Syria: US and Turkey agree to seize, govern Raqqa

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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
This is the neocon long game

HeHO6EUzoLmkE.gif
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,247
48,444
136
From what I read, Jarablus is hardly a major city, notably smaller than Manbij.

From my understanding Jarablus is an extremely important city. Not because of its population but because of its strategic importance for supply purposes.
 

bguile

Senior member
Nov 30, 2011
529
51
91

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,493
7,547
136
If Putin is controlling the Middle East he's doing an awfully bad job of it.

I was thinking of a Russian angle to play power broker between the two countries.
Syria was prolonged long enough to bring Turkey to the table.
Turkey gets to invade Syria, deal with ISIS and Kurds.
It's not clear, but you think we outplayed Putin by being the ones to offer this to Turkey?

That might make sense, given what I'm now reading of our involvement.
Apparently Biden is over there providing concessions to Turkey...

Biden orders Syrian Kurds to pull back
Speaking at a press conference in Ankara on Wednesday, Biden says Kurdish forces "must move back across the Euphrates River."

He says "they cannot — will not — under any circumstance get American support if they do not keep that commitment."
 

Oric

Senior member
Oct 11, 1999
883
57
91
There are bigger games and plans than the tactical moves we see in Syria this week.

Syria (Essad) plays a survival game, with success, he wants to keep the Mediterranean coast (The Levant) for a smaller Syria.

Russia wants to keep the East Med. ports alive, so they are there. Also they don't want pipelines (Qatar natural gas and N.Iraq Kurdish oil) to reach Europe through Syria

Turkey wanted a Syria without Essad, now that it is impossible, wants a Syria where ethnic groups live like the Caucassus model (small states, regions with self govern), not big blocks like ISIS, YPG ruling over big lands where the locals are not Wahabis or Kurds.

USA wants a big Kurdish State covering N.Iraq, Syria, Turkey and Iran. The first stages were initiated by invading Iraq and creating the super bad guys-ISIS. Now Kurds are portrayed as the perfect future ally in your media. ISIS has outlived its usefullness and when their assistance is cut they will go down quickly, where their vacuum will be filled with the most assisted ethnic group of the region. Very smart planning and execution. If the US-assisted coup were to be succesful last month, Turkey would probably not have moved into Jerablus and the Gulenist government would have given away the SE Turkey to Kurds according to US plan. Now that is delayed by decades, if any.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,493
7,547
136
Now Kurds are portrayed as the perfect future ally in your media.

Perhaps you overestimate our thinking there. It's probably more like "Kurds haven't attacked us yet, so they must be suitable allies who we can arm to fight ISIS". Now that we're giving them orders from Turkey, it's reasonable to think we're not that closely tied to the Kurds as you'd write. We've clearly chosen Turkey over them.

My thoughts are that's fine. Turkey makes a better ally than some tribesmen stuck in the desert. On that note, as an American I did not know about the violence in Southeast Turkey. It was sometime (last year?) during one of Turkey's moves into Iraq to retaliate against the PKK that I learned that the Kurds are not so innocent as ignorance, lack of information, would have me believe.

The Kurd situation is complicated, but only by our desire to avoid violence.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Perhaps you overestimate our thinking there. It's probably more like "Kurds haven't attacked us yet, so they must be suitable allies who we can arm to fight ISIS". Now that we're giving them orders from Turkey, it's reasonable to think we're not that closely tied to the Kurds as you'd write. We've clearly chosen Turkey over them.

My thoughts are that's fine. Turkey makes a better ally than some tribesmen stuck in the desert. On that note, as an American I did not know about the violence in Southeast Turkey. It was sometime (last year?) during one of Turkey's moves into Iraq to retaliate against the PKK that I learned that the Kurds are not so innocent as ignorance, lack of information, would have me believe.

The Kurd situation is complicated, but only by our desire to avoid violence.

They are probably more innocent than the Turks are.

The reason why they are currently our best ally is because they are some of the least crazy people out there.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
They are probably more innocent than the Turks are.

The reason why they are currently our best ally is because they are some of the least crazy people out there.

They can't win so it doesn't matter whether true or not.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Wikileaks emails show the US wants Assad out of power.

We will stay there and continue to destabilize the area until Assad is out of power and Iran has no allies.
We seriously needed Wikileaks to deliver us news that Obama has openly stated?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_vSTozo6kI
 

PlanetJosh

Golden Member
May 6, 2013
1,815
143
106
Here's a recent development apparently just released hours ago - Russia threatens to shoot down any aircraft including American that attack forces loyal to the Syrian government.

https://gma.yahoo.com/russia-warns-...ens-shoot-181512495--abc-news-topstories.html

Just the kind of thing I was hoping for, an escalation that leads to war between the U.S. and Russia. The nuclear WW3 I've been waiting for could be closer than you think. You can try to talk down this new Russian threat and you may be right that it may fizzle out. We'll see.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
Here's a recent development apparently just released hours ago - Russia threatens to shoot down any aircraft including American that attack forces loyal to the Syrian government.

https://gma.yahoo.com/russia-warns-...ens-shoot-181512495--abc-news-topstories.html

Just the kind of thing I was hoping for, an escalation that leads to war between the U.S. and Russia. The nuclear WW3 I've been waiting for could be closer than you think. You can try to talk down this new Russian threat and you may be right that it may fizzle out. We'll see.

That is really going to sting Russia in the ass if they go there.

http://thebulletin.org/
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,493
7,547
136
I think what concerns me the most... the American people have NO anti-war voice this November.
Both major parties are in huge bipartisan agreement to escalate and start a greater war in Syria.

No sane person can look at the United States arming terrorists for regime change in Syria... we started this war... and think we need to militarily oppose Russia. Maybe if we weren't on the side of terrorists... 1: Would not be a war and mass casualty situation in Syria, 2: No refugees, 3: No escalation against Russia.

Who the !@#$ thinks being on the side of terrorists is a good thing?! HELLO, Afghanistan, Bin Laden, September 11th?
Who the !@#$ thinks regime change in Syria is a good thing?! HELLO, Iraq, ISIS, genocide?

Is there not a single person with a brain to lead this country? Maybe a person who knows recent history, learns the mistakes of the past, and dares to do better? Arming terrorists should be opposed. Starting a war in Syria should be opposed. Escalating against Russia should be opposed. As it has acted these past 15 years, the United States should be opposed.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
It's true the US started it, and it's true that we are feeling the blowback, and will be for a very long time, but Putin keeps doubling down on a losing bet here. He can't win against the West. Not militarily, not economically. We have seen this movie before as a drama with USSR, but under Putin it's a tragi-comedy. He and all his henchmen keep their money and their kids in the West.
His country is an economic basket case, totally drained of top technological talent, and reliant on the West for pretty much everything. His strategy of creating a refugee crisis for Europe in retaliation for sanctions has produced problems for Europe, but not much sanctions relief or a change in Ukraine position. Starting a war with NATO, he'll be crushed as a bug.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,952
137
106
Your obama is like Pontius Pilate on this one. The Russians know his "lines in the sand" are liberal bluff..and are going to bomb and roll their way to victory.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-01/russia-warns-us-military-aggression

on Saturday Russia warned the US against carrying out any attacks on Syrian government forces, saying it would have repercussions across the Middle East. The warning comes as government forces captured a hill on the edge of the northern city of Aleppo under the cover of airstrikes.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,952
137
106
...The New York Times previously acquired a taped conversation between the US
Secretary of State and two dozen Syrian civilians from education,
rescue, and medical groups working in rebel-held areas, during a meeting
on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly. “I've argued for use of force. I stood up. I’m the guy who stood up and announced we’re going to attack Assad because of the weapons, and then you know things evolved into a different process,” the Secretary of State said in the tape.
 

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
I'm not sure why we still have people over there, pull our people out. Let them slaughter each other in that region, we really need to stop wasting lives and tax dollars on useless regions like that.

Exactly... The Middle east has been a power keg literally since history began. There is no fixing it, it is a bag of cats and the only thing we should be doing is staying out of it. If there were some solution, I would say go for it, but you cant fix it. There is nothing the US or the west can do to fix o r even help. All we do is get involved, piss people off and then become a target of hatred ourselves as if it's our fault, thus a negative gain. We need to GTFO now.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,247
48,444
136
I think what concerns me the most... the American people have NO anti-war voice this November.
Both major parties are in huge bipartisan agreement to escalate and start a greater war in Syria.

No sane person can look at the United States arming terrorists for regime change in Syria... we started this war... and think we need to militarily oppose Russia. Maybe if we weren't on the side of terrorists... 1: Would not be a war and mass casualty situation in Syria, 2: No refugees, 3: No escalation against Russia.

This is a truly bizarre recounting of the war in Syria. Let's be 100% clear, the US did not start this war in any way, shape, or form. No sane person can make this argument. Have you been reading RT again?

We should absolutely be taking in refugees, but I think the better route to contain Russian aggression in Syria is to arm the rebels with some effective anti-air weapons. Let's see if Russia's enthusiasm for committing war crimes goes down after they start losing bombers. I think we can both agree that containing Russian aggression is an important goal in Syria, no? I mean Russia has become a rogue state in recent years, committing act after act of wanton, unprovoked aggression. If you opposed US interventions in Iraq, Libya, etc then you should be absolutely up in arms about Russia and ready to oppose them.

Who the !@#$ thinks being on the side of terrorists is a good thing?! HELLO, Afghanistan, Bin Laden, September 11th?
Who the !@#$ thinks regime change in Syria is a good thing?! HELLO, Iraq, ISIS, genocide?

Is there not a single person with a brain to lead this country? Maybe a person who knows recent history, learns the mistakes of the past, and dares to do better? Arming terrorists should be opposed. Starting a war in Syria should be opposed. Escalating against Russia should be opposed. As it has acted these past 15 years, the United States should be opposed.

Regime change in Syria is probably inevitable as Assad is simply no longer able to effectively govern the country. The only question now is how we go about it. Saying the Syrian rebels are all terrorists is simply adopting the propaganda of the Russian and Syrian governments. You're better than that, don't be duped by propaganda.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
It's true the US started it, and it's true that we are feeling the blowback, and will be for a very long time, but Putin keeps doubling down on a losing bet here. He can't win against the West. Not militarily, not economically. We have seen this movie before as a drama with USSR, but under Putin it's a tragi-comedy. He and all his henchmen keep their money and their kids in the West.

His country is an economic basket case, totally drained of top technological talent, and reliant on the West for pretty much everything. His strategy of creating a refugee crisis for Europe in retaliation for sanctions has produced problems for Europe, but not much sanctions relief or a change in Ukraine position. Starting a war with NATO, he'll be crushed as a bug.

We didnt actually start it at all, but we jumped in right away.

As for Putin, the current Russian MO is obviously self-imploding and not sustainable.

I was thinking, the dual Syrian-Russian operations in Syria that have been dropping chemical weapons, those are war crimes, and this is the perfect opportunity for more, even harsher sanctions.