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Teacher Punished For Telling Students About Constitutional Rights

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The issue is the teacher was wrong. The Fifth guarantees not being compelled to testify against one's self if it may criminally incriminate them. As, per the supreme court in Minnesota v. Murphy:

"a state may validly insist on answers to even incriminating questions ... as long as it recognizes that the required answers may not be used in a criminal proceeding and thus eliminates the threat of incrimination"

How does this apply outside of a court of law?

The school is just probing for information which is uncalled for. I would be raising hell at the school, school committee meetings, etc...until I got some answers. If money was the answer, I would be voting different people into the seat next time around.
 
I see it as the other way around. Even if school law prevents them from self incrimination, the 5th Amendment still takes precedence, and they should still have the right to refuse to answer.

Why do they want to know then, if the information cannot be used?

If they want to get a general idea if say, drugs, are a problem, then make it anonymous. Problem solved.

Good on this teacher and shame on the school board.

You're missing the point, as wolfe explained earlier. If you cannot incriminate yourself the 5th amendment doesn't apply.
 
You're missing the point, as wolfe explained earlier. If you cannot incriminate yourself the 5th amendment doesn't apply.

That has NOT been established as an actual fact by anyone in this thread. Sorry, but I am not going to read a 700 page .pdf just to find that doesn't even prove the point stated.

Cops are allowed to lie to you to get you to confess something and incriminate yourself, I wouldn't put it past a school principal to do the same thing.
 
That has NOT been established as an actual fact by anyone in this thread. Sorry, but I am not going to read a 700 page .pdf just to find that doesn't even prove the point stated.

Cops are allowed to lie to you to get you to confess something and incriminate yourself, I wouldn't put it past a school principal to do the same thing.

I think at this point it would be more accurate to say you simply don't want to learn whether it's been established as fact. Your claim that it has NOT is simply your opinion as you have ignored educating yourself.
 
That has NOT been established as an actual fact by anyone in this thread. Sorry, but I am not going to read a 700 page .pdf just to find that doesn't even prove the point stated.

Cops are allowed to lie to you to get you to confess something and incriminate yourself, I wouldn't put it past a school principal to do the same thing.

Ok. Your argument is "I don't know and I don't want to find out." it seems odd to be so emphatic about something when you aren't willing to bother to see if it is warranted.
 
there is no such thing as anonymous on anything handwritten in a classroom.

if anyone is indterested in removing that anonymity a si mple handwriting cross comparison would do. also, "school rules" will not protect students from self-incrimination. if unlawful activity were revealed on the pseudo-anonymous survey how hard would it be for a police officer to come to school and conduct an interview.

that info is none of the government's fucking business
 
Ok. Your argument is "I don't know and I don't want to find out." it seems odd to be so emphatic about something when you aren't willing to bother to see if it is warranted.

I read it, it's well stated with solid conclusions but the two of you are overstating what it says. The authors make it clear that it is their opinion that such a statement wouldn't survive a fifth amendment challenge.

It is not an automatic guarantee. It's a legal strategy.
 
Ok. Your argument is "I don't know and I don't want to find out." it seems odd to be so emphatic about something when you aren't willing to bother to see if it is warranted.

No, it isn't. My argument is that my investment in this thread doesn't warrant spending 10 hours of my life reading over 700 pages of text. If the text clearly proves the point being made, you or others could provide specific pages explaining it so. Thus far this hasn't occurred.
 
From the text under discussion:

a student may assert the fifth
amendment in any proceeding where the misconduct may subject
the student to criminal prosecution

Pretty clear to me. 5th amendment may be used. There is no ambiguity or question here.

Further down:

if officials grant the student
immunity from criminal prosecution, perhaps school officials then
may compel the student to speak under penalty of being suspended or expelled for remaining silent

Note the usage of weasel-words, "if" and "perhaps" The author of the pdf isn't very confident in what he is writing, it's obviously just an opinion and not an actual fact.
 
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The issue is the teacher was wrong. The Fifth guarantees not being compelled to testify against one's self if it may criminally incriminate them. As, per the supreme court in Minnesota v. Murphy:

"a state may validly insist on answers to even incriminating questions ... as long as it recognizes that the required answers may not be used in a criminal proceeding and thus eliminates the threat of incrimination"

Since there was no threat of incrimination, they had no constitutionally protected right to not answer and so when he told them they didn't have to, he was a, wrong, and b, in violation of school policy. It wasn't that he told them they have fifth amendment rights, it was that he stepped out of line in implicitly telling them they didn't have to answer the survey, when, in fact, they did.

http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/FederalCourts/PPS/Fedprob/2011-06/06_looking.html

They have to invoke, it's not automatic.

Also this case was involving probation and rules requiring truthful answers under penalty probation revocation.

It's unclear if the same case law would even apply to a voluntary survey.
 
From the text under discussion:

Pretty clear to me. 5th amendment may be used. There is no ambiguity or question here.

Except that the article is stating there is legislation on the books that precludes this information being used in a criminal prosecution. If that's the case you're absolutely right there is no ambiguity or question here; the 5th amendment could not be used.

I don't have strong feelings either way, I just find it really weird that people are flipping out about something that they themselves admit they have no idea if they have a reason to be outraged about it. I imagine some people are just addicted to outrage.
 
Except that the article is stating there is legislation on the books that precludes this information being used in a criminal prosecution. If that's the case you're absolutely right there is no ambiguity or question here; the 5th amendment could not be used.

I don't have strong feelings either way, I just find it really weird that people are flipping out about something that they themselves admit they have no idea if they have a reason to be outraged about it. I imagine some people are just addicted to outrage.

No one has cited the legislation.

Until they do and we can review it, your position is ignorant.
 
No one has cited the legislation.

Until they do and we can review it, your position is ignorant.

My position is that people should know if there's something to be outraged about before being outraged.

Choosing to be outraged unless others hold your hand and show you why you shouldn't be is ignorant. Again though, people seem to enjoy feeling outraged and indignant.
 
True, but not criminally incriminating which is where the 5th comes in. Criminally is they key word as interpreted by the Supreme Court.


Perhaps, perhaps not. It would depend on how he did it. Either way, implying they have the option to not give the school the information it is requesting is against school policy, clearly.

Regardless of possible criminal incrimination, the information on the survey could be used against the student in civil proceedings as well as to force the student into counseling or to be monitored, or be subjected to drug screening and so forth.

The teacher should be commended for informing the students of their rights. Every parent should tell the student NEVER to fill out anything personal or that is not public information unless it's been vetted by the parent.
 
Regardless of possible criminal incrimination, the information on the survey could be used against the student in civil proceedings as well as to force the student into counseling or to be monitored, or be subjected to drug screening and so forth.

The teacher should be commended for informing the students of their rights. Every parent should tell the student NEVER to fill out anything personal or that is not public information unless it's been vetted by the parent.

The 5th amendment does not protect you from civil liability. While the teacher would be serving his students well by telling them to guard their personal information, telling them to do so because of the 5th amendment would just be telling his students wrong information. Thinking that they somehow could do that could have adverse consequences down the road.
 
If that's the case you're absolutely right there is no ambiguity or question here; the 5th amendment could not be used.

I don't understand how you can take a statement that includes the word "perhaps" and claim there is no ambiguity.

Do you know what 'perhaps' means? It means the author isn't even sure of what he is writing, it means there is ambiguity, it means there is a question as to whether it is 100% accurate or not.

Also, it's very much irrelevant in my opinion. What do you think a cop does when he has inadmissible evidence that someone is guilty of a crime? It just makes him look that much harder for admissible evidence, because he knows the person is guilty he just can't legally prove it. Even if your statement made in school on the survey can't directly incriminate you, it can lead to further investigations that will.

You ever watch this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

The same applies to school administrators, they can be just as bad as police.
 
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My position is that people should know if there's something to be outraged about before being outraged.

Choosing to be outraged unless others hold your hand and show you why you shouldn't be is ignorant. Again though, people seem to enjoy feeling outraged and indignant.

There is something to be outraged about. A teacher is being disciplined for teaching his students about their constitutional rights.

A real world example no less.

That part is not in dispute. What is in dispute is whether or not the 5th is applicable. My position is that it is unless you have specific reasons why it isn't in this situation. That is consistent with case law. Therefore, the onus is on those of you who are claiming the 5th is not applicable to prove it.

The principal doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. It's a law one minute and a school policy the next. Again, until it's cited so we can look at it how can we determine if those children would actually be protected?

And I doubt that a state law would truly protect any child, since the federal government often does assert jurisdiction and try people under federal statutes for crimes that are legal under state laws. See US v Hai Manh Do, the judge in that case clearly stated that Colorado laws do not apply to federal law. The point to this: what if on one of these surveys a student confessed to growing and selling marijuana? It's not really that far fetched.
 
No, the SCOTUS has ruled that students in school do have 5th Amendment protections, and that most Constitutional protections apply to minors in school. What I'm saying is that the Fifth Amendment privilege does not apply where it isn't possible to use their statement against them in court. What the superintendent is claiming here is that there is a law which says when students answer these kinds of surveys in school, whatever they say can't be used against them. This in turn means that they couldn't legally incriminate themselves, and hence they don't have the right to refuse to answer the questions. If no such law existed and in fact their answers could be used against them, THEN the teacher would be correct to advise them of this. So the entire issue turns on whether the superintendent is correct about the law here. If he's correct, then all this teacher did was advise them on a right which didn't apply, and cause them to fear something which they had no reason to fear.

That said, even assuming the law is as the District says it is, the school should have stated this on the survey itself, to avoid confusion of the students and their teacher. It might be unfair to sanction the teacher if he honestly believed that the students were in jeopardy of incriminating themselves, even if he was incorrect.


Fifth amendment doesn't apply when one is given immunity from prosecution and that is usually granted by a judge in court or congress, until that happens the superintendent can claim whatever he wants since he isn't the one granting immunity.
 
Whether the 5th applies or not for the students not answering the survey is completely irrelevant. The teacher is there to teach. He taught his students that they have a 5th amendment right. That they are not legally bound to produce evidence which may incriminate themselves under any circumstance. How a teacher doing his job should be punished is beyond stupid. Arguing the semantics of the application of the 5th in this thread is stupid as well.
 
The issue is the teacher was wrong. The Fifth guarantees not being compelled to testify against one's self if it may criminally incriminate them. As, per the supreme court in Minnesota v. Murphy:

"a state may validly insist on answers to even incriminating questions ... as long as it recognizes that the required answers may not be used in a criminal proceeding and thus eliminates the threat of incrimination"

Since there was no threat of incrimination, they had no constitutionally protected right to not answer and so when he told them they didn't have to, he was a, wrong, and b, in violation of school policy. It wasn't that he told them they have fifth amendment rights, it was that he stepped out of line in implicitly telling them they didn't have to answer the survey, when, in fact, they did.

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ppra/index.html

The US Dept of Education acknowledges that these materials could lead to self incrimination, why can't you?
 
If there was the option to opt out why would it matter if they took the survey or not? Why would the 5th matter when the survey is optional?
 
If it was anonymous and Multiple Choice/Fill in the Circle(aka, no handwriting/printing), I would see no problem with it. Regardless of any legal protections, once someone puts forth that information, it puts them at risk of consequence. If all that's desired is data on the group as a whole, then there is no reason for Individuals to be identifiable.
 
Hmm...I thought the OP didnt believe in fifth amendment rights?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35052690&postcount=564

Quote: Originally Posted by incorruptible
Originally Posted by HomerJS
She should be fired but there is an ongoing criminal investigation so taking 5th is appropriate.
If she had anything to do with this and it looks like she very much did then she must answer. This woman gets paid by the taxpayer.


More hypocrisy by our resident piece of shit idiot poster, incorruptible.
 
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