[Sweclockers] Nvidia GM200 will be unveiled at GPU Tech conference March 17-20

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Feb 19, 2009
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Ofc revenue would be down, they aren't making much cash (probably no profits) selling R290X with 512 bit bus, 4GB vram, 250W cards for ~$250.

As I've said many times, GCN 2 is their make or break architecture.

ps. It's very bad for AMD, because seeing it in my eyes, as a neutral.. If I were to build a rig now, would I pay $330 for a 970 or ~$250-275 for R290X? I would pay extra for the 970. The reasons are two fold: 1) High electricity costs for me, the cost of ownership is identical after a year of typical gaming. 2) Less heat output is good, cos its bloody hot here.
 
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5150Joker

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Feb 6, 2002
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www.techinferno.com
Ofc revenue would be down, they aren't making much cash (probably no profits) selling R290X with 512 bit bus, 4GB vram, 250W cards for ~$250.

As I've said many times, GCN 2 is their make or break architecture.

ps. It's very bad for AMD, because seeing it in my eyes, as a neutral.. If I were to build a rig now, would I pay $330 for a 970 or ~$250-275 for R290X? I would pay extra for the 970. The reasons are two fold: 1) High electricity costs for me, the cost of ownership is identical after a year of typical gaming. 2) Less heat output is good, cos its bloody hot here.

Pretty much the same reasons I got rid of my Titans. They were hot running cards and even though the performance difference between them and the 980s I bought are marginal at stock clocks, the lower power usage + heat/noise was well worth it. Now even though I avoid AMD GPUs for other reasons (had bad experiences w/them on the laptop side of things for 3 generations), anyone else would consider heat/power/noise just as much as you and I did and pay the premium for NVIDIA.

Hopefully whatever AMD releases is efficient and can scale well or else it's game over for them.
 

Mondozei

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2013
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I think they'll release a Titan 2 at that event. I expect a 990 and 990ti in the summer or slightly later to counter the R300 series high end.

That's what we wish, but economics 101 teaches us that every company wants to maximize profit. And Nvidia knows how to do that better than all of us. If they don't release Titan 2 at the conference, then that means that their calculus is simply different(and more informed) than our wishes, which are frankly based on what we want, not what's good for Nvidia's bottom line ;)

Just like with the Titan, people were cautioned -- don't get a 980 now, you'll get a meager 15% over the 780 Ti and 290x and it'll get replaced in 6-9 months. And yet people swarmed over the 980s for that 15%. And if this is to be believed, then it'll get leapfrogged massively 8-9 months from its launch

The difference between Titan 1 and 780 vs the Titan 2 and the 980 is the time interval. 8-9 months is not that short, or it didn't use to be that short in the GPU space.

Plus, I'm not even sure if the 980 and the Titan 2 are the right measurements. I'd think that you'd get a GM200 consumer version (1080 Ti if you will, although it'll likely be called something else) that will compete instead, and that'll likely get released around the 380X timeframe.

Indeed. Terrific post that seemingly captures the reality of the market and the complexity of the situation.

As much as some might argue that Nvidia's best interest would be killing AMD's GPU division, that is hardly the case. It's situations like these that allow them to make money and steer clear of legal issues by owning the market..

That is misinformed. The reason why oligopolies and monopolies are formed is precisely because those situations are good for the companies involved. Would Microsoft have preferred a 70% market share or a 90% marketshare during the desktop PC era in the first decade of the 2000s(before smartphones/tablets got mainstream and other OS'es with them)?

When you control a market, you can set higher prices. People will still buy GPUs, just like the vast majority of people will buy Intel CPUs for their desktop PCs because AMD can't compete there. If you think Nvidia would want a weakened (but still relatively strong) AMD over total control of the GPU market then I think you're misinformed, and grossly so.

Rumors have been floating around that the price is going to be $1350 for the GTX Titan II. If they really aren't releasing this until April then Nvidia will have to cut prices drastically within a month or two when 380X hits the shelves.

I'm not surprised over that rumor. I was surprised how a 1K card could even sell but Nvidia proved me wrong. Not making that mistake twice.

As I've said many times, GCN 2 is their make or break architecture.

Imagine if NV bring the hammer down on AMD with GM204 at $250 and $400. AMD won't be able to sell any Tonga or Hawaii SKUs without making a loss.

Then the final blow would be GM206 at $175. AMD = dead, single digit marketshare and bleeding cash, damaged beyond repair for many generations. It becomes a monopoly.

There's one risk to that strategy: AMD in its dying woes will sell off the GPU IP and division to someone more capable of management, such as Samsung or Apple...

Speculation here, but maybe Maxwell's more competetive pricing reflects Nvidia's urge to finish AMD off, even if they knew that they could charge higher prices. Nvidia's revenues were lower in end of 2013 as the Tegra fiasco was made apparent and then NV refocused on their GPUs. (Hence the higher prices to stop the bleeding).

Now NV is a better position financially and can take lower margins to advance market share.

Lisa Su seems to me to finally be the right CEO for AMD. AMD had a bunch of suits for a long time. John Byrne was head of sales yet was promoted to a technical position. This is lethal for any technology company. Their last CEO wasn't exactly the most qualified for a Silicon Valley company, to put it mildly, he mostly employed slash and burn tactics and their console design wins gave them temporary relief.

With Su, she's cleaning out the marketing/sales people who someone promoted each other to technical positions. The question is: will she be too late? And that is a very real possibility.

People have speculated that maybe Samsung will buy AMD. Well, there's plenty of talent there. Qualcomm snapped up their mobile GPU guys, who now make the Adreno(Radeon backwards, as we all know) GPUs in their Snapdragons.

Samsung buying them could cripple their dGPU business, though, and force them to become Samsung's Qualcomm Adreno equivalent. So maybe Intel would be a better buy, because it could give Intel a turnkey solution for desktop gamers, especially as Intel is now understanding that desktop PCs are not dead and indeed growing(at least the performance market, and by a healthy margin).

Intel buying AMD might be seen as a scandal, but if Zen flops, it'll be over.
 

SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
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This is the only way you would get a 500$ gm200 that so many unreasonable people are insisting.

Who is stating this? Where are the many?



every company wants to maximize profit.

Indeed!

When you control a market, you can set higher prices. People will still buy GPUs, just like the vast majority of people will buy Intel CPUs for their desktop PCs because AMD can't compete there. If you think Nvidia would want a weakened (but still relatively strong) AMD over total control of the GPU market then I think you're misinformed, and grossly so.

Indeed!

OT:

Always desired, ideally, a 50/50 share with both competitors fighting and scratching -- had this idealism in 2010 but from a gaming point-of-view, it does bother me a bit to see mid-tier GPU's as flag-ship sku's -- the bigger dies focused more-so for Quadro and Tesla. Great for nVidia to maximize revenue and margins but still a gamer at heart and kinda miss the old days, when there was stronger competition.
 

dangerman1337

Senior member
Sep 16, 2010
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That's what we wish, but economics 101 teaches us that every company wants to maximize profit. And Nvidia knows how to do that better than all of us. If they don't release Titan 2 at the conference, then that means that their calculus is simply different(and more informed) than our wishes, which are frankly based on what we want, not what's good for Nvidia's bottom line ;)

Plus, I'm not even sure if the 980 and the Titan 2 are the right measurements. I'd think that you'd get a GM200 consumer version (1080 Ti if you will, although it'll likely be called something else) that will compete instead, and that'll likely get released around the 380X timeframe
If Nvidia wants to maximize profit, I think they would want to release a 1000 USD+ Titan 2 (while still maintaining the 980 at its 550 USD price point) at that event first and then release the non-Titan GM200s once AMD brings out its R300 high end GPUs out (hopefully they won't release only a Titan once AMD's R300 series releases).

While I do agree they'll have a consumer GM200 for AMD's R300 flagship I think they'll have a Titan 2 out before then.
 

ocre

Golden Member
Dec 26, 2008
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I agree with the post above. Just like to add that this is also the best route for nvidia to take if you are AMD as well. Its a win win for both of them.
 

Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
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If nVidia thinks it can be first to bat, we'll probably get a Titan II at exorbitant prices, which forum jockeys will buy anyways despite a more rationally priced GM200 variant coming in close to the 380x/390x (close either in performance or price or both) no less than 2-4 months after.

Looking forward to seeing the performance out of a colossal 28nm Big Maxwell beast though. I've got a feeling this spring will be a particularly interesting round of high-end GPUs
 
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realibrad

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Oct 18, 2013
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That is misinformed. The reason why oligopolies and monopolies are formed is precisely because those situations are good for the companies involved.

The argument is that Intel only wants profitable market share, and they worry that if they were to push AMD completely out, that regulators in various companies would tax them and put them through legal battles which would cost more than the loss of potential revenue by AMD.

If AMD collects X amount of revenue in the market, then Intel would have to guess at how much it would cost them in legal fees and taxes to collect that revenue. If it turns out that the legal fees taxes are higher, then it would benefit Intel to leave AMD in the least profitable sectors.

Regulation is a major concern for large companies. Look at MS in Europe. They are forced to spend time/money on putting browsers into their software because they are a "monopoly". If Windows was not a monopoly, then they could save money by not having to put other companies software into their own. The reason they dont, is because they make more money than the extra cost.

That is the argument. Dont know if its right or wrong.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
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The argument is that Intel only wants profitable market share, and they worry that if they were to push AMD completely out, that regulators in various companies would tax them and put them through legal battles which would cost more than the loss of potential revenue by AMD.

If AMD collects X amount of revenue in the market, then Intel would have to guess at how much it would cost them in legal fees and taxes to collect that revenue. If it turns out that the legal fees taxes are higher, then it would benefit Intel to leave AMD in the least profitable sectors.

Regulation is a major concern for large companies. Look at MS in Europe. They are forced to spend time/money on putting browsers into their software because they are a "monopoly". If Windows was not a monopoly, then they could save money by not having to put other companies software into their own. The reason they dont, is because they make more money than the extra cost.

That is the argument. Dont know if its right or wrong.

That's where I was going with Nvidia. Sure, their first choice would be to completely remove AMD from the marketplace, so they can set the prices and slow down the pace of innovation. That said, I suspect they'd also like to avoid all the legal worries and courtroom costs that come with outright domination of the market.

Intel gets to avoid the brunt of it, to some degree, because even though they basically own the market outright, AMD is still technically a competitor putting out product in the same market segments. Are they truly competitive in all market segments? Nope. AMD is not down for the count either, they are just one innovation away from taking a performance crown and turning the tables again. It probably won't happen, but it happened when Intel was sleeping with the Pentium 4, and then AMD was first to market with 64bit instruction sets which widened that gap. AMD licenses tech from Intel, but Intel also licenses tech from AMD.
 

Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
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The cost of the legal battles is pretty irrelevant compared to the actual end-game remedy in anti-trust law, which is breaking the company up into smaller pieces so that they will compete against each other. See, AT&T in 1982 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System. No way it would actually happen though -- it's way to easy to characterize all GPU manufacturers as competitive to nVidia even if none of them but Intel battle in PC space. And Intel isn't leaving anytime soon
 

SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
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AMD is not down for the count either, they are just one innovation away from taking a performance crown and turning the tables again.

Indeed! Personally don't underestimate AMD! Personally scoff at the idea that nVidia allows AMD to survive -- if this was the case nVidia wouldn't of priced the GTX 970 so competitively.

nVidia's fine engineering has placed them in a great position but as long as AMD has a pulse -- they're a threat.