- Jul 18, 2004
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ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
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Re-read what I said.
It was the left that was all over Cheney and Bush for not serving. I am just asking if they are going to give Biden equal treatment, or if they will sort of just ignore this fact, or (as they are in this thread) come up with all kinds of excuses.
UberNeuman
Lifer
- Nov 4, 1999
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Sir, you need to make a case other than simply reposting something you read on the internet - how are Biden and Chenny tied together in this?
XMan
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
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Who
f'n
cares?!?!?
I mean, seriously. Guys, we Republicans have got to be above this kind of stupid garbage or we're no better than Harvey, jpeyton, and Dave. Debate the man on the issues and bring people to your side with the force of your ideas, not stupid crap like this.
Svnla
Lifer
- Nov 10, 2003
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Commies from the North are innocent and want to be free of occupation??? What good book of history you been reading? Must be some good books from Hanoi Jane.
Why don't you ask the true innocent Southern Vietnameses want to be free and live free from Communist rule how bad those commies treated them. How about millions of Catholics from the North moved South before the country was divided in half to get away from Communist. How the North invaded the South and took over in 1975. How all those Southern Vietnameses lost their families/homes/properties/their kids couldn't go to college or get a good job just because they were not in the Communist party. Shall I go on?
Ever hear of "re-educated" camps in Vietnam? Ever hear of the Killing Fields in Cambodia? Ever hear of boat people? I was one of those boat people and spent time in the refugee camps and I can speak from first hand experience, it was NOT fun <just survived>.
My good god. I don't post in PnN much but some of you are so blind in partision/bickering just for the sake of politics..it is so sad.
DangerAardvark
Diamond Member
- Oct 22, 2004
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So why are we against student deferments again? Last I checked, student status was a legitimate reason for a deferment.
- Jul 18, 2004
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You're being sarcastic right? You realize that I'm accusing Biden of lying about his asthma and his draft board (it would not have been the U.S. Army) believing him?
If you recalled my comments from that election, and I don't expect you to, they're that Kerry hugely redeemed himself by learning from his mistakes and having the courage and leadership to become a national figure in the anti-war movement, leading other such veterans who realized the war was wrong to oppose it, and the fact of how good people could be fooled into not realizing the war was wrong, it was a different culture, and especially younger people can hardly be expected to be foreign policy experts.
In other words, it differentiates between the behavior of Kerry indeed going and killing innocent Vietnamese, with his *intent* that he did not realize that, he thought he was fighting to defend America in a good cause - which is why anti-war people are such supporters of the need for public education to help prevent people from making such mistakes.
Bush, on the other hand, showed IMO a large lack of character in his churlish support for the war while being determined not to serve in it.
Read this story about a Bush Harvard professor on Bush for a refresher.
Well, not a baby murderer (he wasn't dropping things from planes), but a murderer of innocent Vietnamese, yes.
It wasn't easy for people to figure out the morality of that war. One of the greatest leaders of the era, Bobby Kennedy, took years to reverse his position. Robert McNamara, considered the most able of Kennedy's cabinet, did as well, initially helping draw LBJ into the war, later reversing course that led to his resignation, and years later admitting that the Unisted States had been terribly negligent in going to war on assumptions and not realizing that the Vietnamese people's agenda was wanting their own freedom.
But some remarkable Americans recognized the immorality of the war earliy on, and if Biden was one, good for him.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
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Student deferments were given as a matter of course and I suspect ole non Prof John is counting each and every year of Biden's undergraduate and law school career as a separate deferment. As I recall, Cheney;s five deferments were far more creative including a hasty marriage. But when school ran out, Biden stepped up to the plate, took the physical, and its not his fault the doctors declared him 1-Y. That decision is made by military doctors, not inductees. For that matter someone I knew got 4F for flat feet, it really must make him a draft dodger also.
And Biden may have been fooled into voting for the Iraq war, but it was Cheney and a similar cabal of people who never served were the ones lying through their teeth selling the Iraq war. And before McCain opposed torture, Biden was making a stink about it.
Once again, PJ makes a very weak post.
And Biden may have been fooled into voting for the Iraq war, but it was Cheney and a similar cabal of people who never served were the ones lying through their teeth selling the Iraq war. And before McCain opposed torture, Biden was making a stink about it.
Once again, PJ makes a very weak post.
- Jul 18, 2004
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I read books from historians and people like the war's architect, Robert McNamara, who has some knowledge on the issue. What books do you read about Vietnam's hitory?
No, you should stop typing and start reading and get informed. The whole reason there was a 'south' or a 'north' was the US-supported split of the nation for its own desire to try to stop the efforts of ending colonization. The US - champion of democracy it was - promised elections and then blocked them when it was clear its puppet would lose. Vietname begged the US to support its independance from re-colonization by France after the WWII Japanese occupation ended. The US instead strongly supportd France.
Of *course* there were horrific acts once the war was on. Saying that's simply the 'northern communists being evil' makes as little sense as saying the US Union or Confederacy were horrible for the horrific acts perpetrated in that war. Both the Union and the Confederacy would have happily never committed those horrors had a political solution prevented war; when there was war, horror followed. Same for the Vietnamese.
You were a boat person. If you were a young person at the time who only experienced the war, of course you would have had a horrible experience with the side you were at war with. Are you familiar enough with Vietnamese history before your time to understand how things could have been had their freedom from colonization had come after WWII, instead of after wars with France and the US and the splitting of their country before it was unified?
I'm sure you have all kinds of valid insights into Vietnam - but I also think of the Cuban community in Florida who is so passionately anti-Castro, who however valid their cause, I never hear condemn the predecessor to Castro, Batista, for his extreme wrongs that made the nation to ready to embrace Castro's revolution. I have to ask if you have the larger view as well.
UberNeuman
Lifer
- Nov 4, 1999
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- Jul 18, 2004
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Craig, that story by Tsurumi is ridiculous, uncorroborated hearsay. I don't know what's worse, the lunatic professor making the allegations or you being dumb enough to uncritically swallow them. Somehow, every half-truth, exaggeration and outright lie about Bush makes it into Tsurumi's account. I particularly like the part about Bush chewing and spitting tobacco in the back of class--nice touch.
By the way, the students who actually take Tsurumi's course at Baruch College describe him as anti-Bush whack job. What a surprise.:roll:
Hey now, getting deferments and draft dodging is only a bad thing if it's an evil republican. If a democrat does it, then it must have been the right thing to do, don't you know? 
Originally posted by: Double Trouble
Hey now, getting deferments and draft dodging is only a bad thing if it's an evil republican. If a democrat does it, then it must have been the right thing to do, don't you know?
This country needs more lawyers, am I right?
For goodness sakes, if we still found Cheney to be capable with respect to his deferments then so is Biden. Sure calling them out on double standards may be fun but it doesn't get us anywhere. Policies make the difference not his deferments from decades ago.
- Jul 18, 2004
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Yes, and the test conducted by a draft board in the 1960s was undoubtedly Spirometry--a test which is notoriously easy to fool. There is almost no chance that a 1960s draft board would have use the now more common and reliable test known as the methacholine challenge test. But hey, what do I know? I only defended asbestos exposure cases for seven years.
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