Supreme Court Drop-Kicks McCain/Feingold, Scores Victory for 1st Amendment;

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Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
No, its' not fine.

If the board as citizens believes in the Republican Party, they can donate their personal funds.

That's a role for citizens, not corporations. We don't allow non-American to donate, because twe recognize their agenda is for their own good and their nation's good, not America's.

Corporate agendas are for the corporaiton's good, not America's - that's not only allowed, it'srequired by law. The most powerful corporations are mlti-national as well.

Citizens have an artifical power called the vote, and they have free speech to discuss issues. Corporations don't use free speech to decide issues. They aren't listening for your points on the good of society.

Their agenda is fixed, their own profit no matter what the harm to society. Their use of speech is not free, it's dictated by that and it's one way: the most powerful propgaganda they can buy, using their deep business, not citizen, pockets that are far bigger than citizens', to buy media to force their message to defeat the citizens' decision whenever it conflicts. Typically that means paying for attack ads against the people supporting the public wishes (or at least another corporate faction) and not theirs.

The money that is for business, with a business agenda for corporate profit, has no business being allowed to act like it's a citzen and try to defeat citizens' positions.

That is the people of the United States enslaving themselves to corporate masters and their owners. throwing away the political power from the vote given to them by the constitution.

They go from the citizens who take sodas out of schools for health reasons to consumers whose only choice is coke or pepsi.



You're making up some 'legitimate' corporate speech. It doesn't exist. At best, corporations happen to agree with the people on an issue - and further back it, but that does no good since it's already the opinion.

THe corporation isn't a citizen with any concern for the nation or the people's well being. It does't have any right to the vote given to the people - or to use its great business wealth to buy those votes.




THe richest people in the world have their money dwarfed by their corporations. But that isn't the point. The point is that the corproations are a corrupting voice who has no right to overturn the citizens.



You shouldn't be. Our Democracy was already losing the war with corporations before this. These are going to be the golden ages before every politician who stood up to corporations was targetted and taken out.

Well in theory corporate board members should vote in the best interests of their share holders. If they were doing that, and in doing so they donated money to a political party, I have no problem with that.

On the other hand, if they use their control of corporate assets to financially support a political candidate they personally like, with no expectation that supporting that person will help the company they control, they should at the very LEAST be removed from their position. In fact, if I was in charge, those kind of people would be thrown into prison for misusing share holder assets.

The problem isn't that corporations can donate to candidates, the problem is that corporate executives can treat company assets like their personal piggy bank when it suits them. But I think the solution is tighter restrictions (or oversight) on executive authority, not limiting campaign donations.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I'm going to laugh at righties who support this decision when Saudi Amaco is electing our presidents and all that goes with that... You can see by my avatar I'm prepared.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,549
9,782
136
I'm going to laugh at righties who support this decision when Saudi Amaco is electing our presidents and all that goes with that... You can see by my avatar I'm prepared.

So what exactly is different now that could not be done before 2003?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
So what exactly is different now that could not be done before 2003?
Bingo. There is nothing different today than in the many years before McCain-Feingold, and little different than in the years under McCain-Feingold. Entities that want to be identified with their contributions make sure they are; entities that do not with to be identified with their contributions formed separation lobbyist organizations then (sometimes only to draw in other contributions, maximizing their influence) and will continue to do so now.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
So what exactly is different now that could not be done before 2003?


Chages whole ball game today, because back in 1990 when first big federal election law was put into place, and in 03', and thousands of state laws which have been on the books way prior to 90 and 03, and were completely wiped out now, foreigners didn't own US subsidiaries in USA and positions in US corps or outright to the extent they do now. Like the Al Saud family owns over 10% of citi today and so forth. This removal of foreign influence was the main impetus behind the McCain, the (R) part, of the McCain Feingold bill.

I'm not the only one saying it. Many on the right and interested in maintaining US sovereignty are very concerned. Enjoy your Manchurian candidates.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0110/31845.html

If you have not seen Manchurian candidate, nothing against Denzel, But I implore you to watch the first one...Top 5 movie of all time IMO.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Well in theory corporate board members should vote in the best interests of their share holders. If they were doing that, and in doing so they donated money to a political party, I have no problem with that.

And you should have a serious problem with it.

The modern corporatocracy that is filled with massive institutions that frequently mock the power of 'government' the way symbolically skyscrapers dwarf the once largest national building the White House, is a situation the founding fathers didn't have much of a hint existing, the closest model being the monarchy and nobility, but measures against that only led to the same power being concentrated in this new form. I've little doubt they would agree it can be a threat that Democracy can hardly exist with.

Its agenda is very short-sighted and narrow, for its own gain. Now let's talk about that.

What's the common model in history? It's a powerful few and nearly everyone else barely making it, serving them either with labor or as military. Not much time for the American dream of a middle class in which the citizens actually count for something, where they can live a more fulfillng situation - each owning more resources to be comfortable and leaving the rich with less of a dominating share of the wealth.

That's just what the vote and democracy were created for, to give people more power than they normally had, in the form of a vote, with which the people could say 'no' to the powerful becoming masters.

You really need to think about this, Rainsford. What is the interest of corporations? It's in zero cost labor, for one thing. Now, zero cost isn't quite available - slaves need care, and the gilded age workers needed to eat. So the average American salary in 1900 (adjusted for inflation) was $10,000 in today's dollars. That's the corporate interest. The corporate interest isn't in any number of great things for the people of the country that the people like, but don't enrich corporations. It's not in the heatlchare of the elderly or sick.

Sure, it's cost effective to provide a level of healthcare for the productive, but those with expensive conditions are not valuable economically to treat - only those who value them as people. Not corporations.

Watch the movie "The Corporation" and recognize their interests. Watch country after country where the corporations were empowered and the people became virtually slaves. It's one of the forms of tyranny.

People take our middle class for granted, not realizing it's an exception in history created by our democracy working and overcoming the corporations that the current situation is taking away.

Just as corporations snuck in personhood to the law in 1886, in free trade agreements they are sneaking in anti-democratic measures that cripple democracies' ability to represent the people. In the name of 'protecting corporations from the excesses of democracies', laws are passed - bribed by the corporations to pass them - which let business sure for nation-bankrupting amounts of damages if nations dare to say their products are restrcited or banned for the good of the public. THis effectively prevents democracy from having much of any power over the corporations.

Maybe it's easier to understand the impact if I told you to pretend we were ending any vote by the people and only corporations would run things.

Can you imagine how bad that would be? Well, think about it, because those harms are largely the same as we're going to do by greatly diminshing the power of the people by giving the far wealthier corproations so much more power to dominate the system, with their massively resourced efforts oto identify their legislative goalds and even write the bills and just tell Congress to pass them, the way it works a lot NOW, BEFORE this.

Are you getting the point about why you should be very, very concerned about the corporations getting this increased role in our democracy, reducing citizens' power?

On the other hand, if they use their control of corporate assets to financially support a political candidate they personally like, with no expectation that supporting that person will help the company they control, they should at the very LEAST be removed from their position. In fact, if I was in charge, those kind of people would be thrown into prison for misusing share holder assets.

The problem isn't that corporations can donate to candidates, the problem is that corporate executives can treat company assets like their personal piggy bank when it suits them. But I think the solution is tighter restrictions (or oversight) on executive authority, not limiting campaign donations.

You're really missing it with this distinction between 'corporate interests' and 'officer's personal preferences'. It's the corporate interests you approve that are the worst threat.
 
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Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
And you should have a serious problem with it.

If they get taxes why shouldn't they get to use money to advocate for their interests. They actually have skin in the game, what about that 47% of Americans who pay no federal income taxes or get tax credits?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
If they get taxes why shouldn't they get to use money to advocate for their interests. They actually have skin in the game, what about that 47% of Americans who pay no federal income taxes or get tax credits?

You flush a toilet or drive the street you pay federal taxes.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
And you should have a serious problem with it.

The modern corporatocracy filled with massive institutions that frequently mock the power of 'government' they way symbolically skyscrapers dwarf the once largest national building the White House, is a situation the founding fathers didn't have much of a hint existing, the closest model being the monarchy and nobility, but measures against that only led to the same power being concentrated in this new form. I've little doubt they would agree it can be a threat that Democracy can hardly exist with.

Its agenda is very short-sighted and narrow, for its own gain. Now let's talk about that.

What's the common model in history? It's a powerfl veiw and nearly everyone else barely making it, serving them either with labor or as military. Not much time for the American dream of a middle class in which the citizens actually count for something, where they can live a more fulfillng situation - each owning more resources ot be comfortable and leaving the rich with less of a dominating share of the wealth.

THat's just what the cotre and democracy were created for, to give people more power than they normally had, in the form of a vote, with which the people could say 'no' to the powers becoming masters.

You really need to think about this, Rainsford. What is the interest of corporations? It's in zero cost labor, for one thing. Now, zero cost isn't quite available - slaves need care, and the gilded age workers needed to eat. So the average American salary in 1900 (adjusted for inflation) was $10,000in today's dollars. That's the corporate interest. The corporate interest isn't in any number of great things for the people of the country that the people like, but don't enrich corporations. It's not in the heatlchare of the elderly or sick.

Sure, it's cost effective to provide a level of healthcare for the productive, but those with expensive conditions are not valuable economically to treat - only those who value them as people. Not corporations.

Watch the movie the corporatin and recognize its interests. Watch country after country where the corporations were empowered and the people became virtually slaves. It's one of the forms of tyranny.

People take our middle class for granted, mnot realizing it's an exception in history created by our democracy working and overcoming the corporations that the current situation is taking away.

Just as corporations snuck in personhood to the law in 1886, in free trade agreements they are sneaking in anti-democratic measures that cripple democracies' ability to represent the people. In the name of 'protecting corporations from the excesses of democracies', laws are passed - bribed by the corporations to pass them - which let business sure for nation-bankrupting amounts of damages if nations dare to say their products are restrcited or banned for the good of the public. THis effectively prevents democracy from having much of any power over the corporations.

Maybe it's easier to understand the impact if I told you to pretend we were ending any vote by the people and only corporations would run things.

Can you imaging how bad that would be? Well, thinki about it, because those harms are largely the same as we're going to do by greatly diminshing the power of the people by giving the far wealthier corproations so much more power to dominate the system, with their massively resourced efforts oto identify their legislative goalds and even write the bills and just tell Congress to pass them, the way it works a lot NOW, BEFORE this.

Are you getting the point about why you should be very, very concerned about the corporations getting this increased role in our democracy, reducing citizens' power?



You're really missing it with this distinction between 'corporate interests' and 'officer's personal preferences'. It's the corporate interests you approve that are the worst threat.
Awesome post craig. Like I say the "Divine Right of Kings" has been supplanted in our atmospherics by new right based on a new mythology, economics, called "Super rights of corporations"

Look at poster above me. Instead of by "grace of God" they are entitled to rule he has merely switched it to "paying taxes" they are entitled to rule. Old mythologies die hard. We must not forget Thomas Jefferson's words that - “Governments are instituted among men, and derive their just powers from the consent of the governed” or we shall perish.

Not joking about perish either. All these old people are about to cost us way to much money. Simple just eliminate medicare and SS. My 10 year forecast looks something like this:
1) there will be the elite - those with wealth above tens of millions.
2) they will hire 10% of pop to protect them and they will be new middle class (kids get some .mil experience - you will either be a protector or little people)
3) 90% will be in squalor. Have to pay back those Tbills the 0.5% own. We are all joint and serverly liable as US citizens. They will get paid back before anything is paid.
4) All goodies and levelers for middle class will evaporate, SBA loans, FHA, Student loans, any social welfare.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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If they get taxes why shouldn't they get to use money to advocate for their interests. They actually have skin in the game, what about that 47% of Americans who pay no federal income taxes or get tax credits?

First of all, every American has 'skin in the game' inherently by being a human being who is a citizen of the United States here. Our people make our government for the benefit of our people.

It's called inherent value of life - an idea in morality you are likely not familiar with.

Second, most of the people are the backbone of our society with their work. Slaves paid no tax - but they did most of the manual labor of the south, building it. Did they have no 'skin in the game'?

Go look at the guy who is out emptying your trash 40 hours a week making little - his contribution can include his making little - cheap labor increases the GDP. THat's a contribution.

How about millions of poor workers not make their contributions and we see how you like that?

Third, they do pay all kinds of other taxes - many of which are regressive, weighted against the poor. Who pays a higher percent of their income to sales tax, to property tax, the poor and middle or the rich?

The rich who can watch the trash man from a recliner with a drink napping while his wealth is off being increased by money managers for him to pay a max of 15% long term tax on?

This idea that people with fortunes built on the backs of others should pay less tax while the poor workers are the parasites is some of the sick ideology much of our country have been fed and swallowed.

Liberals believe in the American dream. You support policies to destroy it.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
First of all, every American has 'skin in the game' inherently by being a human being who is a citizen of the United States here. Our people make our government for the benefit of our people.

It's called inherent value of life - an idea in morality you are likely not familiar with.

Second, most of the people are the backbone of our society with their work. Slaves paid no tax - but they did most of the manual labor of the south, building it. Did they have no 'skin in the game'?

Go look at the guy who is out emptying your trash 40 hours a week making little - his contribution can include his making little - cheap labor increases the GDP. THat's a contribution.

How about millions of poor workers not make their contributions and we see how you like that?

Third, they do pay all kinds of other taxes - many of which are regressive, weighted against the poor. Who pays a higher percent of their income to sales tax, to property tax, the poor and middle or the rich?

The rich who can watch the trash man from a recliner with a drink napping while his wealth is off being increased by money managers for him to pay a max of 15% long term tax on?

This idea that people with fortunes built on the backs of others should pay less tax while the poor workers are the parasites is some of the sick ideology much of our country have been fed and swallowed.

Liberals believe in the American dream. You support policies to destroy it.

And just like the trash man, corporations provide jobs.

Other than being against corporations just to be against corporations you really have no point.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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And just like the trash man, corporations provide jobs.

Other than being against corporations just to be against corporations you really have no point.

If your reading comprehension exceeded roadskill, you would have read me say I strongly support corporations as an essential, efficient instituion in our society. It's abuse I'm against.

Too big to fail, right to dominate our political system and overpower the citizens turning them into powerless peons, profit based on parasitical activities based on the power to steal instead of value, and more.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Does that giv e the coporation the right to speak for people who own stock or work for a corporation but disagree with it's political views?

Why shouldn't it? If those shareholders don't like said speech, they need not associate with it.

Does an imagined entity have rights to free speech? It has no brain or morals so why should it get free speech rights?

Because it's an association of individuals. If individuals get free speech, why not associations of individuals?

My God, I can't believe people are this dense!!

Quite the contrary.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Why shouldn't it? If those shareholders don't like said speech, they need not associate with it.



Because it's an association of individuals. If individuals get free speech, why not associations of individuals?



Quite the contrary.

Agreed. These same complaints are common to any association of individuals. No one is going to agree with everything their government does. Not everyone in a union wants to elect Democrats. And not everyone associated with a corporation is going to agree with an issue that the corporation as an entity finds important; some employees will have taken their jobs as a purely pragmatic income decision, and some stockholders will likewise own shares as a purely pragmatic income decision. Also, one could support the corporation as a whole but still disagree with it on a particular issue, even if that issue is very important to the corporation. Not allowing a corporation to spend money on the grounds that some shareholders disagree would be tantamount to not allowing any expenditures, and in the case of political lobbying would greatly reduce the amount of political power the majority of the shareholders have to protect their investment (and the employees' jobs) from punitive government legislation.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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350
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Bribery is not expressly protected by the Constitution and Bill of Rights, like Free Speech is.

If the two were the same, then they would have the same word, defining them. They are not the same. One is Free Speech, and the other is Bribery.

-John

No, you side has said money=free speech. Just because there are differenrd words don't make somethig different.

Watch: Sex. Making love. Screwing. Sleeping with a hooker. All words and phrases for things that are sometimes the same, sometimes subtle differences, sometines more differences but things in common.

You have to actually discussed them, your 'if there's a different word they have nothing in common' simplicity is wrong.

Try using a little rationality. Listen to the post. WHY is bribery not protected free speech under this ruling and your position? 'It's not the same word' is not an answer, I can beat that point all day if you need.

You write a letter to your congressman telling if he won't vote yes on X, you will vote against him. If he votes yes on X, you will vote for him. You are using your free speech to try to get him to vote how you want.

Now someone tells him - money=free speech, you say - they will use $500,000 of free speech to support him if he votes yes on X and pay $500,000 to oppose him if he doesn't.

It's the exact same thing by your definition - the use of free speech - money by your definition is free speech - to get him to vote how you want.

What's the difference by your definition?
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,837
2,622
136
Superb column by Ruth Marcus of the Washington Post here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/22/AR2010012203897.html

Well worth reading. Rather than posting more drivel about toilets and taxes corporations, I'd like a supporter of this decision to explain to me why The Surpeme Court basing a ruling on issues not presented to the lower courts and admittedly not necessary to resolution of the case before it does not ipso facto constitute judicial activism.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
And the Dems have shown that they put the poor ahead of their donors?

They are both the same coin.

Dems are far more for the poor and middle than the Republicans. The infiltration of the corporatocracy to the Democrats that has taken over the Republcans meansit's a mixed bag, but they're a lot better.

If you want to argue that the Republicans are equally the party represemnting the interests of the poor, you're seriously delusional and there's no further discussion.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Superb column by Ruth Marcus of the Washington Post here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/22/AR2010012203897.html

Well worth reading. Rather than posting more drivel about toilets and taxes corporations, I'd like a supporter of this decision to explain to me why The Surpeme Court basing a ruling on issues not presented to the lower courts and admittedly not necessary to resolution of the case before it does not ipso facto constitute judicial activism.

The Supreme Court interprets the constitution.

The right to free speech is extended to individuals and, according to this court's interpretation, associations of individuals.

That's it.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I find it funny how you position yourself with the opinion that the court exercising their role as the 3rd branch of government is somehow anti democratic but you want to take the power out of the hands of the states when they choose to enact laws.

More idiocy. You argue that nothing the court can ever rule can be anti-democratic. If they declared tomorrow that only billionares are allowed to vote from now on, that's third branch democracy.

No, I'm not going to waste time replying fuurther to the idiocy that the ourt's actions arent important to the question of whether they're supportig democracy - just that they meet.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The Supreme Court interprets the constitution.

The right to free speech is extended to individuals and, according to this court's interpretation, associations of individuals.

That's it.

No, that's not it, not even close. Your willful ignorance, ignoring many posts, trying to distort the issue to fit your ideology, is not honest or correct.

Hey, it's fine for Congress to vote unlimited amounts of tax dollars be spent on their own campaigns. After all, they're just an association of individuals, who are protected in this free speech.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Superb column by Ruth Marcus of the Washington Post here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/22/AR2010012203897.html

Well worth reading. Rather than posting more drivel about toilets and taxes corporations, I'd like a supporter of this decision to explain to me why The Surpeme Court basing a ruling on issues not presented to the lower courts and admittedly not necessary to resolution of the case before it does not ipso facto constitute judicial activism.

Good post and very useful column, thanks.
 

gsellis

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2003
6,061
0
0
Dems are far more for the poor and middle than the Republicans.
Progressives are trying to get the Doleist class large enough to have a majority on the assumption it is 'fair'. It is all about power and remaining in office.

The major assumption, that is incorrect, is that 'corporations' are these large monoliths run by secret star chambers planning on ruling the planet. Too much Hollywood. This ruling also controlled the Incs and S Corps that are individual or joint income tax filers. What about their speech? Oh, that could be you, your parents, your sibs...
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
If they get taxes why shouldn't they get to use money to advocate for their interests. They actually have skin in the game, what about that 47% of Americans who pay no federal income taxes or get tax credits?

WTF are you blabbing about?? Everybody who live is this country has "skin" in the game.