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Supreme Court Upholds School Vouchers

Miramonti

Miramonti

Lifer
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This is very troublesome. Parochial schools are now going to raise their tuitions by the amount of the vouchers and then only the rich kids are still going to get in and the public schools are going to go to crap, atleast the ones that haven't. This only weakens the public school system while it makes the parochial schools rich, allowing them to steal ALL the great teachers, and give the rich kids a university education. :disgust:
 
tuitions aren't going to be raised... at least not immediately, and the vouchers are there to give EVERYONE a possible chance at private school. Not just the rich.

if the schools abuse the vouchers i'm sure they will be taken away
 
my feelings are mixed on this. but it just amazes me how *one* vote from the supreme court (5-4 decisions) can be so influential on the shaping of this country. its mind-boggling.
 
Originally posted by: jjsole
allowing them to steal ALL the great teachers
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You've never been to a private school, have you? I attended private christian schools for a couple years, w/ the rest of my schooling in public schools. Christian schools hire christian teachers. ALL the great teachers aren't christian. ALL the great biology teachers are NOT going to work for a christian school that won't let them teach evolution. Same w/ other teachers and other subjects. The GREAT teachers teach because they want children to learn, not because they can make more money at school X than school Y. If they'll take a pay raise in exchange for teaching something they don't actually beleive, they're probably NOT great teachers. Could you imagine your best teachers leading prayer? If not, don't expect to see them at a christian school.

I had most of my best teachers at public schools. I also had my WORST teachers at public schools. The teachers at private schools were generally fairly average.

I will say that the private high school I attended was better run than the public school.
 
At least this will offer alternatives to parent. I prefer the private school rather than public school and this vouchers will definitely help on that.
 
Even though I never attended private schools, I'd like to second part of what notfred said. I'm sure this varies from place-to-place, but my wife's a teacher and naturally has a lot of friends who are teachers from various places across the country. In almost every case, private schools usually pay their teachers substantially less than the salary for the equivalent job in a public school (which is already low enough.) I'm sure there are exceptions in the ultra-snooty institutions, but that will always be the case.
 
I prefer a private school for my children as well, but I doubt I would ever qualify for the tuition assistance yet I can't afford to pay it myself.
 
The one really good benefit here is that this should bring competition into the education market. I think that religious institutions will rue the day they started taking federal dollars, but this should bring about an overall improvement in the education system. Government schools will have to compete against private schools to keep students.

Currently, Public education reminds me of the 1970's auto industry. Hopefully we will see similar results from increased competition.
 
Originally posted by: notfred
Originally posted by: jjsole allowing them to steal ALL the great teachers
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You've never been to a private school, have you? I attended private christian schools for a couple years, w/ the rest of my schooling in public schools. Christian schools hire christian teachers. ALL the great teachers aren't christian. ALL the great biology teachers are NOT going to work for a christian school that won't let them teach evolution. Same w/ other teachers and other subjects. The GREAT teachers teach because they want children to learn, not because they can make more money at school X than school Y. If they'll take a pay raise in exchange for teaching something they don't actually beleive, they're probably NOT great teachers. Could you imagine your best teachers leading prayer? If not, don't expect to see them at a christian school. I had most of my best teachers at public schools. I also had my WORST teachers at public schools. The teachers at private schools were generally fairly average. I will say that the private high school I attended was better run than the public school.
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Yes, thats a good point. However my point is a reasonable generalization because its a market economy. Perhaps from the christian point of view as well, ALL of the good christian teachers would be at a parochial school now. There will still be good teachers at public schools but the quality of teachers at private schools will no doubt increase.

These schools won't raise their tuitions immediately, but its an easy prediction - over demand, and limited supply. And the schools that have had parents donate extra $$ will be the ones getting in, and this is a way to filter out these people. Also, when they realize that they can raise the tuition and still have plenty of kids, they might decide to add a new arts or gymnastics program/building etc to "improve" their education. There's nothing in this market economy that suggests that these schools will keep their tuitions low out of "integrity", and to help "poor" kids get a better education.
 
Thursday?s ruling on vouchers continued a trend of the court in recent years to ease the path toward state support of religion.

Hmm. This does show a bit of the reporters bias. Giving parents a choice that includes a religious institution as well as secular institutions is a far cry from state support of religion.
 
ok now im confused. they say the pledge is wrong because "under god" and yet they will help pay to go to a religious school?

sigh wrong.
 
and the vouchers are there to give EVERYONE a possible chance at private school
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Choice is always better but I hope non-public schools aren't flooded with refugees which would reduce their ability to educate.
The one really good benefit here is that this should bring competition into the education market.
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Yes, and that's very much needed. It'll give public schooling a much needed reality check.
A quick question, does teacher in private school also part of the teacher union ?
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Nope, the evil teachers unions have no pull at all with non-public schools which is why they fear them like Black Death. No more power, no more control, no more experimenting on the young, no more using education as a political tool to empower themselves. It's a thing of beauty. 🙂
 
So whats the differance in paying for high school or college, there are alot of universities, Notre Dame, BYU, SMU that all have a religous base to them, can you not get aid to go to them.

Private schools should have to meet certain basic requirements to recieve the vouchers, but other than that I really don't have a problem with it.
 
This is very troublesome. Parochial schools are now going to raise their tuitions by the amount of the vouchers and then only the rich kids are still going to get in and the public schools are going to go to crap, atleast the ones that haven't. This only weakens the public school system while it makes the parochial schools rich, allowing them to steal ALL the great teachers, and give the rich kids a university education.
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These voucher programs are limited STRICTLY to students residing in failing school districts with seemingly insurmountable problems including high drop-out rates, disturbingly low test scores, whose communities are replete economic, cultural, and social problems that will require decades to reverse, if at all.

Do you know many 'rich' people who send their students to schools like this? Do you know of any 'rich' people whose children are NOT already receiving the best private education money can buy? Do you know of any rich people who are all that worried about reducing their child's $15,000 annual private school tuition by $4000?

I know some rich people, and they aren't all that concerned about some stupid voucher their children do not even qualify for. If you can find a single child benefitting from Cleveland's voucher program whose parents could remotely be categorized as 'rich', you should consider changing your name to Harry Houdini.

Further, this does not take a penny away from public schools. The student will no longer be attending the public school, and so the school no longer has the expense of educating that child. Its a break-even proposal for the public schools, they lose no money in proportion to the number of students they have to educate.
ok now im confused. they say the pledge is wrong because "under god" and yet they will help pay to go to a religious school?
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Yeah, you're confused. Two different rulings, two different courts. One is a federal circuit court of appeals, the other is the United States Supreme Court.
 
Originally posted by: tcsenter
This is very troublesome. Parochial schools are now going to raise their tuitions by the amount of the vouchers and then only the rich kids are still going to get in and the public schools are going to go to crap, atleast the ones that haven't. This only weakens the public school system while it makes the parochial schools rich, allowing them to steal ALL the great teachers, and give the rich kids a university education.
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These voucher programs are limited STRICTLY to students residing in failing school districts with seemingly insurmountable problems including high drop-out rates, disturbingly low test scores, whose communities are replete economic, cultural, and social problems that will require decades to reverse, if at all. Do you know many 'rich' people who send their students to schools like this? Do you know of any 'rich' people whose children are NOT already receiving the best private education money can buy? Do you know of any rich people who are all that worried about reducing their child's $15,000 annual private school tuition by $4000? I know some rich people, and they aren't all that concerned about some stupid voucher their children do not even qualify for. If you can find a single child benefitting from Cleveland's voucher program whose parents could remotely be categorized as 'rich', you should consider changing your name to Harry Houdini. Further, this does not take a penny away from public schools. The student will no longer be attending the public school, and so the school no longer has the expense of educating that child. Its a break-even proposal for the public schools, they lose no money in proportion to the number of students they have to educate.
ok now im confused. they say the pledge is wrong because "under god" and yet they will help pay to go to a religious school?
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Yeah, you're confused. Two different rulings, two different courts. One is a federal circuit court of appeals, the other is the United States Supreme Court.
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The poor kids will never displace the rich kids in the seats available at private schools - thats my point. If a family is currently paying $5k to send their kid to a school, and another kid from the public school system gets a voucher for $4k and his family can now afford the 5k to send him to that school, who's going to get in? The black kid from run down projects or the rich kid who's parents not only can afford the tuition but donate beyond that and have already sent 2 kids to that school? In the cities, you have both classes right across the street from each other, as neighborhoods change quickly at certain streets etc. You're saying the vouchers are only available for those who qualify - thats not necessarily the program that I've heard people pushing for - everyone is eligible including the rich kids.

There are only a certain number of students that can be taken in at any given school. Its not like there are hundreds or thousands of open spaces for anyone that can pay. With the rich kids getting a voucher then the schools only have to raise their tuitions to make it out of reach for the poor kids, and the parents of the rich kids aren't paying anymore for the education, since their voucher will cover the difference.
 
This is good news for everyone.

The ruling was broad enough to allow voucher for all, not just the poor or those stuck in failing schools.

So if you dont want your kids to say the pledge, piss in a cup, or be subject to some other assinine school rule, parents can take that voucher and put their kid in a school they approve of.


tcsenter,

The rich you speak of is probably less than 5% of the population. By the time folks pay their taxes to support public schools, they no longer have the money left to put their kids in better schools. These vouchers are nothing more than a refund of tax dollars that should not have been collected in the first place that pay for public schools.
 
The poor kids will never displace the rich kids in the seats available at private schools - thats my point.
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What made you think that was the goal? To displace rich kids? The goal is to give the parents a choice besides sending their children to a failed school system in a failed community that will take decades to reform, not to displace rich kids. I know that many leftists subscribe to bankrupt zero-sum views and spend an inordinate amount of their lives devising ways to 'stick it' to the wealthy, but try to break out of that 18th century thinking. I know you can do it.
if a family is currently paying $5k to send their kid to a school, and another kid from the public school system gets a voucher for $4k and his family can now afford the 5k to send him to that school, who's going to get in? The black kid from run down projects or the rich kid who's parents not only can afford the tuition but donate beyond that and have already sent 2 kids to that school?
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The schools who agree to participate in the voucher program agree to certain stipulations, and one of those stipulations is that income of the parents will NOT play a role. Also it isn't as though they're using shoe horns to cram one additional desk into these private schools. There's room. No qualifying child has been turned away in the Cleveland school system.
In the cities, you have both classes right across the street from each other, as neighborhoods change quickly at certain streets etc. You're saying the vouchers are only available for those who qualify - thats not necessarily the program that I've heard people pushing for - everyone is eligible including the rich kids.
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A ballot initiative in Michigan would have mandated restrictions on who can participate in the voucher program. Only parents whose children attended what would according to specific criteria be classified as 'failing' school districts, and who demonstrated economic hardship preventing them from affording any other option, could claim a "need". The Michigan proposal was largely modeled after the Cleveland program. I have never heard of a program where vouchers are given willy-nilly to any and all who ask for them.
 
I know that many leftists subscribe to bankrupt zero-sum views and spend an inordinate amount of their lives devising ways to 'stick it' to the wealthy, but try to break out of that 18th century thinking. I know you can do it.
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What an obnoxious fvck we are.
 
my feelings are mixed on this. but it just amazes me how *one* vote from the supreme court (5-4 decisions) can be so influential on the shaping of this country. its mind-boggling.
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Which would you rather have, a nine-person bloc making the decision about whether to experiment with programs like this, or the expressed view of the entire people of a state at the ballot box?

Now the people of Ohio can make the choice of whether to continue the program, or scrap it. I'm pretty sure that's a better way of deciding the matter than having the USSC decide for them.
 
Originally posted by: PastorDon
Thursday?s ruling on vouchers continued a trend of the court in recent years to ease the path toward state support of religion.

Hmm. This does show a bit of the reporters bias. Giving parents a choice that includes a religious institution as well as secular institutions is a far cry from state support of religion.
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considering that >95% of the vouchers in cleveland were used for religious schools, I dont think its that far off.

 
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