Supreme Court: Opening prayers at council meetings ok

[emperus]

I'm a Christian and I think it's a bad decision.

 

[nehalem256]

Why else would you open a meeting with a prayer other than to demonstrate piety or to evangelize? There is certainly no governmental purpose for an opening prayer. Maybe we could sell commercial ad space at the beginning of public meetings.

To call upon God to help guide those present at the meeting into making good decisions

 

[boomerang]

If you want to pray, do it before the meeting starts on your own time. Problem solved.

You just hit on the answer - I think. I think because the SCOTUS already gave us the answer but...forget that for now.

Bang the gavel to silence the room, say a prayer and then officially open the meeting. No religious intervention in the meeting whatsoever. It ain't official until the officials declare it official.

Oh, and if the prayer before the meeting starts out with a scream of "Allahu Akbar" duck for cover, because there ain't going to be no meeting, instead there's going to be workplace violence.

 

[LightPattern]

I would love to see a few atheists get onto the council and open a council meeting with "Let us all bow our heads. Today we recognize that there is no god and believing in one is a silly, silly thing." or better yet, Satanists, "All hail the dark lord Satan and let his eternal torment come upon those who do not recognize his hellish glory"

I get the feeling some people would quickly be ok with abolishing these prayers.

As others have repeatedly pointed out all over this board.. free speech means you can say what you want, but understand that others will react to what they hear.

If someone in their council used the opportunity to disparage the beliefs of others, they can expect to be chastised for it.
If a Satan worshiper ran openly for a government position, then talked openly about their beliefs, perhaps people there would accept it.

 

[IronWing]

To call upon God to help guide those present at the meeting into making good decisions

Which is grandstanding for the purpose of evangelizing to unbelievers or demonstrating piety to other believers. From a theological perspective, calling upon a diety for guidance on an ad hoc basis is problematic.

 

[LightPattern]

Maybe they ask to open with their prayer and just talk about something they like. Or say nothing.

If you get offended by hearing a prayer, then you're a fucking moron. Especially when all religions have equal opportunity.

Just because you are offended, it doesn't mean you are right.

Hallelujah!

 

[LightPattern]

This is similar to the argument I've heard in many other threads. Trying to stop others from imposing their views on you does not equal imposing your views on them.

There are many ways you can keep others from imposing their views on you without forcing them to be mute on subjects important to them.

Advocating that our judicial system should regulate the content of religious speech or ban it all together is certainly imposing your views on others.

 

[Brainonska511]

Advocating that our judicial system should regulate the content of religious speech or ban it all together is certainly imposing your views on others.

I wasn't aware that anyone was advocating for the banning or regulation of religious speech. People are simply arguing that the local government meeting is neither the time nor the place for religious speech.

 

[nehalem256]

I wasn't aware that anyone was advocating for the banning or regulation of religious speech. People are simply arguing that the local government meeting is neither the time nor the place for religious speech.

So you only want to ban speech you dislike at government meetings...

Well that totally changes things.D:

 

[Thebobo]

Its not a tradition lol, this opens the door to a lot more of this.

...pretty soon we'll be seeing these?

 

[Retro Rob]

So you only want to ban speech you dislike at government meetings...

Well that totally changes things.D:

Really, it sounds just like what Donald Sterling was saying: You can hang around black people, just not at my games. You can have religious speech, but not in our buildings.

 

[fskimospy]

There are many ways you can keep others from imposing their views on you without forcing them to be mute on subjects important to them.

Advocating that our judicial system should regulate the content of religious speech or ban it all together is certainly imposing your views on others.

This is a straw man. No one is arguing to ban religious speech, they are simply arguing that government resources should not be used to promote someone's religion.

 

[fskimospy]

Really, it sounds just like what Donald Sterling was saying: You can hang around black people, just not at my games. You can have religious speech, but not in our buildings.

Are you seriously attempting to equate the establishment clause of the Constitution to racism?

 

[thraashman]

Are you seriously attempting to equate the establishment clause of the Constitution to racism?

There are people for whom the ability to force their religion on others is of greater importance than the Constitution. Just like there's people for whom their race is superior to others. People like nehalem are both those things.

 

[TheSiege]

There are people for whom the ability to force their religion on others is of greater importance than the Constitution. Just like there's people for whom their race is superior to others. People like nehalem are both those things.

How is this really any different than students choosing to say prayer in school? Its legal as long as its not forced by school staff and any religion can say any prayer

 

[WHAMPOM]

I am a purist and find public prayers an abomination. Try reading your Bible. It is the sign of the righteous hypocrite. "under God" and "in God we trust" were adopted by knee jerk reactionists afraid Democracy could not prevail against the rising threat of Communism.

 

[Retro Rob]

Are you seriously attempting to equate the establishment clause of the Constitution to racism?

No, I'm saying hearing religious speech is really just as harmless as being with a dark-skinned person.

To be honest, I think atheists are hiding a form religious intolerance inside of legal language. They normally dress it up under "it unconstitutional". I don't buy that anymore because religious bigots have hidden behind the Bible to justify hating gays -- one can easily hide bigotry and intolerance behind a document because that document hasn't been changed.

I think atheist do the same thing because their arguments always are framed under what they interpret as unconstitutional. To me, I think it serves as a secular version of the Bible for them.

 

[thraashman]

How is this really any different than students choosing to say prayer in school? Its legal as long as its not forced by school staff and any religion can say any prayer

It would be no different if it wasn't an official thing that leads off each meeting. This would be more equivalent to having every morning at school start off with the administration call for a prayer, which has been clearly deemed unconstitutional.

 

[boomerang]

There are people for whom the ability to force their religion on others is of greater importance than the Constitution. Just like there's people for whom their race is superior to others. People like nehalem are both those things.

The gospel according to thraashman Preach it brother!

 

[alzan]

No, I'm saying hearing religious speech is really just as harmless as being with a dark-skinned person.

To be honest, I think atheists are hiding a form religious intolerance inside of legal language. They normally dress it up under "it unconstitutional". I don't buy that anymore because religious bigots have hidden behind the Bible to justify hating gays -- one can easily hide bigotry and intolerance behind a document because that document hasn't been changed.

I think atheist do the same thing because their arguments always are framed under what they interpret as unconstitutional. To me, I think it serves as a secular version of the Bible for them.

Secularism is not a religion, nor is it spirituality.

 

[Retro Rob]

Secularism is not a religion, nor is it spirituality.

Doesn't matter. My point is that it gives bigots an "out" without having to simply acknowledge that they hate religion.

I would like to ask you, if public prayer in Government buildings was Constitutional, would you have an issue with it?

 

[nehalem256]

Secularism is not a religion, nor is it spirituality.

Some people certainly seem to think it is a religion.

I would love to see a few atheists get onto the council and open a council meeting with "Let us all bow our heads. Today we recognize that there is no god and believing in one is a silly, silly thing."

Why else would they suggest prayers of secularism to lead off council meetings?

 

[WHAMPOM]

So you only want to ban speech you dislike at government meetings...

Well that totally changes things.D:

You must mean ban religious prayers at government meetings? Otherwise just a neha troll response missing the point entirely?

 

[Thebobo]

How is this really any different than students choosing to say prayer in school? Its legal as long as its not forced by school staff and any religion can say any prayer

Because this was done as a group you are forced to be there.

 

[realibrad]

Doesn't matter. My point is that it gives bigots an "out" without having to simply acknowledge that they hate religion.

I would like to ask you, if public prayer in Government buildings was Constitutional, would you have an issue with it?

So as a christian, are you a bigot to all other religions? I'm confused as to how an atheist is a bigot because it might not want it's government spending time/money on religion.

If you see prayer as expression, then you have taken my resources (tax) to use for your expression. What right do you have to take my resources that I could have used for myself and or my own expression, so another can express themselves? If I had chosen to give up my resources that is one thing, but a tax is not choice, its obligation that you don't choose.