SUVs and AWD

[Lean L]

I recently had a chat with a friend that moved from the New England area. I live in Philly.

Her thought was that practical cars would be SUVs with high clearance and AWD. My thought was pretty much the opposite. I like a RWD car but realistically I think for 98% of everyday driving FWD makes the most sense.

Let's talk snow first since that seems to be the big argument for AWD. I think you're better off with snow tires and FWD than all season tires and AWD. The main issue with snow is not getting stuck most of the time, but handling and ability to stop. Through last year's horrible winter, I was only stuck once and that was because I was parked at the bottom of a slope. I may have been able to pull free with AWD but then I'd be sliding on all fours and handling once again comes into play.

For the rest of the time when it is not snowing, you're using more gas while getting less power to the wheels for the same engine output. All for driving on paved roads... Not to mention that your maintenance costs are higher since you now have to worry about matching 4 tires and an additional differential.

One last thing I'll toss in there. This one will not apply to most people but towing is a consideration. I was parked on a road where they were doing construction maybe two months back. The construction signs had a span of like 1/2 a year so people returned to parking on that street. When I woke up, the construction crew already moved the the cars off the street to an adjacent street. I was not happy to be towed of course, but I can at least rest assured that no damage was done to my drive train.

Towing trucks are common whereas not many places in the city will tow you with a flatbed. I've seen a Merc GLK get towed by the front before in the city. The tires were screaming bloody murder, not a single fuck was given by the driver. It really annoyed me to see that but that's the level of care that these guys put into towing your car. While it's possible that they would tow your FWD from the back, the path of least resistance dictates that they tow from the front.

Thoughts? I can see the need for awd pickups in mid america or raised jeeps for rock climbing... I think the snow argument for most of the US is invalid though.

 

[jlee]

I absolutely agree that you're better off with snow tires and FWD than all season tires and AWD. I ran snow tires and AWD in northern New Hampshire. I also didn't have the luxury of not going into work when we had that kind of weather where the radio tells you to stay home and avoid travel.

Most trucks are 4wd, i.e. they are 2wd unless the transfer case is in 4wd mode. A lot of SUV's are in fact AWD now, but trucks generally aren't.

There's two additional differentials for AWD, btw.

 

[Lean L]

I absolutely agree that you're better off with snow tires and FWD than all season tires and AWD. I ran snow tires and AWD in northern New Hampshire. I also didn't have the luxury of not going into work when we had that kind of weather where the radio tells you to stay home and avoid travel.

Most trucks are 4wd, i.e. they are 2wd unless the transfer case is in 4wd mode. A lot of SUV's are in fact AWD now, but trucks generally aren't.

There's two additional differentials for AWD, btw.

Yep I can see the need for trucks and don't really knock on those unless they are driven to and from work in suburbia or something. I'm thinking mostly the luxury SUVs, quatro Audis, 4matic Mercs, unsporty GMs. I can't knock Subarus too much since they seem to be cheap enough while being known for reliability.

I think they showed just how capable the X6 was on top gear some time back.

 

[Raizinman]

I made the move to AWD (Honda) and really love it. The Honda AWD system operates that it is in FWD all the time unless it needs AWD such as in rain, snow, mud or ice. In prior employment; during a heavy snow or ice storm, it would not matter if I stayed home or not. But because of my job, it is necessary that I do my very best to make it to work. Therefore, an AWD vehicle is mandatory.

Yes, you are better off with snow tires and FWD than FWD and All Season tires, but if you want to go the snow tire route, you can also put 4 snow times on an AWD vehicle. For that matter, I would put my AWD with All Season tires against any FWD with snow tires. You just can’t beat 4 wheels pushing and pulling against just two. Keep in mind the cost for changing over to snow tires every year. Or if you want to give them dedicated wheel, you will need to add TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitors) in the wheel at about $75 each wheel.

I would not consider towing problems an issue if you park in legal spaces. Tow truck drivers are liable if they damage your vehicle due to incorrect towing procedure.

I have found that AWD with All Season Tires to be able to handle just about any snow or ice condition that the mid-west can throw at. To avoid driving the wife to work on snow days, I bought her a new Toyota Rav4 AWD. Works on the same principle as the Honda AWD. As hard as I tried to get either of these vehicles stuck in parking lot snow up to 8 inches, I just could not. I doubt I could say that with FWD.

 

[Lean L]

There's still additional cost to all of that. You puncture one tire? You're swapping out two tires to be safe on awd. I'll concede that you're 100% right if it actually snows all the time where you live. My experience with seasons is there's less than a combined week of snow driving per year. I don't count it as snow driving if the roads have been plowed.

You're right in that in theory tow truck drivers are liable. Don't expect them to hand you cash to fix your vehicle though. That's likely a civil suit.

I think you can move with FWD and 8" of snow. I was snowed in at work a few times last year and assuming it was flat, I got out. Hell, I used to go to empty lots and drift when there was only 3-5" on the ground.

edit: This is not part of any argument for or against AWD, but FWD and snow drifting is fun. Not sure you'd get the same result with AWD. Not sure on this one though.

 

[Yuriman]

Full-time AWD robs gas mileage and costs more to service. Define "practical".

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

I will never own another winter car without AWD or 4WD ever, ever, ever again. The difference is too noticeable when it comes to sheer ice or 4"-6" snow ruts. Ive been in numerous situations where a FWD with snowtires still wouldnt cut it, but an AWD with all-weathers managed.
But this is Canuckistan. shits different here.

 

[xBiffx]

How many vehicles actually run full time AWD? I thought most operated at lower speeds in AWD to get you going but then after like 20 MPH or so they automatically changed to FWD. I am sure there are some that have a dedicated switch but as for the automatic ones, I thought this was the way a majority functioned.

 

[Spicedaddy]

If you get snow (northern US and Canada), then winter tires are a must IMO, and for any kind of car. It's mandatory where I live from December to March.

AWD>FWD>RWD for snow and ice.Most people are fine with FWD, especially if you don't have to go up hills. But AWD is better and it's the kind of thing that's hard to give up once you have it.

 

[LTC8K6]

Lots of vehicles are full time 4 wheel / all wheel drive. There are many different versions and many different types of operation. Lots are also basically 2 wheel drive until they detect slippage.

 

[LTC8K6]

Here's how the system in my 2008GC works:

Quadra-Trac II Operating
Instructions/Precautions — If Equipped
The Quadra-Trac II transfer case is fully automatic in the
normal driving 4 HI mode. The Quadra-Trac II transfer
case provides three mode positions — four wheel drive
high range, neutral, and four wheel drive low range.
This transfer case is fully automatic in the 4 HI mode.
This transfer case divides engine torque almost evenly
with 48 percent of engine torque to the front axle and 52
percent of engine torque to the rear axle. When speed
differences are increased between the front and rear drive
shafts, the transfer case can transmit up to 100 percent of
available engine torque to the front or rear drive shafts.
When additional traction is required, the 4 LOW position
can be used to lock the front and rear driveshafts together
and force the front and rear wheels to rotate at the same
speed. The 4 LOW position is intended for loose, slippery
road surfaces only. Driving in the 4 LOW position on dry
hard surfaced roads may cause increased tire wear and
damage to driveline components.
When operating your vehicle in 4 LOW, the engine speed
is approximately three times that of the 4 HI position at a
given road speed. Take care not to overspeed the engine
and do not exceed 25 mph (40 km/h).

So, 99% of the time, all 4 of my wheels are being driven.

 

[Jumpem]

Subaru AWD + snow tires. The ground clearance of an SUV, near car like fuel economy, a capable AWD system, and very good safety ratings.

 

[Raizinman]

How many vehicles actually run full time AWD? I thought most operated at lower speeds in AWD to get you going but then after like 20 MPH or so they automatically changed to FWD. I am sure there are some that have a dedicated switch but as for the automatic ones, I thought this was the way a majority functioned.

Most Honda and Toyota AWD operate in the following manner. They are in FWD all the time. When slippage is detected due to snow, ices, mud, sand, or whatever, then the AWD kicks in instantaneous. This happens at ANY speed. There are no controls to put the vehicle in full time AWD or to leave it in full time FWD. It is all automatic and happens at the blink of an eye.

Basically, when you need AWD it is there. When you don't, it is in FWD. It is a great system.

 

[mvbighead]

I will never own another winter car without AWD or 4WD ever, ever, ever again. The difference is too noticeable when it comes to sheer ice or 4"-6" snow ruts. Ive been in numerous situations where a FWD with snowtires still wouldnt cut it, but an AWD with all-weathers managed.
But this is Canuckistan. shits different here.

This. I know people love to talk snow tires and FWD cars, but I much prefer an AWD system and a good set of all seasons. I tend to buy new tires around winter if I can, but by and large my biggest problem is making it up slick hills. No amount of care is going to get you up a hill when two of your wheels are dragging.

And what I mean by care, is that if you exercise proper caution, you can avoid panicked stops or losing control, but you can't make your tires grip when they aren't.

Suffice it to say, I had an 2005 Equinox, have a 2000 1500 Silverado, and 2008 Subaru Tribeca. All have some variation of an AWD system. With a large mound of snow in my driveway, the Subaru and the Silverado are able to drive over/through it with relative ease. That Equinox's version of an AWD system basically gave a nudge/boost with the rear wheels when slippage was detected. I got stuck with that car.

I've had numerous a couple of Jeeps over the years, and very seldom did either one of those get stuck driving through some very nasty mounds of snow, and when they did get stuck, I had earned it.

All in all, tires make a great difference in all around control. But a good AWD/4WD system can be the difference between my wife and 2 year old son getting home versus being stuck at the bottom of the hill that leads up to our house.

 

[skyking]

How many vehicles actually run full time AWD? I thought most operated at lower speeds in AWD to get you going but then after like 20 MPH or so they automatically changed to FWD. I am sure there are some that have a dedicated switch but as for the automatic ones, I thought this was the way a majority functioned.

That's how our 2005 Honda Pilot works. It is all 4 from a start, and the rear drive is totally phased out by 30 MPH. It is quite annoying when the conditions would allow faster speeds up a hill, but the lack of rear drive makes that impossible. A couple of times we experienced that on mountain passes. I could get to 30, but that was it.

 

[CurseTheSky]

For the average person, AWD is plenty (probably overkill, actually). Getting stuck isn't the real issue - it's sliding off the road or hitting another car due to loss of traction. Your tires and driving habits are what really matters.

AWD / 4WD only really come into play in getting going from a stop or making it through deep snow. If you have a driveway or parking lot that you need to make it through even if it hasn't been plowed, AWD will help. If you have a hill on your commute where you often get stuck at the bottom (either turning onto a side road or getting stopped at a light) and sometimes have trouble making it up, AWD will help. If you're just driving along in crappy conditions, AWD doesn't really make a difference.

 

[xBiffx]

That's how our 2005 Honda Pilot works. It is all 4 from a start, and the rear drive is totally phased out by 30 MPH. It is quite annoying when the conditions would allow faster speeds up a hill, but the lack of rear drive makes that impossible. A couple of times we experienced that on mountain passes. I could get to 30, but that was it.

Yeah, it was just like that in my Nissan Murano.

I don't think many people realize that AWD, unless its stated as full time AWD like LTC8K6 showed, it isn't doing them shit when they are going down the highway.

 

[desy]

Ah the seasonal awd debate
I live in Canada and where we allow studded winter tires. since I travel mostly highway, no hills and ground clearance is not an issue 'more ice than deep snow' I choose fwd with dedicated studded tires.
I choose FWD due to initial purchase cost, repair costs, fuel costs and some drivability. AWD will accelerate and turn quicker but FWD being the lighter vehicle typically will stop faster.
I don't consider being towed in my choice and I have owned two 4X4 vehicles so I have experience with all three types.
Now if I had an AWD type of vehicle I'd lean towards buying an all weather tire like Optimo 4S or a Nokian WRG and then I'd have tires that lean towards winter drivability over summer and not need to be swapped seasonally.

 

[rommelrommel]

Full time AWD (no 10% power to the rears BS) and proper tires is obviously ideal. I have snowflake rated all-weathers on my GX470 and the only thing that can foil me is glare ice. Pure snow/ice tires would probably do better, but I can drive these year round.

 

[SparkyJJO]

I'll take my full truck frame lifted SUV with selectable 4WD any day, if for no other reason than it is fun to drive through stuff that otherwise may be an issue for the lame car-based SUV wannabes

Granted most people probably don't really need to do that...

 

[Capt Caveman]

Living in New England, I'll always have some kind of SUV/CUV with AWD. The AWD plus clearance makes life so much easier.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Around here, we do have mountains....but living in the south, people buy into the image of driving a beefed up SUV or truck with 4WD.....despite the $4-6k increase in cost of the vehicle....not to mention maintenance and lost of MPG. (increased weight)

I always figure $4,000 will pay for a lot of tows if I need them.

FWD can do a lot, but in many cases, it all depends on tire tread and conditions. We've had snows here where my FWD Buick stopped on a slight incline (in a parking lot) and I had to get out and push it just to get traction. Once moving, it was fine...but thick snow and ice sometimes require all 4 tires to move a vehicle.

 

[phreaqe]

The problem is i always hear is that people would rather have FWD with snow tires then AWD with all season. Except the proponents of FWD always seem to act like thats the only option and forget that we can get the same snow tires on the AWD cars as well which i do so therefore i have the best of both worlds and a FWD car cant touch that setup.

 

[mvbighead]

Around here, we do have mountains....but living in the south, people buy into the image of driving a beefed up SUV or truck with 4WD.....despite the $4-6k increase in cost of the vehicle....not to mention maintenance and lost of MPG. (increased weight)

I always figure $4,000 will pay for a lot of tows if I need them.

FWD can do a lot, but in many cases, it all depends on tire tread and conditions. We've had snows here where my FWD Buick stopped on a slight incline (in a parking lot) and I had to get out and push it just to get traction. Once moving, it was fine...but thick snow and ice sometimes require all 4 tires to move a vehicle.

And if that $4000 difference means your wife and 2 year old are stranded for an hour or so waiting for the tow truck (or you) to get to them?

Personally, folks that live in town and seldom drive wintery hilly terrain may never need a good AWD vehicle, but as I don't live in that type of area, and my wife and I commute, I just figure it best that we both can get home regardless of the day. And if that means pushing through a 2 foot snow drift in my drive way, so be it.

 

[Scarpozzi]

And if that $4000 difference means your wife and 2 year old are stranded for an hour or so waiting for the tow truck (or you) to get to them?

Personally, folks that live in town and seldom drive wintery hilly terrain may never need a good AWD vehicle, but as I don't live in that type of area, and my wife and I commute, I just figure it best that we both can get home regardless of the day. And if that means pushing through a 2 foot snow drift in my drive way, so be it.

Common sense goes a long way. If you think 4WD makes you invincible, you're asking to get stuck...most 4WD vehicles are mediocre in bad snow unless properly weighted or managed by computer controlled traction systems. AWD will at least give you a leg up when the roads get slick and is only slightly better than FWD.

Luckily, I live in a part of the country that gets a handful of snows per year and there's a careful balance of city road management and my job being flexible enough to keep them indoors during inclement weather.

I agree...if you have a long drive and live in a snowy part of the country with hills, buy the proper vehicle for peace of mind.