Supreme Court: Opening prayers at council meetings ok

[fskimospy]

Please, atheists have long wanted to keep religion completely out of the public as if religious people are second-class citizens.

Tradition is the same argument homophobes use to protect the "sanctity of marriage". If that tradition can be changed, then so can your "secular" tradition.

Seriously, nobody cares if you are religious in public. We just want you to stop using our tax dollars and our government/public resources to promote your religion. Is that really too much to ask?

 

[Texashiker]

"All hail the dark lord Satan and let his eternal torment come upon those who do not recognize his hellish glory"

 

[fskimospy]

We talked about this in the pledge thread. If you're forcing a change, you are imposing your views because something's changing.

If religious people are trying to pass a bill and atheists are fighting it, then you can say their trying to stop others from imposing.

But if certain laws and provisions are already in place, then your are imposing a change based on your either personal or legal views.

This is a pretty big distortion of the meaning of words. That would mean that if we were in a situation where we had compulsory Christian church attendance for all residents and I sued to stop it, we're both guilty of trying to impose our beliefs on the other. That's not how it works.

As a clearer example, if you're punching me in the face and I tell you to stop, I'm not imposing my beliefs on you. I'm getting you to stop doing bad things to me.

 

[thraashman]

We talked about this in the pledge thread. If you're forcing a change, you are imposing your views because something's changing.

If religious people are trying to pass a bill and atheists are fighting it, then you can say their trying to stop others from imposing.

But if certain laws and provisions are already in place, then your are imposing a change based on your either personal or legal views.

Forcing a change when the existing it wrong, illegal, and unconstitutional is not a bad thing. Ending racial discrimination was forcing the view that non-whites are equal to white people. And preventing others from forcing their views is not an atheist forcing their own. No atheists are trying to change to the pledge to read "one nation, without a god because it doesn't exist, indivisible".

But I guess by your own argument you agree that the change to ADD "under God" into the pledge in the 50's was imposing the views of Christianity and it should be changed.

 

[Retro Rob]

As a clearer example, if you're punching me in the face and I tell you to stop, I'm not imposing my beliefs on you. I'm getting you to stop doing bad things to me.

What "bad thing" is being done to you, though? Are you being forced to pray to Yahweh at these meetings?

 

[hal2kilo]

Another 5-4-er that will be reversed when the majority flips.

And to think some people think it doesn't matter who you want in charge of your government. Think SCOTUS picks.

 

[Retro Rob]

Forcing a change when the existing it wrong, illegal, and unconstitutional is not a bad thing.

Didn't say it was.

But I guess by your own argument you agree that the change to ADD "under God" into the pledge in the 50's was imposing the views of Christianity and it should be changed.

Oh, I agree with that. But don't act as if removing it isn't imposing change.

 

[fskimospy]

What "bad thing" is being done to you, though? Are you being forced to pray to Yahweh at these meetings?

Well nothing to me in particular, but to the people of the town who sued.

Individuals are appropriating government resources that their tax dollars paid for to promote their religion. Additionally, in order to participate in local government one is required to sit through someone else's religious invocations.

Sitting through that shouldn't be a requirement for participation in government, and taxpayer purchased resources shouldn't be used for the promotion of that religion or any other, atheism included.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Can we keep town meeting on topic you know about the town meeting?

 

[Retro Rob]

Well nothing to me in particular, but to the people of the town who sued.

Well, you tried to equivocate your scenario, which is why I asked.

Individuals are appropriating government resources that their tax dollars paid for to promote their religion. Additionally, in order to participate in local government one is required to sit through someone else's religious invocations.

Wait, I didn't read that non-believers are forced to sit through anything, which would be forcing religious views. If I am wrong, I need to re-read the article.

Sitting through that shouldn't be a requirement for participation in government, and taxpayer purchased resources shouldn't be used for the promotion of that religion or any other, atheism included.

Is it a requirement? Honestly, I may have missed that.

 

[alzan]

Obviously, praying in public gives one that "holier than thou" double-plus good attitude.

I guess what theists who pray before government meetings are saying is that they lack the reasoning skills to tackle the issues which come before them; either that or they are unwilling/incapable of praying before they go to the meeting.

For those who are unaware (or close their minds) there is an admonition in the Bible against praying in public.

 

[Jaskalas]

Seriously, nobody cares if you are religious in public. We just want you to stop using our tax dollars and our government/public resources to promote your religion. Is that really too much to ask?

We do not want government conduct to be religious.

 

[nehalem256]

I would love to see a few atheists get onto the council and open a council meeting with "Let us all bow our heads. Today we recognize that there is no god and believing in one is a silly, silly thing."

So we are clear you are now claiming that Atheism is a religion?

or better yet, Satanists, "All hail the dark lord Satan and let his eternal torment come upon those who do not recognize his hellish glory"

If liberals want to come out and admit they are servants of Satan I am all for it. :thumbsup:

 

[realibrad]

Time = Money. Talking takes up time. If you are talking about your "God" you are spending public Time/Money.

No matter how arbitrary you find that small prayer, its still public time. The tax dollars and time went into building that "public" place, and now that place is being used for religion. Who decides what resources are taken from the public and how will be given to religion?

I disagree with the notion that you should be able to take from the public, to use for religion.

 

[IronWing]

This is great. Can we now expect all official correspondence to sound like Nigerian scam emails?

Dearest Brother in Christ,
I am writing you today in the matter of a certain unpaid water bill. God has provided us with abundant clean water with which to baptise and refresh ourselves. However, we have not yey received your payment for the blessings of March, 2014. Please remit $87.14 to the address below care of our Sister in Accounts Receivable, post marked no later than May 10, 2014.
God Bless.

 

[fskimospy]

Well, you tried to equivocate your scenario, which is why I asked.

Wait, I didn't read that non-believers are forced to sit through anything, which would be forcing religious views. If I am wrong, I need to re-read the article.

Is it a requirement? Honestly, I may have missed that.

Every council meeting is opened with a prayer. I mean I guess you could leave and then come back in, but that's not really an acceptable requirement.

 

[tommo123]

What about atheists who don't want to be subjected to that? How do they partake in this exciting opportunity to use local government as a pulpit for their personal and private views?

they can start "praying" (loudly yelling about) to science.

this should be fun, a christian starts jabbering on about jesus and annoys a muslim who starts praying to allah which is then followed by a pastafarian giving thanks for his spaghetti and meatballs. :thumbsup:

 

[thraashman]

So we are clear you are now claiming that Atheism is a religion?



If liberals want to come out and admit they are servants of Satan I am all for it. :thumbsup:

Every time I think you can't get any dumber you come up with posts like this where I'd have to smash my head with a claw hammer to be able to dumb myself down enough to discuss with you.

 

[JD50]

Wait, I didn't read that non-believers are forced to sit through anything, which would be forcing religious views. If I am wrong, I need to re-read the article.



Is it a requirement? Honestly, I may have missed that.

It was quoted in the OP...

If you want to pray, do it before the meeting starts on your own time. Problem solved.

 

[Retro Rob]

For those who are unaware (or close their minds) there is an admonition in the Bible against praying in public.

That admonition is to the motives of the praying person (looking to get glory from men), and not making public prayers generally.

 

[nehalem256]

Every time I think you can't get any dumber you come up with posts like this where I'd have to smash my head with a claw hammer to be able to dumb myself down enough to discuss with you.

What is dumb about what I said?

You said you want people, presumably liberals, to open up a city council meeting with a prayer to the dark lord Satan. How can that be interpreted as anything other than an admission that liberals serve Satan?

 

[IronWing]

That admonition is to the motives of the praying person (looking to get glory from men).

Why else would you open a meeting with a prayer other than to demonstrate piety or to evangelize? There is certainly no governmental purpose for an opening prayer. Maybe we could sell commercial ad space at the beginning of public meetings.

 

[Retro Rob]

Every council meeting is opened with a prayer. I mean I guess you could leave and then come back in, but that's not really an acceptable requirement.

In my personal opinion, its only unacceptable when you want things to change to cater to your views.

I have no issue with leaving, and by way of example (even though this isn't the same thing), when preachers start yelling and praying at funerals I've attended, I either dismiss myself or simply wait until the opening prayer ends before arriving.

If everyone else wants to hear it, fine...but I don't think I have the right to tell everyone else they can't enjoy the sermon because I am personally offended by it.

 

[alzan]

That admonition is to the motives of the praying person (looking to get glory from men), and not making public prayers generally.

So what is the motive of a government official praying at an official meeting before other members and attending citizens?

 

[Retro Rob]

Why else would you open a meeting with a prayer other than to demonstrate piety or to evangelize?

I don't know. Some people just prefer to talk verbally instead of silently -- I am in no position to judge their motives.