Surge Protectors?

[Belial88]

So i don't really understand surge protectors, except that they are very complicated, joules is not everything (just like psu wattage is 100% useless as an indication of psu capability), and clamping voltage is another related spec.

Also, it seems that TrippLite is the big reliable(?) brand to go with.

However, I see even $7 7 outlet tripplite's on newegg with $10,000 guarantees for what's hooked up to it.

Since this will be just to hook up my computer system - Haswell i7, multiple 7950s, 3 monitors, but still FAR short of $10K, ie maybe $2000 at most in total and that's really stretching it and including non-electrical peripherals - why do I care how good the surge protector is? I mean even if a surge blows this 'crappy' protector out, so what, I get it all replaced.

Sure, a minor inconvenience, but this is not a business application, just personal, so it's not pressing that I'm out a day or few weeks of a main PC, and I can cover $2000 just fine as long as I can expect the money from Tripplite in due time.

I can't find many reports on personal experiences with insurances on surge protectors, but I don't find anything bad on Tripplite, seems to be highly recommendable (hard to google-fu this without tons of sales listings).

I was thinking either like their cheapest 7-outlet surge on newegg and just buy 2@$7/ea=$14, or buy their 12 outlet $35 one (for black, could get the $29 instead).

I mean am I missing something here? I've heard the whole 'oh if you want real protection, install some stuff into your main breaker circuit it's so ezpz' or 'get a ups' but come on, this is an i7 build ~$600, so doesn't justify such equipment.

tldr why bother with a nice surge protector for personal computer system when the insurance covers you completely? that and help picking a unit, really.

 

[Blain]

"Insured" amounts are for marketing flash. Forget "brand" for the most part.
MOV type protectors lose a little life each surge, until they are just power strips with an on/off switch.
...But at least they are cheap

 

[westom]

So i don't really understand surge protectors, except that they are very complicated, joules is not everything (just like psu wattage is 100% useless as an indication of psu capability), and clamping voltage is another related spec.

Surge protectors are simple science that was originally introduced in elementary school science. The complications come from advertising and hearsay that contradict that science.

Lightning seeks earth ground. A path for a 20,000 amp electric surge is via a wooden church steeple destructively to earth. Wood is not a good conductor. So 20,000 amps creates a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Church steeple damaged.

Franklin installed a lightning rod. 20,000 amps is via a wire to an earthing electrode. High current creates near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. Nothing damaged.

Lightning seeks earth ground. A lightning strike to utility wires far down the street is a direct strike, incoming to every household appliance, destructively to earth. Appliances are not a good conductor. So lightning creates a high voltage. Lightning current times a high voltage is high energy. Appliances damaged.

For over 100 years, facilities that cannot have damage installed superior earthing connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') via one 'whole house' protector. Then high current creates near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No appliance is damaged.

Many argue pointed verse blunt lightning rods when the earth ground protects a structure. Many argue joules or clamping voltage when the distance to and quality of earth ground protects appliances. Protection of a structure or appliances is always about the connection to earth.

Read its fine print. Its insurance has numerous exemptions so claims can be rejected. Many learned this the hard way. From Hawkwind on 1 Sept 2009 entitled "Whole House Surge Protection?"

A friend of mine lost a room full of very expensive electronic test equipment do to a surge from a lightening strike miles away. He had every piece of equipment plugged into Tripp-Lite strips all around the room. There was not a cloud in the sky but you could hear lightening strikes way off in the distance. Then out of the blue. POW, he said it sounded as if someone had tossed a very large firecracker into the room. Then you had the smell of burnt electrical components.

He tried to make a claim with Tripp-Lite and was turned down over and over again on loop holes. He had every bill for every piece of equipment that was lost. After trying to fight it for months he just gave up and filed an insurance claim on his homeowners policy.

What happens when a protector fails? A surge current incoming to that protector is simultaneously outgoing into the appliance. If that outgoing path does not exist, then electricity does not exist. A protector fails by disconnecting its protector parts as fast as possible. While leaving attached appliances connected to AC mains (and the surge). Where is the protection? Appliance not damaged because protection inside the appliance is more robust.

If a protectors thermal fuse does not disconnect fast enough, then internal protector parts might create a fire. The light only indicates protector parts were undersized; had to be disconnected as fast as possible to avert a fire.

Disconnect as fast as possible? Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules will that power strip or UPS absorb? Hundreds? Thousands? Read its specification numbers. So that a fire does not exist, that protector must disconnect near zero joules from typically destructive surges (hundreds of thousands of joules).


A completely different device is also called a surge protector. But this other device does not block or absorb surges. Instead it makes the always requires and low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. Adjacent plug-in protectors do not make that low impedance connection. One 'whole house' protector does to protect all appliances (including the furnace, dishwasher, and smoke detectors).

Read its specification numbers. A minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. So that even 20,000 amps direct lightning strikes do not damage the protector. How many amps go to earth? That is what effective protectors do. Connect that current to earth so that the current is nowhere inside the building.

A effective 'whole house' protector makes that low impedance connection to earth. A power strip or UPS does not. And will not discuss earth ground. Instead a mythical warranty hopes you stay confused.

Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? That question separates two completely different devices - both called surge protectors. Best protection for all appliances is a connection from the incoming utility wire to earth. Cable TV has best protection; a hardwire from that cable to earth ground at the service entrance. No protector needed.

Telephone/DSL wires cannot connect directly to earth. So a 'whole house' protector is earthed (for free) by your telco. A protector only does what a wire would do better.

What connects incoming AC wires to earth? Those wires also cannot connect directly. So a 'whole house' protector (from other companies with better integrity) connects hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly to earth. Protection is always about a connection to what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules.

Protectors are simple science. The 'art' of protection is the single point earth ground. All four words have technical significance. And are completely avoided by devices (with big buck warranties) that do not claim to protect from typically destructive surges. Learn why a 'whole house' protector is earthed in any facility that cannot have damage. The critical number is at least 50,000 amps. See those first five paragraphs to learn why. Appreciate how many myths were debunked.

 

[fixbsod]

Sometimes it's also a convenience issue -- I have a UPS as my house will easily trip a breaker without too much load (tv, oven, computer and then try the microwave .. .trip). With the UPS nothing is lost or shutdown and I don't have to race to flip it too, got a good chunk of time to get down to the box.

 

[CM Phaedrus]

Westom is a shill and doesn't understand electrical engineering. Ignore.



MOV type surge protectors are actually quite simple. You usually get an inductor and an X capacitor (at least in ones I've opened), which filter electrical noise, and one or more MOVs which absorb surge energy. More MOVs or more Joules is not always better though, for complicated reasons.

There are alternative schemes. But it can basically be summarized like this. Do you want to protect against nearby lightning strikes and are willing to accept a small amount of risk? The cheap-os are OK. Do you want complete protection of all devices, including against strikes directly to the building or utility pole? Open your wallet and check your credit card limit.

 

[aigomorla]

Surge protector is not a UPS.

However a UPS can be a surge protector tho.

You can not do it the other way around....

And ive lost more PC's from Brown's then Surges in all my life... im more worried about browns then surges.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

And ive lost more PC's from Brown's

Is that always with quality branded power supplies, and a decently connected mains wall supply (i.e. Grounded, good quality well maintained home wiring) ?

 

[aigomorla]

Is that always with quality branded power supplies, and a decently connected mains wall supply (i.e. Grounded, good quality well maintained home wiring) ?

yes... and no..

good psu... poor wiring on electrical on the house until i redid the entire grid to my server room.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

yes... and no..

good psu... poor wiring on electrical on the house until i redid the entire grid to my server room.

Don't take what I'm about to say as Gospel, different people/sources, seem to say different things about this.

Anyway, my understanding (especially in the UK, where good ground connections are commonplace), is that if you have a brown out (i.e. the wall socket mains voltage halves (approximately) and then comes back up to normal), some device(s) can cause huge voltages to suddenly appear (surges/spikes/etc), due to their inductances (and other circuit effects).

Despite what some people say (even within this thread probably), my experience knows that many mains devices have (limited) line filtering (capacitors etc), and from what I have seen, that is usually connected (relies on) the ground connection.

Therefore what may have really happened is that the "Brown out" caused a surge, which "may" have been absorbed/coped-with if you had a good ground (bare in mind UK electrical standards are different to the US, so what I say MAY NOT apply in the US), which could have damaged your power supply/computer/equipment.

I've done some limited tests with ground disconnections (Electronics test/development work, NOT for domestic use/practices), and found that it is very easy for significant potential differences between the equipment and the wall mains supply, to build up.

Therefore I (personally) in the first instance blame the lack of a good ground, as the main damaging problem.

On this very forum, a number of (nameless) poster(s) disagree (in at least one case, VERY strongly). We (the unnamed poster(s) and me will have to agree to disagree), because I still am convinced that good grounds are important for decent computer equipment long term reliability.

There are other possible solutions. E.g. In a factory (like) environment, the monitoring computer we used, connected in a machine like environment, would sometimes dramatically break (with a bang, if I remember correctly). A number of times.
Ironically it was grounded, but the problem is a factory/machine environment, with VERY high current/voltage loads being switched, and three phase electricity, etc etc, can cause electrical differences between machinery, easily big enough to damage the computer (which it did).

Without going in to finer details, a combination of professional electrical work, as regards the mains/ground wiring and optical isolation of the computer connections, managed to solve the problem.

There is no need to get into a big argument, over if it was a surge or not. Really tests would have to be made, and there are a number of possible different electrical issues (in theory) which could have blown your PC.

Where a computer has a serious role (as I'm sure many on these forums already know), e.g. Server (to lots of users), it is standard practice for it to have at least an UPS (in the UK), with back up generators if it is a very big/important role. Because even if the brown out did not damage the computer, the data could easily be corrupted.

 

[imagoon]

Lightning seeks earth ground. A path for a 20,000 amp electric surge is via a wooden church steeple destructively to earth. Wood is not a good conductor. So 20,000 amps creates a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Church steeple damaged.

Franklin installed a lightning rod. 20,000 amps is via a wire to an earthing electrode. High current creates near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. Nothing damaged.

This violates the law of conservation of energy. Let's us look at what is actually happening here. Wood is a poor conductor but the lightning has a voltage above the insulator breakdown voltage of the wood creating and ionized and conductive path through the wood. This causes the lightning to penetrate the woods insulation properties but it does so at a very high cost generating heat which causes any number of things to happen like fire, boiling the water content and causing it to fracture etc.

Now there is a lightning rod on the church. Electricity will generally take the lowest resistance path and as such takes the wire down the side to ground.

The total power in both cases is the same. The wood didn't cause a voltage spike, that is caused by the high potential energy leading to a ionized conductive path through air and the wood to the earth. This is the same effect as a xenon arc lamp where the arc jumps the gap once it passes the break down voltage of the gas. The multi-mile jump through the air is what drives the voltage up in a strike, the last 30-100 feet of a church steeple isn't going to have a significant effect on the lightning. The rods work on redirection of the energy and not manipulating.

Also, current does not create voltage. Voltage is the electrical potential between 2 objects. Amperage is the amount or rate of power flow between 2 objects. Power = V * A. In this case the voltage of the lightning is going to be controlled by the breakdown and ionization path in the air itself this will create a maximum amperage which will affect the voltage. Due to the ratio of power, the same lightning strike in both examples have the same power. Since you stated the 20,000amps in your faulty example the only way that (V1*A1) = (V2*A2) with A1 = 20,000 and A2=20,000 is if voltage is also identical.

Lightning seeks earth ground. A lightning strike to utility wires far down the street is a direct strike, incoming to every household appliance, destructively to earth. Appliances are not a good conductor. So lightning creates a high voltage. Lightning current times a high voltage is high energy. Appliances damaged.
[/qoute]

No. The appliances are a better path to ground than the poles because they hook directly to neutral and ground. The high voltage caused by the ionization break down and high current dissipating leads to the surge.

What connects incoming AC wires to earth? Those wires also cannot connect directly. So a 'whole house' protector (from other companies with better integrity) connects hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly to earth. Protection is always about a connection to what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules.

A neutral is connected to earth. The 'whole house' protector is nothing more than a very large MOV attached to ground. It doesn't help if the ground is poor or the incoming power exceeds the pass through power limit. That whole house protector would rarely be able to sink a real lightning strike to ground. Lightning if typically around 500 megajoules at over 30,000 amps. Some of the largest residential whole house protectors are rated at 36000amp and 4000-5000 joules. A device rated for 5000 joules is not going to stop 500,000,000 joules.

 

[imagoon]

Don't take what I'm about to say as Gospel, different people/sources, seem to say different things about this.

Anyway, my understanding (especially in the UK, where good ground connections are commonplace), is that if you have a brown out (i.e. the wall socket mains voltage halves (approximately) and then comes back up to normal), some device(s) can cause huge voltages to suddenly appear (surges/spikes/etc), due to their inductances (and other circuit effects).

Despite what some people say (even within this thread probably), my experience knows that many mains devices have (limited) line filtering (capacitors etc), and from what I have seen, that is usually connected (relies on) the ground connection.

Therefore what may have really happened is that the "Brown out" caused a surge, which "may" have been absorbed/coped-with if you had a good ground (bare in mind UK electrical standards are different to the US, so what I say MAY NOT apply in the US), which could have damaged your power supply/computer/equipment.

I've done some limited tests with ground disconnections (Electronics test/development work, NOT for domestic use/practices), and found that it is very easy for significant potential differences between the equipment and the wall mains supply, to build up.

Therefore I (personally) in the first instance blame the lack of a good ground, as the main damaging problem.

On this very forum, a number of (nameless) poster(s) disagree (in at least one case, VERY strongly). We (the unnamed poster(s) and me will have to agree to disagree), because I still am convinced that good grounds are important for decent computer equipment long term reliability.

There are other possible solutions. E.g. In a factory (like) environment, the monitoring computer we used, connected in a machine like environment, would sometimes dramatically break (with a bang, if I remember correctly). A number of times.
Ironically it was grounded, but the problem is a factory/machine environment, with VERY high current/voltage loads being switched, and three phase electricity, etc etc, can cause electrical differences between machinery, easily big enough to damage the computer (which it did).

Without going in to finer details, a combination of professional electrical work, as regards the mains/ground wiring and optical isolation of the computer connections, managed to solve the problem.

There is no need to get into a big argument, over if it was a surge or not. Really tests would have to be made, and there are a number of possible different electrical issues (in theory) which could have blown your PC.

Where a computer has a serious role (as I'm sure many on these forums already know), e.g. Server (to lots of users), it is standard practice for it to have at least an UPS (in the UK), with back up generators if it is a very big/important role. Because even if the brown out did not damage the computer, the data could easily be corrupted.

I have to agree with you on the equipment surges. If we are thinking about the same unnamed poster, he told me that this I was "caught by the numbers game." I guess things like large electric motors shutting down requiring energy dissipaters as they spin down is just "being caught up in the numbers." Having seen 5 foot arcs to ground as they were spinning down was my imagination . When this tries to dissipate in to the grounding system or neutrals when not controlled properly, it wrecks havoc with near by systems as you mentioned. We used isolated power for controls and optics for data like it sounds like you did.

 

[aigomorla]

Don't take what I'm about to say as Gospel, different people/sources, seem to say different things about this.

heh.. im not a electrician... my electrical skills are limited to voltages below the 12V line... lol...

but yeah.. when i got my new grid installed, they did pike a new very expensive grounding rod when installing a new breaker that was going to just that room.

Havent had any issues since...
My Metered PDU also shows stable voltages on the circuit that feeds each ups.

Havent had issues after that.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

I have to agree with you on the equipment surges. If we are thinking about the same unnamed poster, he told me that this I was "caught by the numbers game." I guess things like large electric motors shutting down requiring energy dissipaters as they spin down is just "being caught up in the numbers." Having seen 5 foot arcs to ground as they were spinning down was my imagination . When this tries to dissipate in to the grounding system or neutrals when not controlled properly, it wrecks havoc with near by systems as you mentioned. We used isolated power for controls and optics for data like it sounds like you did.

Exactly right, yes we did isolate the power, as well.

Ironically the poster was not Westom (although I definitely don't 100% agree with everything they say), but some forum posters who (obvious to me) seemed to need to get a proper ground connection, to avoid regularly blowing their PC power supply (or similar trouble).
But despite my attempts, they would usually NOT be persuaded to get a proper electrician in to sort out their mains electricity wall sockets.
In defence of some of the posters, they were in rented accommodation, which can make it very tricky/difficult to get grounding properly sorted out.

heh.. im not a electrician... my electrical skills are limited to voltages below the 12V line... lol...

but yeah.. when i got my new grid installed, they did pike a new very expensive grounding rod when installing a new breaker that was going to just that room.

Havent had any issues since...
My Metered PDU also shows stable voltages on the circuit that feeds each ups.

Havent had issues after that.

I'm glad you got it sorted out in the end, and that it is working well.

In other threads ...
I find it very frustrating when a fellow forum poster, is having terrible problems with their PC, and it is in obvious need of a decent, quality computer power supply.
And they ignore all the good advice and say "I did not need to buy a PSU in the end, my $8.99 case, from worstBuyEver.con has one built in it, so it is just fine". (Or similar).

Proof. About 2 days ago, I gave similar advice, as they had a cheapo, unheard of brand PSU. They seemed to totally ignore me (I was essentially saying, GET A PROPER PSU).

In the last 24 hours (approx), they have started up a new thread, saying that the cheapo PSUs based computer, is now completely broken, and won't turn on.

 

[John Connor]

OMG! here we go again. This will turn into a technical argument with Westom.

 

[Belial88]

A friend of mine lost a room full of very expensive electronic test equipment do to a surge from a lightening strike miles away. He had every piece of equipment plugged into Tripp-Lite strips

Can you please provide a source for this anecdote?

Because I'm a little weary of how true this story is. Also, we're talking ~$1000 of electronics here at most, not $100k+. When I get into that range, I'll look into house electric units and such, but until then. I'm not so sure a company will fight a $1000 claim so hard.

If what you say is true though, I will completely avoid Tripplite. But, I've filed an RMA claims and rebates through just about every single computer tech company, and only NZXT has ever given me trouble (10+ phone calls). Gigabyte took 2 months, but otherwise every company has been very, very quick.

My house is about 100 years old, in the ghetto. I would not trust the wiring to be good. Also, crackheads took out all the wiring on the bottom half of the house. Shitty contractors have put it back together but I wouldn't trust to say my house has good ground and all this stuff.

I'm not sure where you guys are going with church steeples and stuff. I just want to get a surge protector that basically will insure my $1000 of computer electronics, I don't really care about quality of surge protector if I can just be insured.

But, if I can't, and even if I can, I still need help picking units out.

My room is all one circuit, by the way.

 

[westom]

I'm not sure where you guys are going with church steeples and stuff. I just want to get a surge protector that basically will insure my $1000 of computer electronics, I don't really care about quality of surge protector if I can just be insured.

Insurance is best obtained from companies that are required to meet state insurance laws. Warranties are often promoted on lesser products.

View specification numbers. If your electronics need protection, then your furnace, air conditioner, dishwasher, refrigerator, clocks, and dimmer switches also need the same protection. Either that current is earthed before it can enter a building. Or that current goes hunting for earth destructively via appliances. No different than what was taught in elementary school science about Franklin and protecting church steeples.

Again, no protector does protection. Best is a wire from an incoming utility cable to
what does protection: earth ground. TV cable has that wire as required by code. Telephone/DSL cannot connect directly to earth. So a protector does what a wire would otherwise do better. An effective protector is only a connecting device to earth.

One 'whole house' protector is needed for AC mains. These are provided by companies with better integrity including Siemens, Intermatic, Polyphaser, General Electric, Syscom, ABB, Square D, Ditek, and Leviton to name but a few. A Cutler-Hammer protector sells in Lowes and Home Depot. A minimal 'whole house' protector will connect 50,000 amps to earth. Most important. That connection to (ie 'less than 10 feet') and quality of earth ground should have most of your attention. Not the connecting device (a protector); what absorbs that energy (earth ground).

Is your wiring defective? Then incandescent bulbs dim or brighten significantly. If incandescent bulbs remain constant, then wiring (even 1930 vintage) is sufficient for electronics. Surges are solved where wires enter the house. Not just AC electric. All incoming wires must have that low impedance connection to earth. Cable TV and telephone should already have it. Your AC mains (the most common source of incoming surges) will not unless you earth a 'whole house' protector.

Again, protection of a structure and of all electronics is how that surge gets to earth. It was always that simple. Either destructively if inside. Or harmlessly if connected to earth BEFORE entering the building. A protector is only as effective as what does protection - single point earth ground. No protector absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules (even spec numbers say that). Earth ground does. Provided are better companies that provide a solution proven by over 100 years of experience. Despite so many denials, that is the only solution implemented in every facility that cannot have electronics damage. Every foot shorter to earth means increased protection.

 

[bud--]

Excellent information on surges and surge protection is at:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE.
And also:
http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/spd-anthology/files/Surges happen!.pdf
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology

The IEEE surge guide is aimed at people with some technical background.

If a protectors thermal fuse does not disconnect fast enough, then internal protector parts might create a fire.

UL has, since 1998, required thermal disconnects for overheating MOVs (the voltage limiting elements in almost all surge protectors). Where is the massive record of fires in protectors made since 1998?

Disconnect as fast as possible? Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules will that power strip or UPS absorb? Hundreds? Thousands? Read its specification numbers.

The author of the NIST surge guide investigated how much energy might be absorbed in a MOV in a plug-in protector (US wiring systems). Branch circuits were 10M and longer, and the surge on incoming power wires was up to 10,000A ( the maximum that has any reasonable probability of occurring, as detailed below) The maximum energy at the MOV was a surprisingly small 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less.

One of the reason the energy is so small is that at about 6,000V there is arc-over from service panel busbars to the enclosure. Since the enclosure is connected to the earthing system that dumps most of the surge energy of a strong surge to earth.

Plug-in protectors with ratings far higher than 35J are readily available. High ratings mean long life. A plug-in protector with high ratings, wired correctly (as below), is very likely to protect from a very near very strong lightning strike.

Adjacent plug-in protectors do not make that low impedance connection.

Plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing a surge. As clearly explained in the IEEE surge guide (starting page 30) they work by limiting the voltage from each wire (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. The voltage between the wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment.

All interconnected equipment has to be plugged into the same protector. And all external wires must go through the protector. That is how the voltage from each wire to ground is limited.

If you depend on warranties from the manufacturer, the manufacturer will require that.

I would only buy a protector (plug-in or service panel) made by a major manufacturer.

One 'whole house' protector does to protect all appliances (including the furnace, dishwasher, and smoke detectors).

Service panel protectors are a real good idea.
But from the NIST surge guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."

Service panel protectors do not, by themselves, prevent high voltages from developing between power and phone/cable/... wires. The NIST surge guide suggests most equipment damage is from high voltage between power and signal wires. An example of where a service panel protector would provide no protection is the IEEE surge guide example starting page 30.

But service panel protectors are very likely to protect anything connected only to power wires from a very near very strong lightning strike.

Read its specification numbers. A minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. So that even 20,000 amps direct lightning strikes do not damage the protector.

The author of the NIST surge guide looked at the maximum surge current that has any reasonable probability of occurring on the service wires to a house. It is 10,000A per service wire, and is based on a 100,000A strike to a utility pole adjacent to the house in typical urban overhead distribution. Only 5% of strikes are stronger, and the strike is extremely close.

Recommended ratings for service panel protectors is in the IEEE surge guide on page 18. Ratings far higher than 10,000A per wire mean the protector will have a long life.

A effective 'whole house' protector makes that low impedance connection to earth. A power strip or UPS does not. And will not discuss earth ground.

With minimal reading skills westom could find out that plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing (IEEE surge guide starting page 30).

Cable TV has best protection; a hardwire from that cable to earth ground at the service entrance. No protector needed.

The US code just requires a ground block that allows the coax shield to be earthed.

No protector needed? The IEEE surge guide says “there is no requirement to limit the voltage developed between the core and the sheath. .... The only voltage limit is the breakdown of the F connectors, typically ~2–4 kV.” And "there is obviously the possibility of damage to TV tuners and cable modems from the very high voltages that can be developed, especially from nearby lightning."

Westom is an internet nut that googles for "surge" to post his wisdom. Some of what he says is good. Some not so good (like cable above). And some is complete nonsense. Everything he says about plug-in protectors is nonsense.

Regulars here have seen westom frequently.


For real science read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Excellent information about surge protection. And both say plug-in protectors are effective.

Then read the sources that agree with westom that plug-in protectors do NOT work. There are none.

 

[aigomorla]

Belial88 i have yet to see anyone i know who has filed a protection claim ever get their money.
Infact i just ignore those claims as it needs to be a very big finger point to the vendor for them to pay out.

If your wiring is that old, have a electrican come in for half a day and diag your wires + fix it.

Even then if u dont want to get heavy on the bills, u can have him install an outlet from the breaker and have the wires external of the wall.

At least this way u know your getting a solid and clean power source.
Dont expect any device short of a 1000 dollar UPS to regulate your power source.
Most likely you will burn it out as it continuously trys to AVR the crap out of it.

And in the end you were better off fixing the wiring on the house.

 

[Belial88]

please, a source on that.

I know this will dissapoint everyone here, but I will NOT get a dedicated nuclear fusion reactor to power 2 lightbulbs and a cheap computer for browsing reddit.

Either a surge protector is useless, or help me pick one. I'm not getting an electrician, I'm not going to redo the wiring, lay off, there are reasons why. I really do not feel I need to explain my life story here, it's a simple question. Surge protectors, which one.

or conversely, $10-40 for electrical protection, where does it go.

And if certain companies will not honor their insurance, I will not buy from them. But please, sources before you badmouth companies like that. Companies work hard to make an image for themselves, and I'm not going to take a completely non-sourced comment. I'm not asking for a peer reviewed journal here, simply link me to someone saying they got burned by the insurance, just one. It's a really bold claim to basically say an entire brand is a liar and will weasel out of what they advertise. That would be like if I went around saying you sucklollipops for money. It might be true, but I better give at least a shred of a reason why or else I'd be a huge jerk.

 

[westom]

I'm not asking for a peer reviewed journal here, simply link me to someone saying they got burned by the insurance, just one. It's a really bold claim to basically say an entire brand is a liar and will weasel out of what they advertise.

They are not lying. Read fine print in warranties that need not be honored. For example, Newsman in "SONY TiVo SVR-2000" said:

I got a Belkin surge protector with phone line protection soley for Tivo purposes.
Yet my Tivo's modem still failed. And the '$20,000 connected devices warranty' did not help me. I jumped through many hoops, including finding the original recept for the surge protector (just under a year old) and I sent my surge protector to Belkin (paid for shipping), and was denied my warranty. They gave me a ton of crap, including that it was null and void b/c the Tivo was also connected to the coax line for cable (this was not mentioned as a thing in the warranty that can nullify it). Eventually it boiled down to a line in the warranty that said "Belkin at it's sole discretion can reject any claim for any reason".

Fine print exemptions vary even with different products from the same company. One APC warranty said any protector in the building from any other manufacturer voided their warranty. Deception is easy, legal, and profitable because so many routinely avoid the fine print and ignore spec numbers.

A best warranty on cars (superior to other manufacturers) was from GM. So that proves GM products are far superior to Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai? Of course not. This is well proven in free markets. A product with a best (hyped) warranty is often the inferior product.

Meanwhile, mechanics from a nearby dealers told what happened after they corrected numerous defects on a yet unsold Cadillac. The region manager found two tires that were 2 PSI low. So all warranty claims were rejected. Even the dealers get screwed by warranties with fine print exemptions.

Easy is to identify a product that actually does what you are asking for. And requires no house rewiring. A 'whole house' protector in the breaker box or installed by the power company behind their meter means protection for everything inside. Why? Because these protectors make that always required 'low impedance' (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earthing electrodes. How to identify effective solutions? It always has a dedicated wire for a low impedance connection to earth.

Forget any magic box that will somehow stop what three miles of sky cannot. That does not have that earthing wire. And that claims a $ten thousands warranty. Understand what they are really selling. Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Sell it for $40 or $80 to consumers easily deceived by a big buck warranty. All completely legal. Since specification numbers (that are unread) say something completely different.

Did you read fine print for that warranty? Did you read spec numbers that define protection for each type of surge? Or did you just make a subjective conclusion from subjective claims on the package? We have not even discussed house fires created by these undersized protectors.

Protection means a 'whole house' protector is your effective and the least expensive solution. No way around engineering facts and numbers.

How many more stories would you like about rejected warranty claims? Instead, get a loope to read its fine print.

 

[Belial88]

Well read the fine print? Even I knew that items connected via coaxial, phone, etc, don't count or can count against it. Just don't tell them that you do that. Or better yet, don't connect anything to that because it actually makes the connection worse.

That said, I'll avoid belkin entirely for all future products.

Any company can reject an RMA for wiggle room reasons, but I've submitted an RMA through just about every computer component company, and none of them have ever gave me an issue. I believe only 2-3 actually insisted on the original receipt, most of those that asked for a receipt were okay with forum PM's (via trading forum) or ebay posts. And most just don't even ask for a receipt.

I suppose I'm not just asking for a good surge protector, but a good company to buy my surge protector from. I'm looking for a surge protector that actually does it's advertised insurance policy.

g. A 'whole house' protector in the breaker box or installed by the power company behind their meter means protection for everything inside. Why? Because these protectors make that always required 'low impedance' (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earthing electrodes. How to identify effective solutions? It always has a dedicated wire for a low impedance connection to earth.

This is extremely obnoxious, but I'll bite. Tell me, what do they cost, how do I do it. If it's anything more than $50, even $100 if you really sell me on how important they are, and can't be done yourself (with the help of general tools, power tools, and knowledge), then I don't want to hear another goddamn word on anything other than surge supressors.

I'm not asking for a magic box to protect my equipment. I'm asking for a protector that honors it's insurance, and whether to just buy 2 cheapo ones or 1 more moderate priced one for ~10-12 outlets total. Or, rather, the best thing I can buy under ~$40.

A surge suppressor IS better than not using one, right? Because right now, i'm NOT using one. So please, stick to the topic at hand.

Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Sell it for $40 or $80 to consumers easily deceived by a big buck warranty. All completely legal. Since specification numbers (that are unread) say something completely different.

I am more than willing, hell, actually more willing, to build the power strip myself if you can give me a bit of help and direction on how to do this. I build a lot of electronics, arduino stuff, etc, so it wouldn't be hard for me to do so much as there are instructions to follow.

How many more stories would you like about rejected warranty claims? Instead, get a loope to read its fine print.

Enough to get a truly accurate depiction of how warranty claims are handled. I can understand if a company or two is a-holes, say belkin, and so you hear a lot about surge suppressor insurance being denied, but I really am finding very few results with my google-fu. I'm finding like 2 results, both positive, one of Tripplite, one of APC.

I have a strong feeling, that a lot of the claims of rejected warranty horror stories, are being made up or complete conjecture based on an irrational fear that warranties are never accepted. I, have the exact opposite feeling, as, like I said, I've filed warranties through almost every single computer component company through my professional and personal dealings with building computers, and I've *never* had a company that didn't honor a warranty, and the vast majority of my warranties have been filed with no receipt, clearly and admittedly bought second hand or off ebay used, etc ad naueseum.

And it's not just computer companies that are so awesome and great, I've filed a ton of warranties through construction materials type companies, as well as through retailers like lowes and wal-mart. Oh, and rebates, for both PC and home improvement. Always honored. Never had a problem. At worst, took more than a month. That's it, and only twice, out of about 100 RMAs and rebates.

So yes, I'd really like links to these supposed horror stories, because frankly I'm not buying it.

 

[westom]

A surge suppressor IS better than not using one, right? Because right now, i'm NOT using one. So please, stick to the topic at hand.

Depends on whether you have a surge protector or a completely different device called a surge protector. For example, Dr Martzloff notes how a surge protector (the one adjacent to appliances) can even make appliance damage easier. A conclusion from his IEEE paper is layman simple about 'point of connection' protectors:

Conclusion:
1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances.

Another and completely different device called a surge protector is how protection has been done for over 100 years. These 'whole house' protectors come from companies with integrity including Leviton, Polyphaser, ABB, General Electric, Square D, Ditek, Intermatic, Syscom, and Siemens. A Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Home Depot and Lowes because it can be installed by any informed homeowner. One 'whole house' protector is also available in any electrical supply house. Typically cost about $1 per protected appliance. And always has the one characteristic that defined effective protection - a dedicated wire for that all so important short connection to earth.

Nothing is obnoxious about a science that has been well understood for over 100 years. But plug-in protectors are so profitable that even Monster sells them. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product for even higher profits. Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Monster was selling their more expensive looking protectors for $120. Many knew it must be better because it costs more. An electrically equivalent product sells in WalMart for about $10 - also with a respectable profit margin.

Nobody sells a protector as if insurance. Better and less expensive insurance is sold by insurance brokers. Protectors either do (or do not do) protection. Buy insurance from a state licensed broker who must honor your policy. Buy a protector to be one component of a surge protection 'system'.

Schneider Electric bought APC. Then discovered a serous fire hazard exists with these products. Schneider Electric Recalls APC Surge Protectors Due to Fire Hazard. These are the worst of the worst. But many products from APC, Belkin, Tripplite, Monster, et al also have dangers. Read specification numbers. A destructive surge is hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules will that Belkin, APC, or Panamax absorb? Hundreds? Thousands? Read numbers that matter - not an insurance gimmick.

These protectors contain a thermal fuse to disconnect protector parts as fast as possible during a massive surge. While leaving that surge connected to appliances. Sometimes that thermal fuse does not disconnect fast enough. A potential fire.

A surge too tiny to overwhelm protection inside electronics can sometimes trip that thermal fuse. Then a naive consumer assumes, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer." Complete nonsense. That surge was not large enough to harm appliances. And blew a protector's thermal fuse (as indicated by its "Protector Good" light). Fuse blew in an undersized protector to protect you from a potential fire. Specification numbers say why. What does a protector rated at hundreds of joules do during a potentially destructive surge (hundreds of thousands of joules)? A thermal fuse (typically one amp) disconnects protector parts to avert a fire.

A minimally sized 'whole house' protector has a completely different number: 50,000 amps. So it will even earth direct lightning strikes without failing or creating a fire. Just another reason why devices with a same name are completely different.

What would protect that power strip? One 'whole house' protector. Either get protection from a 'surge protector' with numbers that claim protection (ie 50,000 amps). Or get insurance from a 'surge protector' that does not even claim effective protection (only hundreds of joules). Two completely different devices with a common name.

Plug-in protectors were attached to numerous computers on a network. We replaced semiconductors to restore surge damaged computers and to confirm the surge's path. Incoming on AC mains. Connected from AC mains black (hot) wire to the computer's motherboard by adjacent protectors (protector bypassed superior protection inside each PSU). Out the motherboard via an NIC. Into a third computer via its NIC. Out to earth ground via that computer's modem and telephone line.

Telcos earth 'whole house' protector on your phone line for free. That third computer was a surge's outgoing connection to earth via phone lines. Plug-in protectors simply bypassed PSU protection to connect a surge destructively to earth via networked computers. We replaced all semiconductors to make NICs and the modem operational for years. Damage made easier due to adjacent protectors and no earthed 'whole house' protector.

Either earth a surge BEFORE it can enter the building. Otherwise a surge will hunt for earth ground destructively via electronics. No way around concepts understood even 100 years ago. Insurance is sold by brokers who must honor your policy. Protection is provided by 'whole house' protectors with the always essential low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth.

 

[imagoon]

Man wall of hearsay and no facts. The one fact is that one company had to recall 2 series of surge suppressors of the several hundred they offer and the thousands available on the market. Not very convincing at all. Better yet is is more than 15 years ago and only a certain series (based on serial number.) To me that says more "supply chain problems [ie bad mov or whatever]" than entire technology is defective.

--edit--
Bit more research:
700 over heated units (of 15million sold)
55 fires (of 15 millions sold)
--edit2--
Seems like every forum I find discussing this issue has a Westom with some low post count that is basically a cut and paste post of all the stuff we have seen here.

 

[bryanl]

Get a mid-priced surge protector from Tripplite or APC that includes a line filter. Presence of a line filter typically indicates the rest of the protector is built better, and it can prevent computer errors when your mother operates her arc welder.

 

[westom]

Get a mid-priced surge protector from Tripplite or APC that includes a line filter. Presence of a line filter typically indicates the rest of the protector is built better,

Apparently you did not design surge protectors. And did not learn from MOV manufacturer application notes.

Provide specification numbers for that filter. It is typically inferior to the first filter found in properly designed power supplies. Superior filtering is part of better protection already inside properly designed electronics. Even the power supply, with many filters, has a better in its first filter.

So what does that filter do? The protector is undersized. A technique for keeping a protector from creating a fire is to filter incoming power to MOVs. It is an old design technique even discussed in MOV manufacturer application notes. Then a sharp transient (a surge) is blunted; is less likely to turn the MOV into a flaming candle.

Among protectors listed in the APC recall is at least one that has filters. Even with multiple inductors, the APC PRO8T2 is still on the CPSC list of protectors that must be removed immediately due to that human safety threat (fire).

No protector stops or blocks(filters) a surge. A relevant EE concept (taught to first semester engineers) is current source. That means anything that might stop or block a surge (ie a filter) causes voltage to increase so that current can blow through that filter. A near zero filter in protectors does virtually nothing to protect appliances. Meanwhile superior filters are already inside properly designed electronics as even required by numerous codes and standards.

That protector filter is in combination with a thermal fuse to avert a house fire. And still those APC protectors were creating fires. Because the APC (like Tripplite, Monster, Panamax, etc) is more about profits; less about protection. Even its spec numbers say near zero protection.