Switzerland will vote on $25 min wage on May 18th

[_Rick_]

Thanks for quoting that one.
Prices for food all over Europe do not reflect true prices anyway. Agricultural produce at least is massively subsidized in the EU, and I imagine Switzerland can not play the odd man out under those circumstances. When these prices are already artificial, artificial wages will probably have less impact. And again, being a landlocked country with 4 (allow me to dismiss Liechtenstein) neighboring countries where the cost of living is lower -- but so are wages -- means that there is a lot of pressure from foreign workers. This breaks a national supply-demand logic, and the current immigration limit is not an ideal measure to combat this. By raising minimum wage to a level that allows a Swiss person to live off it, means that they will not be undercut by foreign supply anymore.

If this measure passes, it will not only be a leftist measure to reduce poverty, but also a protectionist measure to prop up the domestic job market.

 

[biostud]

the accords for my field generally puts minimum wage at almost $30 for me, and I'm a student. lots of companies try to get students work for peanuts, had one try to tell me as a student worker I was only covered by the student worker accord, but as an IT worker I'm pretty much always covered by the IT accord for the company so I called up PROSA (my union) and boom 50% raise.

yeah, I know but lowest wages for unskilled labor is around $20, when you compare all professions.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Except that basic laws of supply and demand state that the cost of food and other services will increase as well.

That is not a law, it is a pathetic theory based on antiquated data and the excuse the real takers use to gouge people everytime their "costs" go up while they ship more and more jobs out of this country. Somehow, their "costs" still go up while they pay slave wages in impoverished countries. Why do you think that is?

Yeah, I know, capitalism or some other bullshit excuse will be the answer. pfft

 

[Murloc]

Thanks for quoting that one.
Prices for food all over Europe do not reflect true prices anyway. Agricultural produce at least is massively subsidized in the EU, and I imagine Switzerland can not play the odd man out under those circumstances. When these prices are already artificial, artificial wages will probably have less impact. And again, being a landlocked country with 4 (allow me to dismiss Liechtenstein) neighboring countries where the cost of living is lower -- but so are wages -- means that there is a lot of pressure from foreign workers. This breaks a national supply-demand logic, and the current immigration limit is not an ideal measure to combat this. By raising minimum wage to a level that allows a Swiss person to live off it, means that they will not be undercut by foreign supply anymore.

If this measure passes, it will not only be a leftist measure to reduce poverty, but also a protectionist measure to prop up the domestic job market.

Non-EU countries have their own agricultural policy, and it always includes massive subsidies
There also are import tariffs.

There is no immigration limit currently, that was a constitutional change and there's 3 years to come up with a law.

Your reasoning is right but I think 3k would be enough to undercut foreign workers without risking to hurt businesses.

 

[justoh]

You can actually almost compare francs to dollars directly, especially if you live in nyc or San Fran, etc. For most things. The costs are virtually identical, with a different currency tag. Clearly anything involving labor directly... Also, meat and gas is noticeably more. Some stuff like beer is much cheaper. I don't know what the subway costs but you can ride all of zurich city for about $100 per month (buses, trains, trams,boats). Point is only that the cost of living in Switzerland isn't as high as you think, and 4000chf isn't nothing or impossible to compare. I'd say it's like earning maybe 3500 in nyc, as a minimum.....mcdonalds employee or whatever. So much more purchasing power?

 

[Thebobo]

Good for them seems like a nice place to live

 

[TROLLERCAUST]

Non-EU countries have their own agricultural policy, and it always includes massive subsidies
There also are import tariffs.

The EU is a massive farmer subsidy union. Half of EU's budjet goes to agricultural subsidies. Imho subsidies need to go. Export subsidies should be the first to go. The taxpayers pay that food is exported into poorer countries messing up their economy. It's disgusting exploitation and needs to stop. It's wrong for EU-citizens and wrong for the citizens of the poorer countries. When I'm buying oranges, grapes, tomatoes, foodstuff that doesn't grow here, I try to choose African goods, not EU. With many staples I have no choice but to choose something grown in the EU. Poorer countries can't compete well with our subsided markets. It sucks. The greatest humanitarian aid the EU could do for Africa is to open up its markets for them.

As for the topic at hand, I don't approve. I don't see the point of national minimum wages. In the article it said that over 90 % of Swiss people already made over the proposed minimum wage so it has no direct affect on them. What about those who make less than the proposed minimum wage? I'm really skeptical this would be any good for anyone. Finland has no national minimum wage. Just a couple of months ago it was in the news that a lobbying group for entrepreneurs was in favour of implementing a minimum wage. That tells me enough. If the entrepreneurs are in favour it must suck for the employees. (I kid )

I'm pretty sure it must have something to do with taking power away from the unions. Over here the unions and entrepreneurs set up minimum wages for most fields of professions. Union minimum wages apply to us outside of unions as well. Entrepreneurs want to get rid of this too and I agree with them. Imho let people negotiate their own wages.

 

[silverpig]

What a bunch of idiots. Sure their minimum wage earners might soon be making $25 or more an hour, but the government probably walks away with 50% to pay for all the healthcare/college/mater/paternity leave. Americans are far better off. At least the $7.25 Americans make here is hardly taxed at all in comparison.

50% of $25 is $12.50 which is greater than 100% of $7.25.

And they get healthcare, college, and parental leave.

 

[realibrad]

That is not a law, it is a pathetic theory based on antiquated data and the excuse the real takers use to gouge people everytime their "costs" go up while they ship more and more jobs out of this country. Somehow, their "costs" still go up while they pay slave wages in impoverished countries. Why do you think that is?

Yeah, I know, capitalism or some other bullshit excuse will be the answer. pfft

Perhaps you should look into the words you are using.

Fact: In science, an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as “true.” Truth in science, however, is never final and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow.

Hypothesis: A tentative statement about the natural world leading to deductions that can be tested. If the deductions are verified, the hypothesis is provisionally corroborated. If the deductions are incorrect, the original hypothesis is proved false and must be abandoned or modified. Hypotheses can be used to build more complex inferences and explanations.

Law: A descriptive generalization about how some aspect of the natural world behaves under stated circumstances.

Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.

The Law of supply and demand still holds up as a law. The economy cannot be arm chair quarterback'ed.

Answer this simple question. What would happen to those workers who are paid the "Slave Wage" if it was taken away? Oh, how much better it would be to pay a first world worker vs the poor person. The fact is, that poor person is only working because that job was exported. If it had not been, then what would they be doing for income?

 

[Murloc]

50% of $25 is $12.50 which is greater than 100% of $7.25.

And they get healthcare, college, and parental leave.

healthcare is separate, the insurance is private but the basic package is compulsory, subsidized only if you're poor.

 

[Veliko]

Perhaps you should look into the words you are using.

Fact: In science

We aren't talking about science so your attempt at making yourself look intelligent has backfired somewhat.

 

[PingviN]

I know a swede that makes $12/hr working at McDs.

Swedes make $16/h at McDonalds during regular hours.

He has to work 2 hours just to pay for the bus to and from work. Probably 3 after taxes.

Assuming you don't work any evenings or weekends (which you usually do when you're in the food service industry), you make roughly $2100/month.

30 days of collective transportation costs $120. You have to work about 15-20 minutes a day to make up for transportation costs.

 

[realibrad]

We aren't talking about science so your attempt at making yourself look intelligent has backfired somewhat.

Actually...we are. Economics is a science, and the basis for his argument comes from his economic ideas. The Law of Supply and Demand is an economic idea, which is then linked to his ideas.

You may think science is all about stars and space, but its actually not.

Google definition of science -the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

Also, my post was not to make myself look intelligent. I enjoy testing my knowledge and beliefs against others to test myself. Its the same as playing a game as a test of ones skills. I have little doubt that others may engage in activity you have described.

 

[Veliko]

Actually...we are. Economics is a science

No it isn't.

A lot of economists may well be failed scientists who get their Excel formulas in a muddle but that doesn't make economics a science.

Also, my post was not to make myself look intelligent. I enjoy testing my knowledge and beliefs against others to test myself. Its the same as playing a game as a test of ones skills. I have little doubt that others may engage in activity you have described.

Your lack of self awareness is something to behold.

 

[realibrad]

No it isn't.

A lot of economists may well be failed scientists who get their Excel formulas in a muddle but that doesn't make economics a science.



Your lack of self awareness is something to behold.

Economics is a science, as long as you don't wrap it in something its not. Economics is a mix of Natural and Formal science. I don't really understand how you can dispute that. If you are making the argument that Russ Roberts makes, then I think you misunderstand him. If I am misunderstanding then please explain, but as far as I can tell Economics falls under Science.

As for my lack of self awareness, it would be impossible to prove/disprove a negative. You are accusing me of trying to "look smart," and I believe I am not. How would it be possible to prove I am not not doing/being something?

 

[norseamd]

No it isn't. A lot of economists may well be failed scientists who get their Excel formulas in a muddle but that doesn't make economics a science.

yes it is a science

 

[PingviN]

No it isn't.

It really is.

 

[Newell Steamer]

Some of you guys would love living in Switzerland.

Especially the SVP; https://www.google.com/search?q=svp...y4GQBw&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1680&bih=932

 

[realibrad]

Some of you guys would love living in Switzerland.

Especially the SVP; https://www.google.com/search?q=svp...y4GQBw&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1680&bih=932

I would imagine there are racists in all countries.

If the SVP's argument was that immigration should be limited so as to not bankrupt social programs, then I agree. If its just about keeping the country "Pure" then I dont. If their argument was that they should limit the extent of social programs and then they would let in more immigrants, then I agree.

Dumb people are everywhere, and the question is how can one know if they are somewhere?

 

[drebo]

'Basic' laws are useless when it comes to discussing what happens in the wider economy as a whole.

What you've described is an oft-predicted consequence of the minimum wage yet it doesn't happen.

Are you really going to try to tell me that prices are not higher now than they were before minimum wage?

Are you going to try to tell me that if a person has 20% more money they will not buy 20% more shit?

I'm not talking about supply-side shit here. I'm talking about demand.

More people buying more shit creates more demand. Demand raises prices.

The problem is that the difference in price will be proportional to the increase in wages. So the asshole at the bottom gets 20%, the guy who was previously making 20% more than the asshole at the bottom gets 0%. He actually becomes POORER.

The dollar amount is irrelevant. What is important is proportional buying power.

Progressives claim to want to help the middle class. Raising the minimum wage does not do that. It lowers average buying power.

 

[zephyrprime]

Full Article at Bloomberg


I think this will probably pass. Will be interesting to see how this plays out given all the angst about interfering with min wage in the states.

Other thing that stood out is that 90% of the Swiss worker already earn more than $25 an hour. Purchasing power isn't even on dollar terms to what we would think of as $25 here in the states though, a daily bus pass runs $20 in switzerland.

Here in the states I've read multiple places that more than 25% of workers earn under $10 an hour and I'd wager that close to 75% earn less than $25 an hour.

I wonder how much subsidy money tax payers don't have to foot if workers are able to afford basic needs like health care and food from their wages alone?

According to here, http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...re_Calculator_in_Switzerland-Switzerland.html, a round trip bus fare in Switzerland would be 5 francs which is not nearly 20$. It's 5.65$.

 

[realibrad]

Are you really going to try to tell me that prices are not higher now than they were before minimum wage?.

To be fair, minimum wage has a lot more impact on unemployment than it does with prices. Your argument became really difficult after Milton Friedman.

Net Demand is not increased or decreased in the true meaning of demand. It may seem like an argument of semantics but it actually quite important.

For example, if someone is starving but has no money to buy food, their demand is the same, but the ability to pay is not. If the minimum wage net gave more money to low paid workers, then you would be right. What actually happens though is something quite different.

See, wages are not arbitrary. Raising the wage they make means that many will be fired, as its no longer possible to pay them. If a fast food worker brings a company $10/hr profit and the minimum wage is above that, then the company must fire and not hire. The workers who bring value to the company above the minimum wage will keep their jobs, but the net income of those people vs those who lost their jobs will mean less demand.

now, it gets far more complex when you factor in things like unemployment wages, but I think I made the argument for minimum wage and inflation not being the major factor.

 

[Attic]

According to here, http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...re_Calculator_in_Switzerland-Switzerland.html, a round trip bus fare in Switzerland would be 5 francs which is not nearly 20$. It's 5.65$.

yep, bad example from me.

More detail of purchasing power between USA and Switzerland (not sweeden , i do that mix up all the time)

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Switzerland

Transportation
One-way Ticket (Local Transport) 2.00 $ vs 3.97 $ +98.32 %
Monthly Pass (Regular Price) 66.00 $ vs 79.33 $ +20.20 %
Taxi Start (Normal Tariff) 3.00 $ vs 6.80 $ +126.65 %
Taxi 1km (Normal Tariff) 1.55 $ 4.31 $ vs +177.22 %
Taxi 1hour Waiting (Normal Tariff) 28.20 $ vs 68.00 $ +141.12 %
Gasoline (1 liter) 0.96 $ vs 2.07 $ +114.82 %
Volkswagen Golf 1.4 90 KW Trendline (Or Equivalent New Car) 20,000.00 $ vs 30,881.69 $ +54.41 %

 

[Veliko]

Are you really going to try to tell me that prices are not higher now than they were before minimum wage?

Are you going to try to tell me that if a person has 20% more money they will not buy 20% more shit?

I'm not talking about supply-side shit here. I'm talking about demand.

More people buying more shit creates more demand. Demand raises prices.

People buying 20% more shit is precisely the point of raising/introducing the minimum wage as the increased demand creates jobs.

The problem is that the difference in price will be proportional to the increase in wages. So the asshole at the bottom gets 20%, the guy who was previously making 20% more than the asshole at the bottom gets 0%. He actually becomes POORER.

There will be an inflationary effect, yes, but it won't be on anywhere near a 1:1 basis

Progressives claim to want to help the middle class. Raising the minimum wage does not do that. It lowers average buying power.

Derp derp.

 

[mizzou]

Difficult to say we should be like Europe, but you have to admit their overall quality of life is vastly superior to that in the USA.

It's curious to wonder that due to the economic, social, politicial differences, it's practically impossible to be like France or England when it comes to social justice.