Syria wants the middle east a WMD free area

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by: oLLie
If you guys are so afraid of Israel's WMDs, why don't we see Israel trying to invade or attack its neighbors? I just see Israel trying to assert its right to exist. Some of you seem to think Israel has other plans... enlighten me.

Exactly. Israel is surrounded on all sides by nations that would like to wipe it out of existence. It would be so overwhelmed so quickly if it did not have nuclear weapons. Israel's nukes create a balance of power in the region that Syria would like to destroy.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Tiger

They are going to put forth a proposal for the UN security council for the middle east to be a wmd free area.

The Iraq fiasco has proven that the UN and any treaty or resolution it puts forth isn't worth the paper it's written on. They're un-enforceable and thus useless. I wouldn't leave the security of any country up to the "good will" of the UN. It's suicide. It's an obvious ploy to disarm and nueter Israel.

With Iraq taken out of the equation, Egypt firmly in our camp and Jordan being a toothless dog who does Israel need to really fear now for their existence,Syria? The world witnessed how pathetic Iraq's Army was and they were head and shoulders above Syria's

 

[Tiger]

Egypt firmly in our camp and Jordan being a toothless dog who does Israel need to really fear now for their existence,Syria?

Your assuming those countries will remain as they are.
Egypt has a growing and recently more vocal fundamentalist faction. So does Jordan.
The power of the "Arab Street" and islamic fundamentalism shouldn't be ignored. All those countries are ripe for Islamic revolution ala Iran and the Taliban in Afganistan.

 

[SnapIT]

Originally posted by: Tiger

Egypt firmly in our camp and Jordan being a toothless dog who does Israel need to really fear now for their existence,Syria?

Your assuming those countries will remain as they are.
Egypt has a growing and recently more vocal fundamentalist faction. So does Jordan.
The power of the "Arab Street" and islamic fundamentalism shouldn't be ignored. All those countries are ripe for Islamic revolution ala Iran and the Taliban in Afganistan.

So what is your solution?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Tiger

Egypt firmly in our camp and Jordan being a toothless dog who does Israel need to really fear now for their existence,Syria?

Your assuming those countries will remain as they are.
Egypt has a growing and recently more vocal fundamentalist faction. So does Jordan.
The power of the "Arab Street" and islamic fundamentalism shouldn't be ignored. All those countries are ripe for Islamic revolution ala Iran and the Taliban in Afganistan.

Throw water on the Fundies and they all run for cover!

 

[SnapIT]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Tiger

Egypt firmly in our camp and Jordan being a toothless dog who does Israel need to really fear now for their existence,Syria?

Your assuming those countries will remain as they are.
Egypt has a growing and recently more vocal fundamentalist faction. So does Jordan.
The power of the "Arab Street" and islamic fundamentalism shouldn't be ignored. All those countries are ripe for Islamic revolution ala Iran and the Taliban in Afganistan.

Throw water on the Fundies and they all run for cover!

Don't they melt?

Or is that vampires... hmmmm

 

[Red Dawn]

When we re-arm the Iraqi Army would it be possible to install self destruct mechanisms on their guns and tanks that can be remotely controlled and kept secret from them? If so I think we need to do this with all weapons we give/sell to the Middle Eastern Countries.

 

[SnapIT]

N/M

 

[Tiger]

My solution would be continued democratization of the area although I'm not confident any Islamic nation can have US style separation of church and state democracy. I think it's ironic as hell that Israel is the only true democracy in the area. It begs the question, can Arabs rule themselves without theocracy or autocracy?

 

[SnapIT]

Originally posted by: Tiger
My solution would be continued democratization of the area although I'm not confident any Islamic nation can have US style separation of church and state democracy. I think it's ironic as hell that Israel is the only true democracy in the area. It begs the question, can Arabs rule themselves without theocracy or autocracy?

And you really think that is going to happen just by itself?

It's ironic that the MOST aggresive nation in the area is not a muslim nation, no?

Which country, in the middle east, occupies land that belongs to other countries at this point?

So can jews rule themselves without theocracy or autocracy? (read the thread and my posts before you start screaming about anti-semitism)

 

[drewshin]

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate

Originally posted by: oLLie
If you guys are so afraid of Israel's WMDs, why don't we see Israel trying to invade or attack its neighbors? I just see Israel trying to assert its right to exist. Some of you seem to think Israel has other plans... enlighten me.

Exactly. Israel is surrounded on all sides by nations that would like to wipe it out of existence. It would be so overwhelmed so quickly if it did not have nuclear weapons. Israel's nukes create a balance of power in the region that Syria would like to destroy.

you obviously havent read your history books, name one battle that an arab country has even come close to winning with israel in the last 30 years. i just read where syria attacked israel in the early 80's with their 70 plane air force. result? syria lost 70 planes, israel none, israel also destroyed their air defense system for good measure. sure, they've got manpower, but most of their equipment is antiquated 60's/70's russian equipment. and as we've seen in the last few wars, air superiority seems to be the most important thing.
and tell me, you're so afraid of arab countries using WMDs, but yet find me proof that an arab country has ever used WMDs on Israel.

 

[Tiger]

Which country, in the middle east, occupies land that belongs to other countries at this point?

What countries?
Please don't bring up Jordan and Syria. Losing land in war is the price you pay for aggression.
The palestinians aren't a country yet and probably never will be with Arafat running their dog and pony show.

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: drewshin

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate

Originally posted by: oLLie
If you guys are so afraid of Israel's WMDs, why don't we see Israel trying to invade or attack its neighbors? I just see Israel trying to assert its right to exist. Some of you seem to think Israel has other plans... enlighten me.

Exactly. Israel is surrounded on all sides by nations that would like to wipe it out of existence. It would be so overwhelmed so quickly if it did not have nuclear weapons. Israel's nukes create a balance of power in the region that Syria would like to destroy.

you obviously havent read your history books, name one battle that an arab country has even come close to winning with israel in the last 30 years. i just read where syria attacked israel in the early 80's with their 70 plane air force. result? syria lost 70 planes, israel none, israel also destroyed their air defense system for good measure. sure, they've got manpower, but most of their equipment is antiquated 60's/70's russian equipment. and as we've seen in the last few wars, air superiority seems to be the most important thing.
and tell me, you're so afraid of arab countries using WMDs, but yet find me proof that an arab country has ever used WMDs on Israel.

You need to brush up a bit on the Arab / Israeli wars:

On October 6, 1973 ? Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar ? Egypt and Syria opened a coordinated surprise attack against Israel. The equivalent of the total forces of NATO in Europe were mobilized on Israel's borders. On the Golan Heights, approximately 180 Israeli tanks faced an onslaught of 1,400 Syrian tanks. Along the Suez Canal, fewer than 500 Israeli defenders were attacked by 80,000 Egyptians.

At least nine Arab states, including four non-Middle Eastern nations, actively aided the Egyptian-Syrian war effort.

Israel came within a hair's breadth of being destroyed. In fact, if the Arabs weren't practicing Soviet tactics, they would have defeated the Israelis.

 

[drewshin]

You need to brush up a bit on the Arab / Israeli wars:

On October 6, 1973 ? Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar ? Egypt and Syria opened a coordinated surprise attack against Israel. The equivalent of the total forces of NATO in Europe were mobilized on Israel's borders. On the Golan Heights, approximately 180 Israeli tanks faced an onslaught of 1,400 Syrian tanks. Along the Suez Canal, fewer than 500 Israeli defenders were attacked by 80,000 Egyptians.

At least nine Arab states, including four non-Middle Eastern nations, actively aided the Egyptian-Syrian war effort.

Israel came within a hair's breadth of being destroyed. In fact, if the Arabs weren't practicing Soviet tactics, they would have defeated the Israelis.

sorry, this fell within my 30 year time limit

and of course, what does syria have now, they have mainly the SAME tanks that they had 30 years ago, whereas Israel has all new weaponry. if 500 israeli defenders were able to hold off 80,000 egyptians in 1973, what makes you think that egypt and syria has any chance now? of course the article you mentioned above doesnt mention anything about israeli air superiority, israel could take out the infrastructure of these countries in a couple of days. and if things started going badly, you've always got the u.s. to help you

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: SnapIT

Originally posted by: Tiger
My solution would be continued democratization of the area although I'm not confident any Islamic nation can have US style separation of church and state democracy. I think it's ironic as hell that Israel is the only true democracy in the area. It begs the question, can Arabs rule themselves without theocracy or autocracy?

And you really think that is going to happen just by itself?

It's ironic that the MOST aggresive nation in the area is not a muslim nation, no?

Which country, in the middle east, occupies land that belongs to other countries at this point?

So can jews rule themselves without theocracy or autocracy? (read the thread and my posts before you start screaming about anti-semitism)

SnapIT - are you serious? Why does Israel occupy Palestinian and Syrian land? They once occupied Egyptian land also and I know you are well aware of why that land was taken and of how that land was returned to the Egyptians.

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: drewshin

You need to brush up a bit on the Arab / Israeli wars:

On October 6, 1973 ? Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar ? Egypt and Syria opened a coordinated surprise attack against Israel. The equivalent of the total forces of NATO in Europe were mobilized on Israel's borders. On the Golan Heights, approximately 180 Israeli tanks faced an onslaught of 1,400 Syrian tanks. Along the Suez Canal, fewer than 500 Israeli defenders were attacked by 80,000 Egyptians.

At least nine Arab states, including four non-Middle Eastern nations, actively aided the Egyptian-Syrian war effort.

Israel came within a hair's breadth of being destroyed. In fact, if the Arabs weren't practicing Soviet tactics, they would have defeated the Israelis.

sorry, this fell within my 30 year time limit

and of course, what does syria have now, they have mainly the SAME tanks that they had 30 years ago, whereas Israel has all new weaponry. if 500 israeli defenders were able to hold off 80,000 egyptians in 1973, what makes you think that egypt and syria has any chance now? of course the article you mentioned above doesnt mention anything about israeli air superiority, israel could take out the infrastructure of these countries in a couple of days. and if things started going badly, you've always got the u.s. to help you

You need to read up on the Yom Kippur war. The Egyptians and Syrians over-ran the Israelis at all points of the compass except the seaward side. Egypt had installed anti-aircraft batteries, in conflict with the agreement they had signed by the way, and held off Israeli air attacks. Both countries were getting immediate resupply by sea and airlift from the Soviet Union, while the US only resupplied Israel belatedly in the war.

 

[rufruf44]

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: drewshin

You need to brush up a bit on the Arab / Israeli wars:

On October 6, 1973 ? Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar ? Egypt and Syria opened a coordinated surprise attack against Israel. The equivalent of the total forces of NATO in Europe were mobilized on Israel's borders. On the Golan Heights, approximately 180 Israeli tanks faced an onslaught of 1,400 Syrian tanks. Along the Suez Canal, fewer than 500 Israeli defenders were attacked by 80,000 Egyptians.

At least nine Arab states, including four non-Middle Eastern nations, actively aided the Egyptian-Syrian war effort.

Israel came within a hair's breadth of being destroyed. In fact, if the Arabs weren't practicing Soviet tactics, they would have defeated the Israelis.

sorry, this fell within my 30 year time limit

and of course, what does syria have now, they have mainly the SAME tanks that they had 30 years ago, whereas Israel has all new weaponry. if 500 israeli defenders were able to hold off 80,000 egyptians in 1973, what makes you think that egypt and syria has any chance now? of course the article you mentioned above doesnt mention anything about israeli air superiority, israel could take out the infrastructure of these countries in a couple of days. and if things started going badly, you've always got the u.s. to help you

You need to read up on the Yom Kippur war. The Egyptians and Syrians over-ran the Israelis at all points of the compass except the seaward side. Egypt had installed anti-aircraft batteries, in conflict with the agreement they had signed by the way, and held off Israeli air attacks. Both countries were getting immediate resupply by sea and airlift from the Soviet Union, while the US only resupplied Israel belatedly in the war.

It amazes me how Israel can even survive the Yom Kippur war. After almost getting wiped out like that, naturally you would want beef up your armed forces, and be paranoid for a long long time.
I say Israelis should give back the occupied land and let them form a Palestinian country with demiliterized border. The moment the Palestinian or Arabs or whoever cross the border in agression, don't held back and bombard them back to stone age. At least they'll give peace a chance.

 

[drewshin]

You need to read up on the Yom Kippur war. The Egyptians and Syrians over-ran the Israelis at all points of the compass except the seaward side. Egypt had installed anti-aircraft batteries, in conflict with the agreement they had signed by the way, and held off Israeli air attacks. Both countries were getting immediate resupply by sea and airlift from the Soviet Union, while the US only resupplied Israel belatedly in the war.

i dont disagree that they over ran them in the first few days because of the surprise factor, and the fact that israel had trouble mobilizing their troops, but syria barely made it past the golan heights, and egypt barely not much past the bar-lev line. you take the worst possible of circumstances for israel, and they still were able to be victorious. and my point is since then, the odds have even increasingly grown in israel's favor.

here's a good map:
http://focusonjerusalem.com/73map1.html



if you want, let israel keep their nukes, but if you do that, let any country that wants chemical/bio weapons keep those as well. every country has a right to protect themselves in whatever way they can. it would be like the cold war, where both sides are deterred from attacking the other because of the high costs it would involve.

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: drewshin
how many chemical weapons/wmds has any arab country used agains israel? the answer is a big ZERO.

arab countries have been acquiring wmds as a "deterrent" to any israeli attack. they know that they wont be able to match israel with conventional weapons/military, so they have these, it's like they're saying "look, we know you can kick our a$$, but we will use these weapons and make you pay a high cost if you attack us."

even if israel were to get rid of their nukes (which they should, why do they need 200 of them?), they will still be able to beat anyone in the region with little trouble with just their conventional weaponry.

Yes, Israel developed the nukes so as to invade another country. They are the ones who believe their neighbors have no right to exist.

If you were going to use a WMD on a piece of territory you wanted to use later on, chemical weapons are the best choice. No radiation and no anthrax spores in the area for 50 years. It would be stupid to nuke a piece of land that you want to occupy

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: drewshin

if you want, let israel keep their nukes, but if you do that, let any country that wants chemical/bio weapons keep those as well. every country has a right to protect themselves in whatever way they can. it would be like the cold war, where both sides are deterred from attacking the other because of the high costs it would involve.

I agree with you that given the fact Israel has nukes, you can hardly fault the Arabs for trying to counter-balance that. I'm not currently up on what, if any, non-proliferation acts Syria may have signed. If they haven't, I really can't understand why there is any fuss about them having bio or chem weapons. The US may not like it and has every right to try to use its influence to prevent Syria from obtaining them, but that should be as far as it goes.

 

[SnapIT]

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: drewshin

You need to brush up a bit on the Arab / Israeli wars:

On October 6, 1973 ? Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar ? Egypt and Syria opened a coordinated surprise attack against Israel. The equivalent of the total forces of NATO in Europe were mobilized on Israel's borders. On the Golan Heights, approximately 180 Israeli tanks faced an onslaught of 1,400 Syrian tanks. Along the Suez Canal, fewer than 500 Israeli defenders were attacked by 80,000 Egyptians.

At least nine Arab states, including four non-Middle Eastern nations, actively aided the Egyptian-Syrian war effort.

Israel came within a hair's breadth of being destroyed. In fact, if the Arabs weren't practicing Soviet tactics, they would have defeated the Israelis.

sorry, this fell within my 30 year time limit

and of course, what does syria have now, they have mainly the SAME tanks that they had 30 years ago, whereas Israel has all new weaponry. if 500 israeli defenders were able to hold off 80,000 egyptians in 1973, what makes you think that egypt and syria has any chance now? of course the article you mentioned above doesnt mention anything about israeli air superiority, israel could take out the infrastructure of these countries in a couple of days. and if things started going badly, you've always got the u.s. to help you

You need to read up on the Yom Kippur war. The Egyptians and Syrians over-ran the Israelis at all points of the compass except the seaward side. Egypt had installed anti-aircraft batteries, in conflict with the agreement they had signed by the way, and held off Israeli air attacks. Both countries were getting immediate resupply by sea and airlift from the Soviet Union, while the US only resupplied Israel belatedly in the war.

The Golan heights are still occupied... That is Syrian land...

And if i remember correctly, the support in the war was extremely one-sided...

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: SnapIT
Which country, in the middle east, occupies land that belongs to other countries at this point?

Ummm, Syria.
They've occupied Lebanon since 1990.

Which group of people sends suicide bombers into civilian markets to kill as many women and children as possible?

Hint: it's not Israel.

It is very laughable that Syria would make this statement. Groups like Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad have their headquarters in Damascus and training camps in the Bekaa valley.
And Syria has active chem and bio weapons programs. They are not likely to get rid of their Sarin as long as Israel has nukes. And their is no way in hell Israel is getting rid of their nukes. It's the only thing keeping them from being destroyed.

 

[SnapIT]

Originally posted by: Shanti

Originally posted by: SnapIT
Which country, in the middle east, occupies land that belongs to other countries at this point?

Ummm, Syria.
They've occupied Lebanon since 1990.

Which group of people sends suicide bombers into civilian markets to kill as many women and children as possible?

Hint: it's not Israel.

It is very laughable that Syria would make this statement. Groups like Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad have their headquarters in Damascus and training camps in the Bekaa valley.
And Syria has active chem and bio weapons programs. They are not likely to get rid of their Sarin as long as Israel has nukes. And their is no way in hell Israel is getting rid of their nukes. It's the only thing keeping them from being destroyed.

Last time i looked i was not Syria, and i'm the one making that statement at this point...

The thing is, to bring lasting peace to the region, you have to control the most agressive state in the middle east, that would be Israel, NOBODY has ever disputed that fact...

I guess someone could try, and be proven wrong...

 

[NesuD]

This nothing more than a PR play. Syria knows very well that such a proposal has less than a snowballs chance in Saudi Arabia of being agreed to. Syria is currently on the coalitions hot seat. They are only proposing this to give the appearance of being a poor peace loving arab country that is being bullied by the big mean imperialist american conquererors. nothing more than political maneuvering.

 

[NesuD]

Originally posted by: SnapIT

Originally posted by: oLLie
If you guys are so afraid of Israel's WMDs, why don't we see Israel trying to invade or attack its neighbors? I just see Israel trying to assert its right to exist. Some of you seem to think Israel has other plans... enlighten me.

Oh please, do a google on Israel and occupation... Include Syria and the Golan heights to narrow the results down a bit, that is just one example...

Umm if i remember my history correctly Israel took the Golan heights in the 1967 war after they were attacked by Syria among others. Basically the Golan has high strategic value from a military perspective and is held as a defensive measure to prevent the Syrian Army from attacking Israel from there as they did in 1967.