SUVs and AWD

[jlee]

Common sense goes a long way. If you think 4WD makes you invincible, you're asking to get stuck...most 4WD vehicles are mediocre in bad snow unless properly weighted or managed by computer controlled traction systems. AWD will at least give you a leg up when the roads get slick and is only slightly better than FWD.

Luckily, I live in a part of the country that gets a handful of snows per year and there's a careful balance of city road management and my job being flexible enough to keep them indoors during inclement weather.

I agree...if you have a long drive and live in a snowy part of the country with hills, buy the proper vehicle for peace of mind.

Since when? A 4wd vehicle with snow tires is just fine.

 

[mvbighead]

Common sense goes a long way. If you think 4WD makes you invincible, you're asking to get stuck...most 4WD vehicles are mediocre in bad snow unless properly weighted or managed by computer controlled traction systems. AWD will at least give you a leg up when the roads get slick and is only slightly better than FWD.

Luckily, I live in a part of the country that gets a handful of snows per year and there's a careful balance of city road management and my job being flexible enough to keep them indoors during inclement weather.

I agree...if you have a long drive and live in a snowy part of the country with hills, buy the proper vehicle for peace of mind.

This part is a miss for me:

most 4WD vehicles are mediocre in bad snow unless properly weighted or managed by computer controlled traction systems

Generally speaking, most 4wd/awd vehicles made in the past 5-10 years are going to have all the same advantages as 2WD vehicles including traction control systems.

To me, it almost seems as if you're saying that as soon as one has a AWD/4WD system, you have to take all other mitigating factors out the window and assume is a 2wd vehicle with traction control vs a 4wd/awd vehicle with no traction control.

That said, there is much difference in capability of awd systems. My 2005 Equinox was inferior. My 2000 Silverado got up out of my driveway in some substantial drifts. I don't think that 2000 has Traction Control, so it is just pure 4wd doing the work (and some very generic highway tires at that).

Just saying, if you take any 2wd vehicle and include all characteristics, and THEN add AWD/4WD, you'll considerable improvement in the ability to get your vehicle to move forward when on slick surfaces. Stopping is no different, but getting up hills and the like, you'll see serious improvement.

 

[slag]

Our explorer has different 4wd modes. normal, mud, snow, and sand. The Ford terrain management system integrates powertrain and braking controls to provide appropriate traction for any driving conditions the roads and climate present. Terrain management is activated by a console-mounted, switchable knob, enabling 4WD control through an intuitive choice of settings for various conditions including normal, mud, sand, and snow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWcIPZ-9ioE

 

[michal1980]

I will never own another winter car without AWD or 4WD ever, ever, ever again. The difference is too noticeable when it comes to sheer ice or 4"-6" snow ruts. Ive been in numerous situations where a FWD with snowtires still wouldnt cut it, but an AWD with all-weathers managed.
But this is Canuckistan. shits different here.

phhf. Your awd with all seasons helps you get going.

But it doesnt help you stop, or steer.

FWD with snow tires helps you get going, helps you stop, and helps you steer.

 

[Midwayman]

FWIW the tire racks tests showed a RWD on Snows equal to a AWD on all seasons in their acceleration testing. If you think AWD on all seasons is an advantage over 2wd and snow tires, you're mistaken. The car with snows beat the all seasons by a large margin on all other handling tests.

Thing for me is I don't want all the disadvantages of AWD for the week or so of combined snow days I have to drive through during a year. There are places where both AWD and snows are pretty much required, but Chicago isn't one ofthem.

 

[fleshconsumed]

FWIW the tire racks tests showed a RWD on Snows equal to a AWD on all seasons in their acceleration testing. If you think AWD on all seasons is an advantage over 2wd and snow tires, you're mistaken. The car with snows beat the all seasons by a large margin on all other handling tests.

Thing for me is I don't want all the disadvantages of AWD for the week or so of combined snow days I have to drive through during a year. There are places where both AWD and snows are pretty much required, but Chicago isn't one ofthem.

But you'd want the disadvantage of having to put snow tires on your car and having them on for the entire season for just a "week or so of combined snow days"? That makes no sense. Even if FWD with snow tires is better than AWD with AllSeasons, by your own words, the AWD with AllSeasons plus careful driving is almost as good. Why would I want to deal with having to buy a second set of tires and then swap them twice a year when I can just get away with AWD and All Seasons?

 

[Viper GTS]

But you'd want the disadvantage of having to put snow tires on your car and having them on for the entire season for just a "week or so of combined snow days"? That makes no sense. Even if FWD with snow tires is better than AWD with AllSeasons, by your own words, the AWD with AllSeasons plus careful driving is almost as good. Why would I want to deal with having to buy a second set of tires and then swap them twice a year when I can just get away with AWD and All Seasons?

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=109

The relevant section:

The braking comparison measured the tires' ability to provide traction during an ABS-assisted panic stop in a straight line. We drove the two Cayennes side-by-side at a speed of 30 mph, gave both drivers a braking signal at the prescribed mark and compared the distances it took them to come to a complete stop. The winter tire-equipped Cayenne stopped in an average distance of about 61 feet, while the all-season tire-equipped Cayenne took 102 feet (an additional 41 feet or about two and one-half car lengths). A 41-foot difference in stopping distance during a panic stop at 30 mph on a snow-packed road is more than enough to determine whether it's a near miss or an accident!

Additionally, while the all-wheel drive Cayenne offered noticeably faster acceleration than the rear-wheel drive sedan, the winter tire-equipped BMW's 59-foot stopping distance and all-season tire-equipped 89-foot stopping distance showed that all-wheel drive didn't really offer a measurable advantage when it came to stopping.

Your car and the life of your family. Your call.

Viper GTS

 

[mvbighead]

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=109

The relevant section:



Your car and the life of your family. Your call.

Viper GTS

To me, many of those factors can be mitigated by simply maintaining adequate distance while driving down the road. For me, I stay well beyond 100ft away from the driver in front of me, as it does me absolutely no good to get to my destination 3 seconds faster. If I have no intentions of passing a person, I give my self plenty of room to not only react, but brake. This morning there was a fair amount of snow on the ground, and in each of the situations that required stopping (plows, etc), I had more than enough time to react in every situation.

Don't get me wrong, good snow tires are still very important, but there are numerous conditions I have been in where the only thing that would get me through is a real 4WD/AWD system. If you have two tires being dragged or pushed by the other two, you're susceptible to getting stuck when those two tires lose traction. When all 4 tires are capable of doing work, your chances of getting stuck diminish greatly. My driving conditions are certainly not the norm though.

 

[Midwayman]

But you'd want the disadvantage of having to put snow tires on your car and having them on for the entire season for just a "week or so of combined snow days"? That makes no sense. Even if FWD with snow tires is better than AWD with AllSeasons, by your own words, the AWD with AllSeasons plus careful driving is almost as good. Why would I want to deal with having to buy a second set of tires and then swap them twice a year when I can just get away with AWD and All Seasons?

Snow tires also beat all seasons in temperatures below about 50F. So its not just a handful of days the tires are useful. AWD + All seasons is just about as good *IN ACCELERATION* probably the least useful category to be good in if you're concerned with safety. It is much worse in turning and braking on snow.

I'd say the reason you'd want to deal with having a second set of tires is you like the idea of stopping several car lengths faster from 30mph and avoiding accidents. Up to you if its worth it. If you don't get much snow the difference between all seasons and winter tires is much smaller.

 

[Midwayman]

To me, many of those factors can be mitigated by simply maintaining adequate distance while driving down the road. For me, I stay well beyond 100ft away from the driver in front of me, as it does me absolutely no good to get to my destination 3 seconds faster. If I have no intentions of passing a person, I give my self plenty of room to not only react, but brake. This morning there was a fair amount of snow on the ground, and in each of the situations that required stopping (plows, etc), I had more than enough time to react in every situation.

You can drive carefully with snows on too. However there are situations you can't plan for. My accident last winter for example. Clear roads, traveling normal speeds come around a corner without line of sight and a there's a huge patch of snow that a plow apparently pushed onto the road from the side of the road. Snow might have got me around that corner. It could just as easily be someone pulling out right in front of you from a parking lot, etc. Too many things you can't predict.

 

[Spicedaddy]

As others have said, everything else being equal I'd rather have FWD with winter tires than AWD with All Seasons.

Not going up a hill because FWD has less traction sucks, but it's not dangerous. Slipping down that hill because your all seasons have crappy tread and compound = ditch.

 

[Pocatello]

Subaru AWD + Snow tires = win.

 

[Jumpem]

Why are people comparing FWD + snow tires to AWD + all season tires? AWD vehicles can be equipped with snow tires and come out far ahead.

As the poster above noted, Subaru + snow tires is the answer.

 

[LTC8K6]

I can fully disable the TCS and ESP on my Jeep if they seem to be hindering forward progress. :biggrin:

When I go into 4 low, the throttle response is remapped to be a lot slower. That helps a lot with keeping traction.

 

[Spicedaddy]

Why are people comparing FWD + snow tires to AWD + all season tires? AWD vehicles can be equipped with snow tires and come out far ahead.

As the poster above noted, Subaru + snow tires is the answer.

Just responding to people saying you don't need snow tires on AWD cars...

Quattro + Nokians =

 

[Railgun]

I think you're better off with snow tires and FWD than all season tires and AWD.
.

Apples and oranges.

If you live in a place that will have snow, get winter tires. Period. If not, get either all seasons or summers. Regardless of the drive, get the appropriate tire. Period.

 

[mvbighead]

There is another point to be made, however... not all allseason tires are created equal. Nor are all winter tires. I'd wager a guess that a top tier all season tire might perform comparably to a lesser tier winter tire, it may even perform better.

There is no argument against snows for driving in snow other than the hassle of maintaining two sets of tires. And to me, there are maybe 5-10 days a year that would really benefit from that extra traction.

To me, the days that really require snows are the days that you should keep an exceedingly large distance from other drivers anyway... especially when likely greater than 80% of them are all using all seasons.

 

[jlee]

There is another point to be made, however... not all allseason tires are created equal. Nor are all winter tires. I'd wager a guess that a top tier all season tire might perform comparably to a lesser tier winter tire, it may even perform better.

There is no argument against snows for driving in snow other than the hassle of maintaining two sets of tires. And to me, there are maybe 5-10 days a year that would really benefit from that extra traction.

To me, the days that really require snows are the days that you should keep an exceedingly large distance from other drivers anyway... especially when likely greater than 80% of them are all using all seasons.

I have not seen a single test to support that guess, but if you have any please link

Snow tires outperform all season tires on dry pavement in cold weather. It's not just a benefit in snow.

 

[rommelrommel]

Well, I could see a very good all weather with mountain/snowflake rating out performing a uber cheap Chinese snow tire, in cold weather possibly. That's just a guess tho.

 

[desy]

an all weather is not an all season

 

[rommelrommel]

I know that, those are just the only circumstances under which I could reasonably see a snow tire being less effective in cold weather than another tire.

 

[mvbighead]

I have not seen a single test to support that guess, but if you have any please link

Snow tires outperform all season tires on dry pavement in cold weather. It's not just a benefit in snow.

My only point is that there are different grades of tires. To assume that an all season tire is just like any other all season tire, or the same for snow, would simply not be wise.

While it is not 'proof' of anything, the survey ratings of tires on tirerack do show some all seasons to be terrible in snow, while others receive marks around 7.5 or better. In comparing some of those to snow tires, the different is about 1 point in favor of snows. Like I said, not picture perfect proof, nor is it scientific, but group of people providing their input on how they feel the tires perform would indicate that certain all seasons are only marginally worse than a random set of snows.

 

[desy]

K
Family member made that choice, all weather on the Subaru cause of the hassle of changing over

 

[JCH13]

This discussion makes me sad every year because so many people love to flaunt their ignorance, disguised as a strong opinion, on this subject.

ViperGTS cited a REALLY good article from TireRack, so I will re-cite it and add two more.

AWD SUVs, winter vs all-season
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=109

Sedan 2WD, winter vs all-season
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=103

Sedan, winter vs all-season vs summer
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=116

So, for the sake of argument, let's assume that all of the vehicles used in these studies are traction-limited. This is a good assumption given that even a geo-metro could spin it's tires in snow if you tried hard enough.

First, let's compare the braking data from 30mph from the first two articles:

2WD snow = 59ft
2WD all-season = 89ft
AWD snow = 61ft
AWD all-season = 102ft

My conclusion from this is that in both cases they are traction-limited and that snow tires have much more grip in braking and the weight of the vehicle has a very small effect compared to tire selection.

Moving on to acceleration....

0-200ft acceleration times:

2WD snow = 8s
2WD all-season = 11s
AWD snow = 6+s
AWD all-season = 8s = 2WD snow

My conclusion here is that in snow a 2WD sedan with snow tires has the same acceleration performance as an AWD SUV with all-season tires. AWD+winters is the best, and 2wd+all-seasons is the worst.

Now, looking at turning (in the 3rd article) the picture says it all:

So, what have we concluded:

AWD+snows - best in braking, turning, and acceleartion
2WD+snows - best in braking, turning, and 2nd best acceleration
AWD+all-seasons - worst in braking, turning, and 2nd best acceleration
2WD+all seasons - worst in braking, turning, and acceleration.

This matches with all of my own personal experience that includes AWD+snows, AWD+all-seasons, RWD+snows, RWD+all seasons, and FWD+snows. My driving locales include NH/VT, Colorado, and even the frozen wasteland that is Canada.

TL;DR - no, your AWD+all seasons aren't better than 2WD+winters.

I made the move to AWD (Honda) and really love it. The Honda AWD system operates that it is in FWD all the time unless it needs AWD such as in rain, snow, mud or ice. In prior employment; during a heavy snow or ice storm, it would not matter if I stayed home or not. But because of my job, it is necessary that I do my very best to make it to work. Therefore, an AWD vehicle is mandatory.

Yes, you are better off with snow tires and FWD than FWD and All Season tires, but if you want to go the snow tire route, you can also put 4 snow times on an AWD vehicle. For that matter, I would put my AWD with All Season tires against any FWD with snow tires. You just can’t beat 4 wheels pushing and pulling against just two. Keep in mind the cost for changing over to snow tires every year. Or if you want to give them dedicated wheel, you will need to add TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitors) in the wheel at about $75 each wheel.

I would not consider towing problems an issue if you park in legal spaces. Tow truck drivers are liable if they damage your vehicle due to incorrect towing procedure.

I have found that AWD with All Season Tires to be able to handle just about any snow or ice condition that the mid-west can throw at. To avoid driving the wife to work on snow days, I bought her a new Toyota Rav4 AWD. Works on the same principle as the Honda AWD. As hard as I tried to get either of these vehicles stuck in parking lot snow up to 8 inches, I just could not. I doubt I could say that with FWD.

Mad lulz at trying to get stuck in a parking lot. Seriously? That's the bar by which you judge your traction performance? That is laughably silly. Example: at the apartment where I used to live we had to move our cars when the plow guy came around. One night, when there was about 16in of fresh snow, I had to move my FWD MS3. I backed it out of the parking lot, but then had a hard time driving up the road to park. Turns out that I had left my e-brake on while I was backing through 16in of snow. Trying to get stuck in a parking lot is like trying to drown yourself in a bowl of soup.

There's still additional cost to all of that. You puncture one tire? You're swapping out two tires to be safe on awd. I'll concede that you're 100% right if it actually snows all the time where you live. My experience with seasons is there's less than a combined week of snow driving per year. I don't count it as snow driving if the roads have been plowed.

You're right in that in theory tow truck drivers are liable. Don't expect them to hand you cash to fix your vehicle though. That's likely a civil suit.

I think you can move with FWD and 8" of snow. I was snowed in at work a few times last year and assuming it was flat, I got out. Hell, I used to go to empty lots and drift when there was only 3-5" on the ground.

edit: This is not part of any argument for or against AWD, but FWD and snow drifting is fun. Not sure you'd get the same result with AWD. Not sure on this one though.

You'd be swapping 4 tires, having different tire diameters on the front and back damages the center differential.

Or... you know... just get one tire and have it shaved to the right diameter.

 

[mvbighead]

This discussion makes me sad every year because so many people love to flaunt their ignorance, disguised as a strong opinion, on this subject.

ViperGTS cited a REALLY good article from TireRack, so I will re-cite it and add two more.

AWD SUVs, winter vs all-season
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=109

Sedan 2WD, winter vs all-season
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=103

Sedan, winter vs all-season vs summer
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=116

So, for the sake of argument, let's assume that all of the vehicles used in these studies are traction-limited. This is a good assumption given that even a geo-metro could spin it's tires in snow if you tried hard enough.

First, let's compare the braking data from 30mph from the first two articles:

2WD snow = 59ft
2WD all-season = 89ft
AWD snow = 61ft
AWD all-season = 102ft

My conclusion from this is that in both cases they are traction-limited and that snow tires have much more grip in braking and the weight of the vehicle has a very small effect compared to tire selection.

Moving on to acceleration....

0-200ft acceleration times:

2WD snow = 8s
2WD all-season = 11s
AWD snow = 6+s
AWD all-season = 8s = 2WD snow

My conclusion here is that in snow a 2WD sedan with snow tires has the same acceleration performance as an AWD SUV with all-season tires. AWD+winters is the best, and 2wd+all-seasons is the worst.

Now, looking at turning (in the 3rd article) the picture says it all:

So, what have we concluded:

AWD+snows - best in braking, turning, and acceleartion
2WD+snows - best in braking, turning, and 2nd best acceleration
AWD+all-seasons - worst in braking, turning, and 2nd best acceleration
2WD+all seasons - worst in braking, turning, and acceleration.

This matches with all of my own personal experience that includes AWD+snows, AWD+all-seasons, RWD+snows, RWD+all seasons, and FWD+snows. My driving locales include NH/VT, Colorado, and even the frozen wasteland that is Canada.

TL;DR - no, your AWD+all seasons aren't better than 2WD+winters.



Mad lulz at trying to get stuck in a parking lot. Seriously? That's the bar by which you judge your traction performance? That is laughably silly. Example: at the apartment where I used to live we had to move our cars when the plow guy came around. One night, when there was about 16in of fresh snow, I had to move my FWD MS3. I backed it out of the parking lot, but then had a hard time driving up the road to park. Turns out that I had left my e-brake on while I was backing through 16in of snow. Trying to get stuck in a parking lot is like trying to drown yourself in a bowl of soup.



You'd be swapping 4 tires, having different tire diameters on the front and back damages the center differential.

Or... you know... just get one tire and have it shaved to the right diameter.

Only problem with videos as proof provided by tirerack would also be a bit... biased. It's not as if Tirerack would stand to gain anything by suggesting people by a second set of rims and a second set of tires. Wait, they would stand to gain a lot as people will be buying more of their products.

I want to see a test with 4 different sets of tires. The highest and lowest rated all season and the highest and lowest rated snow tire. Do legitimate turn test and I would guess that the higher rated all season may be around the same ability as the lowest rated snow, or just marginally worse.

And I don't really have a super strong opinion on the matter, but I am able to sit back and read that different all seasons perform differently for different performance aspects, so it certainly is within reason that the best set of all seasons could be more than adequate for 99.9% of driving conditions. If every all season tire performed the same as the other, there would be no need for spending extra on this or that tire.