Surprise surprise: Israel blocks UN Jenin inquiry.

[Red Dawn]

Double Post

 

[Red Dawn]

<< I cant see how Israel can accept that, as it would leave the country defenseless when the next Arab intifada starts over the next fabricated reason. >>

The US will not ever let that happen. Plus who's going to supply the Sheiks with replacement parts for their F-15's that the Israeli's blow out of the sky? On top of that we are going to go and kick Hussein?s ass sp we will have a large deterrent force there breathing down Syria and who ever elses neck who might want to try.

 

[ThePresence]

<<

<< I cant see how Israel can accept that, as it would leave the country defenseless when the next Arab intifada starts over the next fabricated reason. >>

The US will not ever let that happen. Plus who's going to supply the Sheiks with replacement parts for their F-15's that the Israeli's blow out of the sky? On top of that we are going to go and kick Hussein?s ass sp we will have a large deterrent force there breathing down Syria and who ever elses neck who might want to try. >>



I doubt Israel will want to rely on the US or any other country coming to their defense. I think they will wanna be able to do that on their own. By going back to those old borders they severely restrict their abilty to repel an attack (which will eventually come).

 

[Martin]

<< The original topic was addressed shortly after MartyTheManiak posted this topic. He hung around for 3-1/2 hours after posting, but never offered a single response. How could anybody do that? Why would you bother posting in the first place, if you didn't intend to discuss it? >>




Reasons are:


1. Red Dawn has been doing all of my 'fighting' for me. I agree with his views almost entirely, so anything I add would be redundant.
2. thread proved popular, no need for bumps.



And what do you mean by "original topic was addressed"? As far as I can see, the debate is still going strong.

 

[Martin]

<< I doubt Israel will want to rely on the US or any other country coming to their defense. I think they will wanna be able to do that on their own. By going back to those old borders they severely restrict their abilty to repel an attack (which will eventually come). >>




They did it before and they can do it again. I believe total economic and military aid to Israel is about $3 billion/year.

Fact is, the only way for there to be any kind of peace is for the two sides to separate. All israelis should go in Israela and all Palestinians should go to a newly formed Palestine. That'll probably not stop the violence etirely, but it'll probably be reduced to petty border skirmishes, such as the ones between Lebanon and Israel right now.

Oh sure, Israel's economy might suffer, but its already suffering. There was a report on Lou Dobbs Moneyline the other day about how badly their economy is doing because of the conflict. Tourist industry's hurting big time and and conflict is scaring away investors. They also mentioned that some politicians want a 1% war levy (from all income) to help pay for the war.

The sooner this ends, the better for all of us.

 

[ThePresence]

<< They did it before and they can do it again. I believe total economic and military aid to Israel is about $3 billion/year. >>



But I dont see US soldiers defending Israel. Big difference. I also dont think Israel wants to rely on US soldiers to defend their country as was mentioned before.



<< Fact is, the only way for there to be any kind of peace is for the two sides to separate. All israelis should go in Israela and all Palestinians should go to a newly formed Palestine. That'll probably not stop the violence etirely, but it'll probably be reduced to petty border skirmishes, such as the ones between Lebanon and Israel right now. >>



A border skirmish usually means that soldiers from one side fire on the other, and the other side fires back, etc. This (Lebanon-Israel) is not that at all. Its Hezbollah terrorists shelling Israeli villages. I dont think the Israelis consider the death of their citizens "petty".



<< Oh sure, Israel's economy might suffer, but its already suffering. There was a report on Lou Dobbs Moneyline the other day about how badly their economy is doing because of the conflict. Tourist industry's hurting big time and and conflict is scaring away investors. They also mentioned that some politicians want a 1% war levy (from all income) to help pay for the war. >>



But the Red Dawn Plan would hurt both sides economies much, much worse than it is now. However, it has merit due to the fact that an economy is not as important as human life. Not that it could ever happen, though.



<< The sooner this ends, the better for all of us. >>



I dont think anyone would argue with that.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

My plan for peace:

Eradicate the hate. How do we do that?

Eradicate Islamic extremism. How do we do that?

Guns. Lots of guns.

 

[Piano Man]

 

[Capn]

I trust Israelis about as far as I can throw 'em. They're america's friend right now because it's in their best interests, but I don't doubt that they would turn on a dime if the situation changes. The palestinians aren't saints either, but that's not the topic here is it.

Some sort of fact finding mission should go in, maybe Israel has some real concerns, but there should be room for comprimise. If they didn't do anything wrong (as they claim) then there shouldn't be any reason to hide it.


Remember the USS Liberty

 

[Gaard]

<< I am tried of people trying to claim some middle ground by saying 'both israel and palestine are guilty of atrocities' Tell me you wacko fence sitters. what attrocities are you claiming israel commited? is defending yourselves from constant arab agression called an attrocity now? >>


Trying to claim middle ground? What do you mean? Just calling 'em like I see 'em. If you don't like the fact that I'd rather not be pro-Israel nor pro-Palestinians that's your problem. I'm not going to pick a side just to please someone. If someone commits an unforgivable act I'm going to say "that guy commited an unforgivabe act." Why do I have to blindly support a side here...like a lot of you seem to be doing? What is wrong with not supporting either side, but saying both sides have done some pretty despicable things?

de·beloved patriot·a·ble - adj. Deserving of contempt or scorn; vile.

The suicide bombers are despicable. They don't deserve to live. Acts of war are one thing. Acts of terrorism...targetting/killing civilians...are completely different and anyone who commits/funds/supports them are scum. Read that last part again...

<< and anyone who commits/funds/supports them are scum. >>

If it turns out that there was no massacre in Jenin that's great. I truly hope nothing like that happened over there. I would hope you all agree that no civilian, no matter which side of the fence they live on, deserves to die. If, however, it becomes clear that a massacre did happen, what will you Pro-Israel people say? How many will call it a despicable

<< deserving of contempt or scorn >>

and how many will simply make excuses?

ex·cuse - n An explanation offered to justify or obtain forgiveness.

Examples of excuses:
Israel soldiers fire at reporters.
Fvcking reporters shouldn't have been there.
They were only rubber bullets.
They were probably given multiple warnings to leave.
They might pass along secrets.

Israel soldiers kill bell-ringer
He was deaf and dumb so he didn't halt when told to.
It was dark. It could've been a soldier trying to escape.

Israel sniper shoots priest
Colateral damage.
It's the Palestinian's fault for running into the church.
This is war...shiit happens.

Another suicide bomber
The Palestinians don't have a military to speak of.
*Note- this is the only excuse I could find for using suicide bombers. There could be more but if there are I don't think there's that many and there's too damn many Israel/Palestinian threads to wade thru to look. And I'm not talking about that weird Texmaster logic here either..."You support this organization, and that organization made this statement, and my interpretation of that statement is that they support suicide bombing, therefore you support suicide bombing!"*



I'm not saying being Pro-Israel is wrong. I'm not saying being Pro-Palestine is wrong. I know a lot of you will come at me with personal attacks, and some will call me ignorant. Being called ignorant won't bother me in the least. I'll be the first to tell you I don't know jack about this situation. I used to think it was pretty simple...these guys fvcked with theses other guys, they want them out of (what they think is) their land. But some are saying it goes back decades, hell some are saying it goes back centuries! Who am I to pick a side when I don't know the whole story. And who are you? The Presence is the only one that I'm aware of who has had a personal view, and while that might make your (and any others') opinion more worthy of consideration, it also makes your opinion more biased. Should your word be taken unconditionally while at the same time the obviously biased Palestinian word be laughed at? (How many times has the Arab press been ridiculed and called unworthy of consideration due to bias?)

Final word: I'm not Pro-Israel nor Pro-Palestinians either, but that doesn't make me Anti-Israel nor Anti-Palestinians. It's obvious, IMO, that some of you think that way...if someone doesn't blindly support 100%, no matter how despicable, they must be for the other side. Just don't be sheep. You can support who you want, but if those whom you support step over the line call them on it. There's no disgrace in that.

 

[Nemesis77]

<<

<< There are plenty of advisors in the team. If they are not consulted, I bet the american in the team will make it public that his opinion was not asked. >>



But the question remains. Why wont Kofi let them be full-fledged deciding members of the team? >>



there could be several reasons. The more members there are, the more difficult it will be for them to agree on things.



<< EDIT: btw nemesis, I appreciate a civil debate. I like your style, you dont resort to name calling like some lesser people do. >>



Thanks . I agree, name-calling is rather counterproductive.

EDIT: fixed quoting

 

[Martin]

<< But I dont see US soldiers defending Israel. Big difference. I also dont think Israel wants to rely on US soldiers to defend their country as was mentioned before. >>




With that kinda money they hardly need US soldiers. Lets face is 80% of nations on earth would jump for joy if given that much money. Considering Israel's size (5 mil people if I'm not mistaken) that is a substancial amount. They one of the best militaries in the world. They hardly need to worry about an attack, let alone being taken over.



<< A border skirmish usually means that soldiers from one side fire on the other, and the other side fires back, etc. This (Lebanon-Israel) is not that at all. Its Hezbollah terrorists shelling Israeli villages. I dont think the Israelis consider the death of their citizens "petty". >>



Yet, isn't that better than 20 people getting killed in a resturant, no? Fact is, deaths from these skirmishes are far far fewer than from current suicide bombings.

Also, a large DMZ would reduce the chances of deaths.





<< But the Red Dawn Plan would hurt both sides economies much, much worse than it is now. However, it has merit due to the fact that an economy is not as important as human life. Not that it could ever happen, though. >>



The economies of both will recover eventually. Arab cheap labour can be replaced as can israeli investment.

 

[Nemesis77]

<< Until the UN says that they will investigate the bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria which killed 15 people, the bombing at the Matza restaurant which killed 15 people, the bombing at the Dolphinarium disco which killed 21 people, the bombing at the Park Hotel which killed 28 people, etc., I don't think Israel should trust the UN. >>



Why should they? I mean, those incidents are not in dispute. Palestinians suicide-bombers blew themselves up, killing israeli civilians in the process. No-one is trying to deny that, there's nothing the international team could study there.

Israel did try to tie them up to this case though. All in all, Israel demands regarding the team had been these (in more or less chronological order)

1. The team only studies the Jenin-incident, nothing more
2. The team must have military-experts as team-members
3. Israel must have the power to pick and choose the people the team interviews
4. The team should meet victims of suicide-bombers

Now, you notice that 1. and 4. are completely opposite. First Israel demands that they study the Jenin-incident, nothing more. Then they try to tie other incidents in to the case, incidents where Israel would definitely get a favourable ruling.

As to 2. The number of military-advisors in the team were increased in order to reach an agreemet with Israel. Yet, they still denied them access.

 

[Nemesis77]

<< last i read they had chosen atleast one anti jewish zealot to be on the investigation team. not exactly unbiased this UN. i'd keep them out too. >>



Who are you referring to? The former head of Red Cross? Because of his Star of David/Swastika-comments? I have posted this several times already, but I might as well do it again:



<< Media sources reported Israel's serious objections to the appointment of Sommaruga, who served as head of the Red Cross from 1987 to 1999. In an article written by Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer two years ago, Sommaruga was quoted as saying, "If we're going to have the Shield of David (as an accepted symbol for relief workers), why would we not have to accept the swastika?"

But Israeli Foreign Ministry legal adviser Alan Baker, who was present at the time of Sommaruga's remarks, said that using them to portray the Red Cross president as having an anti-Jewish bias was "a vile manipulation of something said in a different context," the Jerusalem Post reported.

Sommaruga, a 70-year-old Swiss citizen whose father saved Jews during the Holocaust, insisted that these comments were taken out of context. Diplomatic sources said that he is fair towards Israel, but very critical of its policies in the Palestinian territories, Yediot Aharonot reported. >>



Source

 

[Nemesis77]

FWIW: Amnesty International has visited the camp, and they said that they have found no evidence of a massacre, but they have found other evidence of war-crimes committed by IDF. What those war-crimes are, I have no idea.

EDIT: Amnestys report on Israeli actions.

 

[Format C:]

The madness has to end, sooner rather than later. Creating a buffer zone between Israel and its militant neighbors is the best idea I've heard so far and I think they should go for that option. They have more than enough nukes readily available to do so.

 

[dribgnikcom]

<< Now you wonder why a lot of Arabs hate Americans... they have some sort of biased attitude towards Isreal and treats Isrealian point of views like it is the gospel, ever since the day the isreali nation was formed. This form of blind commitment to Isreal and distrust to Arab nations starting in the mid 20th century is what will cause further tensions in the Middle East for probably the next couple of decades. >>



Yea... And that's why the Kashmiri Muslims hate the Indians, and that's why the Chechen Muslims hate and fight the Russians, why the Bosnian Muslims were killing Serb women and children, why Abu Sayyaf Muslims kill (decapitate) anyone they can grab in the Philippines, also why Sunni Muslims bombed a Shiite temple recently, and also why Muslims killed many Christians in Andor, Indonesia over the weekend...

Because they all "Have a biased attitude towards Israel".

Survey says: [LOUD WRONG NOISE]

Because it's institutionalized hatred from the Koran

Survey says: [DING! DING! DING! DING!]

 

[Ornery]

"...And what do you mean by "original topic was addressed"? As far as I can see, the debate is still going strong."

• Marty - Israel blocks UN Jenin inquiry.
  
  sward666 - The UN has already demonstrated who's side they're on...
  
  Red Dawn - they were the assholes that created Israel.
  
  travler - The UN is know to be biased and unsuportive of israel...
  
  PLO Supporter - Yeah they can trust the UN
  
  Israel Supporter - No they can't
  
  PLO Supporter - Yeah they can
  
  Israel Supporter - No they can't
  
  PLO Supporter - Yeah they can
  
  Israel Supporter - No they can't...

The debate is off topic now. Good point to jump back in

 

[Red Dawn]

Ornery just because I'm not a Israeli Apoligist you label me a PLO supporter? Tell me one instance where I voiced support for Arafat of the PLO!

P.S. I'm all for giving the Jews a Homeland, I just would have given them Oklahoma instead of the Area they have now. You see I like Jews and I would never have anybody I like move in to such a crummy nieghborhood with such lousy neighbors.

 

[Nitemare]

<< Until the UN says that they will investigate the bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria which killed 15 people, the bombing at the Matza restaurant which killed 15 people, the bombing at the Dolphinarium disco which killed 21 people, the bombing at the Park Hotel which killed 28 people, etc., I don't think Israel should trust the UN. >>



What's to investigate? The hamas and al aqsaeda/sp brigade pretty much take credit for whenever any Israeli gets killed. At least they do fess up when they do something...the bad thing is what they are taking credit for

 

[Random Variable]

<< What's to investigate? The hamas and al aqsaeda/sp brigade pretty much take credit for whenever any Israeli gets killed. At least they do fess up when they do something...the bad thing is what they are taking credit for >>





<< And of course there should be investigations, unless you don't want to know how many of the bombings Arafat and the PA financed and/or coordinated. >>

 

[Ornery]

"...just because I'm not a Israeli Apoligist you label me a PLO supporter?"

Off Topic logic, eh?

It's like GW says, "If you're not for us, you're against us." Simplistic, but true on it's most basic level. Between these two sides, given their history, I'll give Israel the benefit of a doubt. The tactics of the PLO are just cause for all the ire they get. If things don't go their way on occasion, I ain't gonna cry for them!

 

[Gaard]

<< It's like GW says, "If you're not for us, you're against us." Simplistic, but true on it's most basic level. >>


Translation - "Baaaaa baaaaa"

 

[Nitemare]

<<

<< What's to investigate? The hamas and al aqsaeda/sp brigade pretty much take credit for whenever any Israeli gets killed. At least they do fess up when they do something...the bad thing is what they are taking credit for >>





<< And of course there should be investigations, unless you don't want to know how many of the bombings Arafat and the PA financed and/or coordinated. >>

>>



[MacGyver]Works for me[/MacGyver]

and who should sign this Arafat also who is going to investigate this? A civilian like Pearl or the Israeli gestapo?

 

[Random Variable]

<< and who should sign this Arafat also who is going to investigate this? >>


Ummm...what did you just say?