Surge Protectors?

[Belial88]

Yeah so hard for you to read. I posted similar links back in October that you didn't read:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35663218&postcount=32

Right, and you weren't any different from the troll above you or on yahoo answers saying to buy some crap belkin. You made no clarification for those recommendations.

You just said, with zero reasoning 'hey bro, i use these 2, so you should use them. I have no real reason to recommend these 2 units, even though they are overpriced for your budget and underspecced and nothing at all what you asked for, at all'.

You did not explain yourself at all. It was an awful, useless post back then, and it's still an awful post worthy of ignoring. I asked very clearly I need to know a 'why', otherwise your post is no different from those on yahoo answers saying the power strip they bought from walmart is awesome.

 

[imagoon]

Right, and you weren't any different from the troll above you or on yahoo answers saying to buy some crap belkin. You made no clarification for those recommendations.

You just said, with zero reasoning 'hey bro, i use these 2, so you should use them. I have no real reason to recommend these 2 units, even though they are overpriced for your budget and underspecced and nothing at all what you asked for, at all'.

You did not explain yourself at all. It was an awful, useless post back then, and it's still an awful post worthy of ignoring. I asked very clearly I need to know a 'why', otherwise your post is no different from those on yahoo answers saying the power strip they bought from walmart is awesome.

Keep trolling bro. You don't even know what you want. Why don't you let this thread die and go back to your bridge? Because obviously your question wasn't answered in the previous 30 posts and some one can't post about devices they have had good luck with.

 

[Belial88]

Because I still want to see replies from people about their experiences with different whole house protectors, I want to know which whole house protector is best for the money, and I want to hear actual stories of people filing liability claims on surge protectors and whole house protectors, which so far have been zero.

Go away dude, you and westom both are extremely obnoxious. The question has been partly answered but there isn't much evidence or anecdotes beyond 'i used this surge protector, word'.

some one can't post about devices they have had good luck with.

Using a single surge protector that hasn't blown != good surge protector

 

[wildfox]

I just completed some research on my latest purchase of surge protectors. I'll be glad to share my learnings with you if you haven't already made your purchase (if you did, what did you choose?).

To confirm your requirements, your budget is $40 and what do you use for your internet connection (DSL, cable)?

 

[Micrornd]

I installed a Square-D whole house protector (SDSB1175C) about 5 yrs ago. It has an 80,000A rating and the surge modules are replaceable.
It also has telephone and cable modules in it, also replaceable.

I have not had any surge related problems since, in the general household.
By this I mean all light bulbs last longer, no ballasts for fluorescents needed replacement, no central AC capacitor or fan problems, no loss of speeds on ceiling fans, etc.
These can all be signs of surges of the lower level "non-destructive" type and they have been eliminated.

The capacitors used for motor run speeds in ceiling fans are very sensitive to overvoltage and repeated very high, but "non-destructive" spikes "burn-out" these capacitors leaving a multi-speed fan with only a single speed. This is one sure way to tell you need whole house surge protection, as these whole house protectors lop off the top of these "normal" power spikes and keep them within the working range of these "run" capacitors.

I still have all electronics on either surge suppressed power strips or UPS's with surge suppression to be safer as lightning-induced surges can be "inductive" into the house wiring from a close strike without coming in on the mains.
This is also to protect sensitive electronics against internal transients, the whole house protector works on these also.

If you don't know what "internal transients" are, google it.
They account for well over 70% of all cumulative electrical surge and spike damage in residences that damage electrical products over time and are generally erroneously blamed on powerline or lighting-based surges.

 

[wildfox]

... to protect sensitive electronics against internal transients, the whole house protector works on these also.

Interesting, that's different from what I've learned, which is that a whole house protector installed at the meter or panel does not protect from surges created internally in the home. Do you have any external reference that states otherwise?

 

[westom]

Interesting, that's different from what I've learned, which is that a whole house protector installed at the meter or panel does not protect from surges created internally in the home.

A 'whole house' protector protects from potentially destructive surges both inside and outside. Myths assume a protector is a blocking device; must be between a surge and an appliance. Effective protectors do not operate as myths claims; are not a blocking device.

Did research discuss different type of surges? A 'whole house' protector address all types.

A discussion without numbers means subjective claims create junk science reasoning. A spike generated inside is noise. Read a let-through number for each protector. So yes, a 'whole house' protector does not protect from that surge (maybe tens of volts). They did not lie. Since a 120 volt protector would ignore any voltage below 330 volts. Numbers on the box.

Myths are easily created when one does not demand numbers. That noise is well below what any protector will see. All surge protectors ignore that transient. Because that surge is too tiny to even damage dimmer switches. So yes, the protector cannot protect from an interior generated surge. Because protection already inside every appliance makes the transient irrelevant. Obvious from the numbers.

Yes, every protector does not protect from those 70% of surges. And need not even try. They *forgot* to provide what would have exposed the myth: numbers.

 

[wildfox]

A 'whole house' protector protects from potentially destructive surges both inside and outside.

So let's say I have a window-mount air conditioner unit in my bedroom that has some electrical fault which creates a large potentially destructive surge. Not talking about noise or some low voltage transient, but a real whopper. Will the whole-house protector at the meter/panel divert this internally generated surge to ground, or will the rest of my home devices be exposed to the surge?

 

[westom]

So let's say I have a window-mount air conditioner unit in my bedroom that has some electrical fault which creates a large potentially destructive surge.

How does your air conditioner generate electricity? A fault would cause excessive current resulting in a lower voltage or tripping a circuit breaker - zero volts. Where is this 330+ volt surge? No 330+ volts means a protector acts as if it does not exist.

In specific electrical numbers, what is this electrical surge created by an air conditioner? How does the air conditioner generate electricity to drive 120 volts to well above 330 volts? Remember, statements without numbers identify myths, hearsay, wild speculation, and junk science. What is the electrical anomaly created by the air conditioner? How does it generate energy?

Unfortunately, many know using word association (subjective reasoning). When a USB port declares a surge, does that mean it creates over 330 volts? Of course not. A USB port surge is some device drawing more than 0.25 amps current. When an Asus board announces it has created a surge, then it creates over 330 volts? Of course not. An Asus board announces its low DC voltages have gone even lower. Examples of the word 'surge' describing many unrelated electronic anomalies. None are a spike exceeding 330 volts.

If your air conditioner is creating 330 volt spikes, then it is also creating spikes as AC voltage goes to zero 100 or 120 times every second. Please explain how your air conditioner generates massive energy to increase 120 volts to well over 330 volts?

But again, if household appliances create destructive surges, then destroyed dimmer switches, digital clocks, and GFCIs are replaced daily. The interior generated surge is a myth created by fear and hearsay, and to promote sales of ineffective 'magic boxes'. If a threat exists, then it is defined with numbers for volts, amps, joules, and time. How does an air conditioner generate energy?

 

[wildfox]

Westom, my original question asked for an external reference supporting the claim that a whole-house surge protector would protect from internally generated surges. Since you did not provide that external reference, I formulated a hypothetical question I thought would provide a direct answer. But the jist of your last reply is that I was describing an impossible scenario so my question was nonsensical. Fair enough.

Belial88, I'm still glad to give you my input on selection of a plug-in surge protector under $40 if you haven't chosen one yet.

 

[Micrornd]

Wildfox - A whole house (TVSS) protector protects from internal transients the same way as from external, it is connected to the mains, neutral and ground @ the mains panel on the house side through a breaker, so any transient on the mains in the house is lopped off.

I say lopped off because whole house protectors are not generally designed to totally eliminate a surge, but rather reduce it to survivable level for most equipment and to continue to do this long term.
(i.e. most whole house units have a VPR of 600-800v L-N)
For more sensitive equipment, a local TVSS in some form is always advisable (they usually have a VPR of 330v).

As to internal transients, basically any device that starts an induction motor or starts a heating element can produce a transient voltage based on the inrush of current to the device and it's ability to act as transformer.

http://www.tvss.net/trans/trans-x.htm explains it in it's simplest form, although more complicated explanations can be had from the electrical engineering community.
http://www.lepstech.com/en/pdf/Transient-source.pdf is also written for laymen to understand.
(And, yes I realize both were written by a manufacturer of surge arrestors and surge suppressors, nevertheless, they explain the matter in plain English terms all can understand)

 

[wildfox]

Micrornd, thanks for explanation. Your setup is a good example of a multi-stage protection solution.

It sounds like your whole house protector is installed on the load side. Would it still provide protection from internal transients if it were installed on the line side or at the meter? Are there tradeoffs involved with the install location of the whole house protector?

 

[Micrornd]

ALL TVSS's (transient voltage surge suppressors) must be installed on the load side (after the first means of disconnect).

Whole house protectors are TVSS's and require a connection by circuit breaker to the mains to protect the wiring (and make replacement easier when required)

As to location, disregarding the above, theory is, the closer to the source of a transient a properly installed suppressor is, the slightly better chance it has of working more effectively.

Reality and theory usually overlap

 

[wildfox]

I'm now reminded that terminology is important. The 3rd edition of UL 1449 categories surge arrestors and TVSS's under the single umbrella term of Surge Protective Device (SPD), which I referred to loosely as a surge protector.

A surge arrestor is installed on the line side. A TVSS is installed on the load side.

Great thread, thanks to all!

 

[westom]

It sounds like your whole house protector is installed on the load side. Would it still provide protection from internal transients if it were installed on the line side or at the meter? Are there tradeoffs involved with the install location of the whole house protector?

Misunderstood is what a surge protector does. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Best protection on a coax cable is a wire from that cable, low impedance, to earth ground. No protector needed. Only component that must always exist is also the only component that harmlessly dissipates hundreds of thousands of joules: single point earth ground. It works for the same reason Franklin lightning rods work.

Effective protectors do not stop or block surges. Best protectors absorb even less energy.

When a utility wire cannot connect directly to earth ground (ie AC electric, DSL. telephone) then we make that same connection via a protector. A protector is does what a wire would do better.

Each protection layer is defined by what actually absorbs energy: earth ground. A 'whole house' protector is only 'secondary' protection. Also inspect your 'primary' protection layer (discussed earlier with a picture).

For the same reason, it matters little whether the 'whole house' protector is in a breaker box or behind the meter. Because the path to earth ground is most critical. For example, assume a 'whole house' protector is in a breaker box. A 6 AWG (quarter inch solid copper) ground wire goes up over the foundation and down to an earth ground rod. Then protection is compromised for reasons in the next paragraph.

That ground wire is too long (ie more than 10 feet). It has sharp bends. It is bundled with other non-grounding wires. Three reasons why protection is compromised. Protection is not defined by a protector. Protection is defined by a 'low impedance' connection to what does protection: single point earth ground. Because earth ground (not a protector) absorbs energy. Because protection is always about how hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly get to and are dissipated by what does protection.

One 'whole house' protector and a chain of plug-in protectors is only 'one' layer of protection. Each protection layer is defined only by the one component that actually does all protection - earth ground. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Difficult to grasp by those who learned only from advertising.

If a 'whole house' protector (behind a meter or in a breaker box) has a low impedance connection to earth, then a 'whole house' protector (whose let-through voltage is only 330 volts - not 600) does well over 95% of protection.

If a 'whole house' protector does not exist or is not properly earthed, then plug-in protectors can even make appliance damage easier. Protection is always defined by the only system component that must always exist - single point earth ground. Each layer of protection is defined by what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules.

Why does 'closer to the source' work? Because separation between a protector and electronics (increased impedance) increases protection. And because every foot shorter (lower impedance) to earth ground also increases protection.

A direct lightning strike far down the street approaches a house. It comes to a 'Y' at the service entrance. Current can go directly to earth via a 'whole house' protector. Or current can go to earth destructively via household appliances. Only a homeowner makes that decision. If a protector path is electrically shorter (ie lower impedance), then current need not find earth destructively via household appliances. Protection is always about which branch of that 'Y' is shorter. Protection is always about where energy dissipates and how it gets there. Every foot shorter to earth increases protection.

Each layer of protection is only defined by that earth ground. These concepts have been understood and proven by example for over 100 years.

 

[westom]

The 3rd edition of UL 1449 categories surge arrestors and TVSS's under the single umbrella term of Surge Protective Device (SPD), which I referred to loosely as a surge protector.

UL1449 only defines these device for human safety purposes. UL is only about human safety; not transistor safety.

UL1449 was created because protectors so routinely caused house fires. UL defines a protector so that UL1449 is only applied to a protector - not to a motor or fuse. UL1449 says nothing about whether a surge protector does effective protection.

UL1449 is about how likely a protector will create a fire and other serious human safety issues. Plug-in protectors still create fires. Plug-in protectors need protection provided by a different device (also called a protector) - a properly earthed 'whole house' protector.

 

[Micrornd]

I'm now reminded that terminology is important. The 3rd edition of UL 1449 categories surge arrestors and TVSS's under the single umbrella term of Surge Protective Device (SPD), which I referred to loosely as a surge protector.

A surge arrestor is installed on the line side. A TVSS is installed on the load side.

Great thread, thanks to all!

Correct, a surge arrestor is designed to protect the structure's wiring (actually the insulation on the wiring) and begins clapming at a much higher voltage than a surge suppressor which is designed to protect devices connected to the structure's wiring, which begins clamping at a lower voltage. Additionally arrestors are (by UL stds.) able normally to self-destruct violently (within limits), while suppressors are not.
Think fire, flash, shrapnel

TVSS's may be had in quite number of pass-thru voltage ratings.
It is important to choose the correct VPR rating for your application.
VPR, not the older SVR that is still advertised by many OEMs and is no longer relevant as it gave lower than real world results.
The VPR testing system was developed after years of real world result analysis.

Most SVR ratings falsely gave a 330v rating when in actual use they were much higher. It doesn't matter at what voltage a suppressor starts clamping, say 330v, if it allows 500v through before it actually clamps to 330v on a long surge (relatively speaking, of course), hence the reason (in part) the 3rd gen 1149 and the reason the VPR system was developed.

That is why the testing standard was changed and is now more realistic of what the suppressor is actually capable of (no test standard is perfect, hence the reason testing standards are changed when improved testing methods are developed)

VPR ratings may go as low as 180v currently, while 130v is theoretical and now being approached by some newer suppressor designs.
Although 130v may not be practical from a life/use point, since many power utilities fluctuate this much.
( I know there are doubters of this, but I'd say look at the line voltage with a less damped or less averaged meter, the fluctuations can be scary)
150v is seems to be becoming the agreed upon low limit from a practical usage point of view.

One last thing, remember that the higher the kA rating of the MOVs used in the suppressor the longer the suppressors life, relatively speaking, when handling "normal, routine" transients.

 

[westom]

An appliance adjacent protector and a 'whole house' protector both have 330 let-through voltages (read its box). 330 volts is when a protector (even a 150 volt MOV) starts protecting. A 'whole house' protector is more robust. A surge that causes a 'whole house' protector to rise to 400 volts would otherwise cause a plug-in protector to rise to 900+ volts.

Plug-in protectors suffer higher voltages 1) due to undersizing and 2) due to a missing low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. Another critically relevant question, "Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate?"

Undersizing is a reason why plug-in protectors must be protected by a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Then a 400 volt surge on a 'whole house' protector does not create 900 volts on a plug-in protector.

If grossly undersized, then some 900 volts cause a protector failure. Its thermal fuse must disconnect protector parts as fast as possible to avert fire. (Protector's light only reports a fail due to undersizing.) Sometimes that thermal fuse does not open fast enough. Voltage approaching or exceeding 900 volts is why some fires resulted and the creation of UL1449.

Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? Plug-in protectors do not have an earth ground, do not claim to protect from typically destructive surges, and then fail when a surge (too tiny to damage other appliances) creates protector destructive voltages.

330 let-through voltage is when a protector starts doing protection. 150 volts is when a protector conducts a massive (tongue in cheek) 1 milliamp. Numbers are from numerous MOV datasheets. 150 volts is when an MOV conducts a massive 0.001 amps. An important number for designers that is irrelevant to consumers. 150 volts says nothing about protection. Protection starts at 330 volts - as written on each box.

Nothing is theoretical here. These concepts are proven by over 100 years of experience. Telcos used 'whole house' protectors (not plug-in protectors) to protect $multi-million computers even before any of us existed. Because a properly earthed 'whole house' protector means higher voltages (ie 900 volts) do not exist inside the building.

Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Useful recommendations answer that question. Otherwise protector voltages may exceed 900 volts.

A higher kA rating means a longer protector life expectancy over many surges AND lower voltages during each surge. Just another reason why 'whole house' protectors are 50,000 amps or greater. But only if a protector is properly earthed. Useful recommendations always say where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Normal protection is a direct lightning strike without damage even to a protector. Normal protection is when nobody knew that surge existed.

 

[wildfox]

... If grossly undersized, then some 900 volts cause a protector failure. Its thermal fuse must disconnect protector parts as fast as possible to avert fire. (Protector's light only reports a fail due to undersizing.) ...

Westom, what does the "Protection Working" light on a plug-in surge protector actually signify? Does it indicate 1) that the thermal fuse is still intact/closed, or 2) that the MOV is still intact, or 3) that the MOV is both intact and has not degraded below its rated protective level?

 

[westom]

Westom, what does the "Protection Working" light on a plug-in surge protector actually signify? Does it indicate 1) that the thermal fuse is still intact/closed, or 2) that the MOV is still intact, or 3) that the MOV is both intact and has not degraded below its rated protective level?

A 'Protector Good' light only reports on the state of an internal thermal fuse (not to be confused another 15 amp breaker). Unacceptable failures for any MOV (as defined by datasheets under Absolute Maximum Parameters) is to burn, flame, or fail catastrophically. A thermal fuse must disconnect MOVs as fast as possible. While leaving the surge connected to an adjacent appliance or computer.

A picture demonstrates the concept entitled All 6 MOVs removed from circuit board. They removed MOVs, The 'Protector Good' light says the protector is still functional. Is it when all MOVs are removed?

'Protection Good' light only reports on a thermal fuse. Fuse only trips when a protector is grossly undersized. That light warns the homeowner that his protector was too tiny - therefore dangerous.

Normal failure mode for MOVs is degradation. That means its threshold voltage (Vb) changes by maybe 5%. An MOV manufacturer even describes how to test MOVs.

The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse listed below is applied 10,000 times continuously with the interval of ten seconds at room temperature.

10,000 pulses? MOVs that fail on the first pulse are grossly undersized and a threat to human life. A problem so common that UL1449 was created. Because MOVs should remain intact (no visual indication), only degrade by 5%, and not trip that thermal fuse.

MOVs cannot be reported by any protector as degraded. In part, because testing is destructive - would exceed that datasheet 150 volt number.

A Protector Good light only reports that the emergency backup protection was activated to avert fire. An undersized (and often grossly overpriced) protector. Effective protection means nobody knew a surge existed.

 

[wildfox]

... Normal failure mode for MOVs is degradation...

Understood. Of course, a typical consumer is not going to perform a bench test to determine if an MOV has degraded to end-of-life. Is there a recommended time interval to replace a plug-in surge protector with a new one?

 

[westom]

Understood. Of course, a typical consumer is not going to perform a bench test to determine if an MOV has degraded to end-of-life.

Nobody does that testing. First, since even a degraded protector is still doing protection.

Since lightning is typically 20,000 amps, than a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Then an AC protector remains functional even after multiple lightning strikes. And should remains good for decades. If in venues where surges might occur more than once every seven years (ie some FL neighborhoods that may suffer a surge every two or three years), then a 100,000 amps protector is probably a good idea.

A myth of daily or hourly surges is widely believed and easily promoted to increase sales of undersized protectors (some trip that 'Protector Good' light).

A 'whole house' protector of at least 50,000 amps means protection at about $1 per appliance. Oversizing a 'whole house' protector means a better connection to earth and really costs very little more money.

Failure mode for the telco 'installed for free' 'whole house' protector is usually a dead short. This can create no dialtone, line noise, or another unique situation where a caller (from some other phone line) hears it ring once and is then disconnected.

 

[wildfox]

I would consider a conservative replacement strategy for plug-in surge protectors (SPD Type 3) to be every ten years, or when there is a significant design improvement, e.g. UL1449 2nd edition which added a thermal disconnect for safety.

 

[Belial88]

I just completed some research on my latest purchase of surge protectors. I'll be glad to share my learnings with you if you haven't already made your purchase (if you did, what did you choose?).

To confirm your requirements, your budget is $40 and what do you use for your internet connection (DSL, cable)?

Haven't bought anything yet. Yea, budget of ~$40. I use cable for internet.

From what I've gathered, just get the cheapest whole house protector I can, and then maybe some cheapo utilitech surge protector for some low range protection as well as the insurance. The Tripplite Isobars are also really good but they aren't nearly as good as a whole house protector so no point in getting them.

 

[wildfox]

Let's start by stipulating that the most effective power protection solution starts with a whole-house surge protector (SPD Type 2) supplemented by plug-in protectors (SPD Type 3) for point-of-use devices. The greatest portion of cost for the whole-house protector is hiring a licensed electrician to install it.

Let me also disclose that I'm not a professional engineer but I have a technical background. I don't have any association with industry vendors or trade groups. I enjoy participating in DIY forums like this one.

For a budget of $40, I recommend the APC P6N surge protector (link shown below). I like this unit for the following reasons:

- UL1449 3rd edition Voltage Protection Rating (VPR) of 400v for all modes L-N, L-G, N-G. I would be equally satisfied with a VPR of either 400v or 500v.

- Six outlets, two of which have spacing for large plugs.

- Has two indicator lights which are intuitive and easy to understand at quick glance. The green Protection Working light is normally on and shows the device is providing power to the outlets and the thermal fuse is closed indicating that the MOV's are intact. The red Building Wiring Fault light is normally off and only turns on when you have a faulty ground connection. So think ... "green is good and red is bad".

- Has APC "fail safe" feature which disconnects power to the connected devices if the thermal fuse opens and the green Protection Working light goes out. Most other surge protector brands will continue to supply power to the devices without protection, which might be desirable in special cases (e.g., a refrigerator stocked with food) but not for the typical computer setup.

- The outlets are light colored (white). I like this because if there was ever a serious problem that caused overheating/burning with charring of the outlets, it will be visually obvious on a light colored case. You wouldn't even notice such a problem on a black case.

- Has signal protection for Ethernet with RJ45 jacks. You connect the output of your cable modem to the protector, and the protector to your computer. Never insert a surge protector on the cable side of the modem as it will interfere with your signal reliability. In the event you have a destructive cable surge, your modem may be damaged but your computer should be protected. In the case where your modem is damaged, the cable company will probably replace it free. It's also a good idea to check your outside cable junction to confirm that it was properly grounded by the cable installer. (If you were using DSL for your internet service, I would recommend the APC P7T10 surge protector with RJ11 Telco protection.)

- The joules rating is 1080 joules, but ignore this rating as joules are not regarded as useful for choosing a surge protector despite the marketing. The robustness of this surge protector has met the requirements of UL1449-3 for Nominal Discharge Current of 3KA (or a Duty Cycle test for other brands/models of UL conforming surge protectors).

- Has a $50K equipment protection policy. But good luck collecting on any policy from any surge protector company. You will probably have better luck with your homeowner's insurance or making a claim with your utility. While surge protector companies have a reputation of being difficult on paying claims for protected equipment, they all get positive feedback on replacing a damaged surge protector unit with a new one.

- The AC power cord is only 4' long. The AC plug is a regular straight plug, not a flat right-angle plug. These factors may or may not be an issue for you.

- Price is between $15 - $25 at various online stores.

Here is the link to the mfg product page:

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=P6N