<< Why is he paying child support instead of the OTHER WOMAN? >>
When two people separate, apparently, theres always the man to blame
LoL
When two people separate, apparently, theres always the man to blame
LoL
But how can you say it's not his child? It has 46 chromosomes containing the genetic material that makes the child who it is and half of them came from him. Can you really ignore that fact?
yes... why not? so what if the chromosomes are the same... i don't consider him the parent. if some kid is a adopted, do you then say that the biological parents should pay child support? whoever raised the kid is the kid's parents. otherwise you have to revamp the way all child services work. parents that give a child up for adoption would have to pay child support, men who donate to sperm banks would have to pay child support, women who donate their eggs would have to pay child support, do you see where this is leading? to the child, it makes no difference whose chromosomes they have. what is most important to them is who raises them, those are the peopel they feel closest too. and shouldn't this be about the children?
It's this whole idea of purposely creating a child and then expecting to not have to bear any responsibility for it that bothers me.
well, i think that given the circumstances, you're easily bothered. these two women requested his sperm so that they could raise the child. it's not like the guy was careless and slept around, he was doing these two women a favor so that they could have a child together. the reason why people should accept responsibility for such actions is so that the child has parents. in this case the child does, those two women.
And yes, I agree that the other woman should be the one to pay child support, but I still think he has a moral responsibility in all of this and shouldn't expect to just be able to wash his hands of it. So to speak.
you make it sound like he did something wrong! he was doing these women a favor...
if some crazy broad raped you, would it be acceptable for me to say to you "you shouldn't be able to wash your hands of it"? no... because i'd be treating you like you had done something wrong, whereas you're clearly the victim. and morally, you should be no more obligated to take care of teh child than the rest of society.
i believe that moral responsiblity comes from actions you willingly partake in. not actions that through trickery, deform themselves into something else. for example, if you sold a gun to someone who guaranteed that they would not use it to bring harm on others, that they only wanted it for target practice, and it turned out that they killed somebody with it, would you be morally responsible? no.
yes... why not? so what if the chromosomes are the same... i don't consider him the parent. if some kid is a adopted, do you then say that the biological parents should pay child support? whoever raised the kid is the kid's parents. otherwise you have to revamp the way all child services work. parents that give a child up for adoption would have to pay child support, men who donate to sperm banks would have to pay child support, women who donate their eggs would have to pay child support, do you see where this is leading? to the child, it makes no difference whose chromosomes they have. what is most important to them is who raises them, those are the peopel they feel closest too. and shouldn't this be about the children?
It's this whole idea of purposely creating a child and then expecting to not have to bear any responsibility for it that bothers me.
well, i think that given the circumstances, you're easily bothered. these two women requested his sperm so that they could raise the child. it's not like the guy was careless and slept around, he was doing these two women a favor so that they could have a child together. the reason why people should accept responsibility for such actions is so that the child has parents. in this case the child does, those two women.
And yes, I agree that the other woman should be the one to pay child support, but I still think he has a moral responsibility in all of this and shouldn't expect to just be able to wash his hands of it. So to speak.
you make it sound like he did something wrong! he was doing these women a favor...
if some crazy broad raped you, would it be acceptable for me to say to you "you shouldn't be able to wash your hands of it"? no... because i'd be treating you like you had done something wrong, whereas you're clearly the victim. and morally, you should be no more obligated to take care of teh child than the rest of society.
i believe that moral responsiblity comes from actions you willingly partake in. not actions that through trickery, deform themselves into something else. for example, if you sold a gun to someone who guaranteed that they would not use it to bring harm on others, that they only wanted it for target practice, and it turned out that they killed somebody with it, would you be morally responsible? no.
<< morality has nothing to do with this. he was the biological father but not the emotional one >>
Sounds like a perfect slogan for "Deadbeat Dads Unite".
Oh Lordy, I can't believe how many belly laughs I got out of some of these replies
Just watched a piece on TV about a guy that raised a kid with his wife for about 3 years. Got a divorce and paid support. Then a DNA test concluded he wasn't the father. The court ruled that he should still pay support! That's from right here in the USA! Damn!!!
But I gotta ask one question, that I asked a guy I work with a few years ago. He said he had sown his wild oats on spring break about 20 years before. I said, "damn, you may have a kid or two out there somewhere." He said, "yep, that's right." I asked if that didn't bother him, that his own flesh and blood may be being raised poorly by God knows who? He said it didn't bother him at all! Can't say the same for me. It would KILL me to know or think somebody else was raising my child.
Just wondering what you all think about that?
Just watched a piece on TV about a guy that raised a kid with his wife for about 3 years. Got a divorce and paid support. Then a DNA test concluded he wasn't the father. The court ruled that he should still pay support! That's from right here in the USA! Damn!!!
But I gotta ask one question, that I asked a guy I work with a few years ago. He said he had sown his wild oats on spring break about 20 years before. I said, "damn, you may have a kid or two out there somewhere." He said, "yep, that's right." I asked if that didn't bother him, that his own flesh and blood may be being raised poorly by God knows who? He said it didn't bother him at all! Can't say the same for me. It would KILL me to know or think somebody else was raising my child.
Just wondering what you all think about that?
<< yes... why not? so what if the chromosomes are the same... i don't consider him the parent. if some kid is a adopted, do you then say that the biological parents should pay child support? whoever raised the kid is the kid's parents. otherwise you have to revamp the way all child services work. parents that give a child up for adoption would have to pay child support, men who donate to sperm banks would have to pay child support, women who donate their eggs would have to pay child support, do you see where this is leading? to the child, it makes no difference whose chromosomes they have. what is most important to them is who raises them, those are the peopel they feel closest too. and shouldn't this be about the children? >>
You're so hung up on the money thing. For the nth time, I do not think he should have to pay child support. I was asking if you think he bears any responsibility for bringing this child into the world. Should he care about it? Should he try to protect it if he found out that it was being abused? Should he try to help out financially if it fell into poverty? Should he have any feelings for this child who might look like him or his mother etc. I'm asking if it's okay to be half responsible for bringing a child into the world and then just forget about it. To repeat what you said in the last line above: and shouldn't this be about the children?[/
<< well, i think that given the circumstances, you're easily bothered. these two women requested his sperm so that they could raise the child. it's not like the guy was careless and slept around, he was doing these two women a favor so that they could have a child together. the reason why people should accept responsibility for such actions is so that the child has parents. in this case the child does, those two women. >>
You're correct, but now the child doesn't have two parents. How could he not have forseen problems given the circumstances? It may not be the politically correct view, but I've got to think that this is a very unusual situation and that you'd have to be foolish to think that this was all going to work out just perfectly family-wise.
<< if some crazy broad raped you, would it be acceptable for me to say to you "you shouldn't be able to wash your hands of it"? no... because i'd be treating you like you had done something wrong, whereas you're clearly the victim. and morally, you should be no more obligated to take care of teh child than the rest of society. >>
I have no idea what your point is here. If a guy raped a woman and she had the child, I would think he should be held responsible for it not only criminally, but in a civil court as well.
<< i believe that moral responsiblity comes from actions you willingly partake in. not actions that through trickery, deform themselves into something else. for example, if you sold a gun to someone who guaranteed that they would not use it to bring harm on others, that they only wanted it for target practice, and it turned out that they killed somebody with it, would you be morally responsible? no. >>
You've stated my point precisely in your first sentence. He willlingly took part in creating a child and therefore should feel some responsibility for it. (Not necessarily monetary though) I think there's a big difference between your feelilngs toward a gun and those that you should be expected to feel for a human being that you created. Try to keep in mind that I'm asking about feelings of responsibility here.
Finally, someone understands what I'm asking about!
I should have known that it would take a guy like Ornery to be able to equate fatherhood with something besides a perceived financial burden.
I should have known that it would take a guy like Ornery to be able to equate fatherhood with something besides a perceived financial burden.
Should he care about it? Should he try to protect it if he found out that it was being abused? Should he try to help out financially if it fell into poverty? Should he have any feelings for this child who might look like him or his mother etc. I'm asking if it's okay to be half responsible for bringing a child into the world and then just forget about it.
well, i would say that it's okay, given these circumstances, which is that you have a couple that is unable to have children otherwise, so you donate some sperm and they use it to get pregnant. yes, he should try to protect it, yes he should try to help it if it fell into poverty, but all those things are because he's a member of society, not because he donated the sperm.
You're correct, but now the child doesn't have two parents. How could he not have forseen problems given the circumstances? It may not be the politically correct view, but I've got to think that this is a very unusual situation and that you'd have to be foolish to think that this was all going to work out just perfectly family-wise.
the child still has two parents, but for some reason they feel that this poor bastard should pay. these two women were together for 10 years... if i saw a couple that had been together for that long, i would be inclined to think that the relationship was stable, unless something indicated otherwise.
I have no idea what your point is here. If a guy raped a woman and she had the child, I would think he should be held responsible for it not only criminally, but in a civil court as well.
that wasn't my point would you hold the woman responsible? that's the analogy i'm making.
You've stated my point precisely in your first sentence. He willlingly took part in creating a child and therefore should feel some responsibility for it. (Not necessarily monetary though)
well he should feel responsiblity for donating the sperm, but not for raising the child, since it was agreed that he would not have to raise it, that the two women would.
I think there's a big difference between your feelilngs toward a gun and those that you should be expected to feel for a human being that you created. Try to keep in mind that I'm asking about feelings of responsibility here.
i guess that i just don't feel that people should feel responsible for a child whose only relationship to him is that it came from artifical insemination using his sperm. i suppose this depends on the individual however.
well, i would say that it's okay, given these circumstances, which is that you have a couple that is unable to have children otherwise, so you donate some sperm and they use it to get pregnant. yes, he should try to protect it, yes he should try to help it if it fell into poverty, but all those things are because he's a member of society, not because he donated the sperm.
You're correct, but now the child doesn't have two parents. How could he not have forseen problems given the circumstances? It may not be the politically correct view, but I've got to think that this is a very unusual situation and that you'd have to be foolish to think that this was all going to work out just perfectly family-wise.
the child still has two parents, but for some reason they feel that this poor bastard should pay. these two women were together for 10 years... if i saw a couple that had been together for that long, i would be inclined to think that the relationship was stable, unless something indicated otherwise.
I have no idea what your point is here. If a guy raped a woman and she had the child, I would think he should be held responsible for it not only criminally, but in a civil court as well.
that wasn't my point
would you hold the woman responsible? that's the analogy i'm making.You've stated my point precisely in your first sentence. He willlingly took part in creating a child and therefore should feel some responsibility for it. (Not necessarily monetary though)
well he should feel responsiblity for donating the sperm, but not for raising the child, since it was agreed that he would not have to raise it, that the two women would.
I think there's a big difference between your feelilngs toward a gun and those that you should be expected to feel for a human being that you created. Try to keep in mind that I'm asking about feelings of responsibility here.
i guess that i just don't feel that people should feel responsible for a child whose only relationship to him is that it came from artifical insemination using his sperm. i suppose this depends on the individual however.
<<
You're so hung up on the money thing. For the nth time, I do not think he should have to pay child support. I was asking if you think he bears any responsibility for bringing this child into the world. Should he care about it? Should he try to protect it if he found out that it was being abused? Should he try to help out financially if it fell into poverty? Should he have any feelings for this child who might look like him or his mother etc. I'm asking if it's okay to be half responsible for bringing a child into the world and then just forget about it.
>>
No he does not bear any responsibility unless he chooses to. Considering that society permits lesbian relationships, permits lesbian couples to raise children, permits sperm to be donated; society should also recognize that the sperm donor is not part of the family unit. This is valid not just in the case of lesbians but any couple that has a child from a sperm donor. If the donor feels that he should be further involved and the couple allows it, then fine, but he shouldn't have to feel any moral obligation. On the reverse side, if the couple were still together and the sperm donor had feelings of morality, should he be allowed to interact with the child, just because he feels it is morally right that the child know its biological father, if the couple did not want him to? No, of course not. It has to go both ways.
<< the child still has two parents, but for some reason they feel that this poor bastard should pay. these two women were together for 10 years... if i saw a couple that had been together for that long, i would be inclined to think that the relationship was stable, unless something indicated otherwise. >>
Oops, I didn't see that part about the 10 years. You're right that he could have expected that this could be a stable and long-lasting relationship. I guess he wasn't being as frivolous about this as I was assuming.
I'm sorry if I wasn't as clear about what I was asking as I could have been. I can see where you might think I was trying to say that the guy should be glad to take on the financial responsibility of the child.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
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So, do those think that the man is responsible should be able to prevent an abortion if the woman doesn't want a baby? Or are you saying the woman has all the rights and the man all the responsibilities? Where is the fairness in that?
Hayabusarider, maybe I'm still not making myself clear here.
I'm asking about a man's feelings of responsibility for a child he has fathered.
Let's try it this way. Say that a couple you know ask you to donate sperm so that they can have a child. You say okay because you want to help them. They have a little boy. Several years later, they divorce and the mother gets custody. You hear that she has become a drug addict, she and the child are living in poverty, the child is being beaten by drug dealers who visit the house.
Anyone would feel bad for the child and wish that he wasn't in such a terrible situation, but because you fathered this child who happens to look a lot like you at that age; would you feel any special responsibility for trying to help him to have a better life? Would he matter more to you than just any other child in a bad situation? Or would you be able to just say, hey that's awful, but it's none of my business?
I'm asking about a man's feelings of responsibility for a child he has fathered.
Let's try it this way. Say that a couple you know ask you to donate sperm so that they can have a child. You say okay because you want to help them. They have a little boy. Several years later, they divorce and the mother gets custody. You hear that she has become a drug addict, she and the child are living in poverty, the child is being beaten by drug dealers who visit the house.
Anyone would feel bad for the child and wish that he wasn't in such a terrible situation, but because you fathered this child who happens to look a lot like you at that age; would you feel any special responsibility for trying to help him to have a better life? Would he matter more to you than just any other child in a bad situation? Or would you be able to just say, hey that's awful, but it's none of my business?
So, do those think that the man is responsible should be able to prevent an abortion if the woman doesn't want a baby? Or are you saying the woman has all the rights and the man all the responsibilities? Where is the fairness in that?
Agreed. Without venturing out into the flamin' powder keg of abortion, I've always wondered how much input a man is allowed to give if his partner is pregnant and they disagree on whether they should keep the baby
Agreed. Without venturing out into the flamin' powder keg of abortion, I've always wondered how much input a man is allowed to give if his partner is pregnant and they disagree on whether they should keep the baby
BoberFett
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
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<< I'm asking about a man's feelings of responsibility for a child he has fathered. >>
He didn't "father" jack squat. He didn't have sex. He has no part in raising the child. How has he fathered a child?
In the not so distant future it may happen that someone is cloned without their consent. In your [screwed up] view, that person would be responsible for that child. How wrong is that?
BoberFett
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
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b0mberman
None. The system don't care about what the man wants, as I'm finding out. My ex-girlfriend got pregnant after one careless night. Sh1tty luck, but it happened. I wanted her to get an abortion, she refused. I'm still going to have to pay child support.
And some people still think men run the show? If that was the case, this wouldn't be happening.
None. The system don't care about what the man wants, as I'm finding out. My ex-girlfriend got pregnant after one careless night. Sh1tty luck, but it happened. I wanted her to get an abortion, she refused. I'm still going to have to pay child support.
And some people still think men run the show? If that was the case, this wouldn't be happening.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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Montanafan
Here is my problem with the situation. First of all, the article isn't very detailed, so we don't know the childs circumstance. Nevertheless, for the sake of argument, I will accept your premise and tell you how I would deal with it. If the family situation was really bad, I would accept the child and raise him. No questions. Am I obligated? No. That was the agreement. Do I feel I ought to in this case. Yes, but that is my moral judgement. Now that's is not what is going on here. Let's assume that I was the donor. I am now ordered to pay money. Period. I am not given the chance to remove the child and give him love and a good home. I have to pay money. I have no rights, and all I am is a paycheck. What good does that do? If the hypothetical you proposed were true (drug addiction- although that isn't mentioned as a fact here) all I would be doing is to support someones habit.
So, I ask, what good does the ruling do for the child, except make life easier on the couple that decided to call it quits,
and
what are my paternal rights here?
Here is my problem with the situation. First of all, the article isn't very detailed, so we don't know the childs circumstance. Nevertheless, for the sake of argument, I will accept your premise and tell you how I would deal with it. If the family situation was really bad, I would accept the child and raise him. No questions. Am I obligated? No. That was the agreement. Do I feel I ought to in this case. Yes, but that is my moral judgement. Now that's is not what is going on here. Let's assume that I was the donor. I am now ordered to pay money. Period. I am not given the chance to remove the child and give him love and a good home. I have to pay money. I have no rights, and all I am is a paycheck. What good does that do? If the hypothetical you proposed were true (drug addiction- although that isn't mentioned as a fact here) all I would be doing is to support someones habit.
So, I ask, what good does the ruling do for the child, except make life easier on the couple that decided to call it quits,
and
what are my paternal rights here?
BoberFett, though I totally disagree with your view, I wouldn't call it screwed up. I appreciate that you addressed the question that I was asking.
Your point about his not having sex and therefore not having to take the responsibility for fathering a child was almost a valid point for me, until I read your next post. In that one you did have sex and your ex-girlfriend " got pregnant". How come it's always, she got pregnant, instead of, he got her pregnant?
Anyway, you did have sex and a pregnancy resulted. You've fathered a child and you don't want to take any responsibility for it. I can understand not wanting the financial burden, but how can you talk as if it's all her fault that you're going to have to take on this responsibility? How can you blame the court system for this?
Believe me, I understand that you're in a bad situation. Someone you don't have any feelings for and possibly even despise is going to have a child that will tie you too them for the rest of your lives. You'll have to pay money to them to raise a child that you may have little or no say in raising, depending on how involved you choose to be.
I can understand your anger at the situation, but don't you wonder just a little bit about what this child might be like someday? Don't you think that there's any possibility that this child could be someone you could be proud of someday? Someone who would love you and bring happiness into your life?
And I've got to ask about this one thing you said:
<< And some people still think men run the show? If that was the case, this wouldn't be happening. >>
What wouldn't be happening?
Your point about his not having sex and therefore not having to take the responsibility for fathering a child was almost a valid point for me, until I read your next post. In that one you did have sex and your ex-girlfriend " got pregnant". How come it's always, she got pregnant, instead of, he got her pregnant?
Anyway, you did have sex and a pregnancy resulted. You've fathered a child and you don't want to take any responsibility for it. I can understand not wanting the financial burden, but how can you talk as if it's all her fault that you're going to have to take on this responsibility? How can you blame the court system for this?
Believe me, I understand that you're in a bad situation. Someone you don't have any feelings for and possibly even despise is going to have a child that will tie you too them for the rest of your lives. You'll have to pay money to them to raise a child that you may have little or no say in raising, depending on how involved you choose to be.
I can understand your anger at the situation, but don't you wonder just a little bit about what this child might be like someday? Don't you think that there's any possibility that this child could be someone you could be proud of someday? Someone who would love you and bring happiness into your life?
And I've got to ask about this one thing you said:
<< And some people still think men run the show? If that was the case, this wouldn't be happening. >>
What wouldn't be happening?
Hayabusarider, I agree with you completely.
In the hypothetical case I gave, you said you would feel morally responsible to take care of the child, though not legally obligated to pay any sort of child support to the mother. You would want to take him out of that situation and give him a good life. I agree that paying child support to her would not be in the best interest of the child.
As for the real case in question, you've hit the nail right on the head again, as I see it. The two women in question are just trying to pass their legal responsibilities off on the guy who donated the sperm. They have no right to expect him to be financially responsible and he should feel no legal responsibility to do so.
I guess the question I was asking was so far removed from the actual case that I should have started a new thread about it. Thanks for taking the time to let me clarify myself and answering that question.
In the hypothetical case I gave, you said you would feel morally responsible to take care of the child, though not legally obligated to pay any sort of child support to the mother. You would want to take him out of that situation and give him a good life. I agree that paying child support to her would not be in the best interest of the child.
As for the real case in question, you've hit the nail right on the head again, as I see it. The two women in question are just trying to pass their legal responsibilities off on the guy who donated the sperm. They have no right to expect him to be financially responsible and he should feel no legal responsibility to do so.
I guess the question I was asking was so far removed from the actual case that I should have started a new thread about it. Thanks for taking the time to let me clarify myself and answering that question.
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