Supreme Court Drop-Kicks McCain/Feingold, Scores Victory for 1st Amendment;

Page 15 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
How can anyone argue with this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
When government seeks to use its full power, including the criminal law, to command where a person may get his or her information or what distrusted source he or she may not hear, it uses censorship to control thought [Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the majority]. “This is unlawful. The First Amendment confirms the freedom to think for ourselves.”
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
What advantage is taken away from the Democratic party with this decision?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
What advantage is taken away from the Democratic party with this decision?

Nothing. Considering by a far margin the biggest PACs contribution wise put their money to donate directly to democrat campaigns - aka unions, etc.

Democrats don't like this dirty little secret because it gives them an advantage by upping contributions to candidates. Now the freedom of speech can combat that. Remember the mantra - "you have freedom of speech, as long as you agree with me".
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Nothing. Considering by a far margin the biggest PACs contribution wise put their money to donate directly to democrat campaigns - aka unions, etc.

Democrats don't like this dirty little secret because it gives them an advantage by upping contributions to candidates. Now the freedom of speech can combat that. Remember the mantra - "you have freedom of speech, as long as you agree with me".

I think someone should remind you geniuses that McCain is not a Democrat.

This issue isn't about left vs right, both sides have their enormously influential organizations supporting them (unions and corporations), and both sides benefit from being able to accept huge amounts of campaign money from single donors. Campaign finance reform is very unpopular on both sides for this reason.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Money can be speech, as long as the person giving the money is treating it that way. If some right-wing corporation wants to support the Republican party because the board believes in Republican views, more power to them.

No, its' not fine.

If the board as citizens believes in the Republican Party, they can donate their personal funds.

That's a role for citizens, not corporations. We don't allow non-American to donate, because twe recognize their agenda is for their own good and their nation's good, not America's.

Corporate agendas are for the corporaiton's good, not America's - that's not only allowed, it'srequired by law. The most powerful corporations are mlti-national as well.

Citizens have an artifical power called the vote, and they have free speech to discuss issues. Corporations don't use free speech to decide issues. They aren't listening for your points on the good of society.

Their agenda is fixed, their own profit no matter what the harm to society. Their use of speech is not free, it's dictated by that and it's one way: the most powerful propgaganda they can buy, using their deep business, not citizen, pockets that are far bigger than citizens', to buy media to force their message to defeat the citizens' decision whenever it conflicts. Typically that means paying for attack ads against the people supporting the public wishes (or at least another corporate faction) and not theirs.

The money that is for business, with a business agenda for corporate profit, has no business being allowed to act like it's a citzen and try to defeat citizens' positions.

That is the people of the United States enslaving themselves to corporate masters and their owners. throwing away the political power from the vote given to them by the constitution.

They go from the citizens who take sodas out of schools for health reasons to consumers whose only choice is coke or pepsi.

The problem is that often companies AREN'T treating their donations as speech, they are treating them as bribes. There is NOTHING about "free speech" I can see in donating identically huge sums to BOTH candidates, which is something companies often do.

You're making up some 'legitimate' corporate speech. It doesn't exist. At best, corporations happen to agree with the people on an issue - and further back it, but that does no good since it's already the opinion.

THe corporation isn't a citizen with any concern for the nation or the people's well being. It does't have any right to the vote given to the people - or to use its great business wealth to buy those votes.


The other problem with non-capped donations is that it gives too much power to organizations that donate at the expense of people. Sure, a few million people could donate as much as a giant company or large union, but the union or company speak with one voice, so it's MUCH easier for them to trade money for influence than it is for us little guys to do so.

THe richest people in the world have their money dwarfed by their corporations. But that isn't the point. The point is that the corproations are a corrupting voice who has no right to overturn the citizens.

I'm conflicted about this decision, to be honest. I don't like the idea of laws limited how you can contribute to causes you believe in...but I also don't like the idea of huge companies and/or unions being able to effectively buy the government.

You shouldn't be. Our Democracy was already losing the war with corporations before this. These are going to be the golden ages before every politician who stood up to corporations was targetted and taken out.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
What advantage is taken away from the Democratic party with this decision?

Who cares? The advantage to the American people lost is for them not to have their political views defeated by far more money out only for the profit of the corporations, not the good of society or citizens.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
When government seeks to use its full power, including the criminal law, to command where a person may get his or her information or what distrusted source he or she may not hear, it uses censorship to control thought [Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the majority]. “This is unlawful. The First Amendment confirms the freedom to think for ourselves

I don't see how it will be possible for government to pass a law, that puts limits on political speech and that passes the constituional muster.
 
Last edited:

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
When government seeks to use its full power, including the criminal law, to command where a person may get his or her information or what distrusted source he or she may not hear, it uses censorship to control thought [Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the majority]. ?This is unlawful. The First Amendment confirms the freedom to think for ourselves

I don't see how it will be possible for government to pass a law, that puts limits on political speech and that passes the constituional muster.

What is the constittional basis for outlawing bribery? In my constitutionally protected opinion, "yes" is the right position on issue X. I approach Congressman Smith, and say, "this is my opinion. Money is free speech, and I will express $500,000 of my free speech to re-elect you if you agree to vote "yes". I will spend the $500,000 against you if you do not." Where does the first amendment allow the federal government to interfere with that free speech? My free speech to make the offer? The Congressman's free speech to accept it and vote how he wants? 'Bribery' is merely using speech - speech money.

Indeed, don't candidates already make promises to vote certain ways already, as part of offered deals for votes and donations? I promise to vote yes on X - and I ask for your vote and donation.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
The difference is that one "contribution" of $500,000 is pre-election... the other "bribe" is post election.

-John
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
The difference is that one "contribution" of $500,000 is pre-election... the other "bribe" is post election.

-John
How many politicians make promises to get elected and then renege on them?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The difference is that one "contribution" of $500,000 is pre-election... the other "bribe" is post election.

-John

You didn't answer my question. What is the constitutional basis for denying a person the right of offering $500,000 of their free speeech if the Congressman votes they way they want?
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
You didn't answer my question. What is the constitutional basis for denying a person the right of offering $500,000 of their free speeech if the Congressman votes they way they want?

The SCOTUS was NOT asked to decide if money= speech.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
There is no constitutional basis for denying someone from bribing a Congessman.

The Constitution was about rights, like free speech, and not about criminal acts like Bribery.

-John
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
There is no constitutional basis for denying someone from bribing a Congessman.

The Constitution was about rights, like free speech, and not about criminal acts like Bribery.

-John

Come on, John. How many word games would you like to play that are goingto get corrected?

The question was, what is the constitutional basis for the Congress to OUTLAW bribery, just as the right is asking here what is the constitutional basis for the Congress to limit corporation spending in elections.

If the 'free speech' in the constitution protects corporate money, why doesn't it protect money for bribes? After all, money is free speech, is the doctrine already established.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
Bribery is not expressly protected by the Constitution and Bill of Rights, like Free Speech is.

If the two were the same, then they would have the same word, defining them. They are not the same. One is Free Speech, and the other is Bribery.

-John
 

Sclamoz

Guest
Sep 9, 2009
975
0
0
How can anyone argue with this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
When government seeks to use its full power, including the criminal law, to command where a person may get his or her information or what distrusted source he or she may not hear, it uses censorship to control thought [Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the majority]. &#8220;This is unlawful. The First Amendment confirms the freedom to think for ourselves.&#8221;

Mr. Justice Rehnquist, dissenting.

This Court decided at an early date, with neither argument nor discussion, that a business corporation is a "person" entitled to the protection of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific R. Co., (1886). Likewise, it soon became accepted that the property of a corporation was protected under the Due Process Clause of that same Amendment. See, e. g., Smyth v. Ames, (1898). Nevertheless, we concluded soon thereafter that the liberty protected by that Amendment "is the liberty of natural, not artificial persons." Northwestern Nat. Life Ins. Co. v. Riggs, (1906).

Before today, our only considered and explicit departures from that holding have been that a corporation engaged in the business of publishing or broadcasting enjoys the same liberty of the press as is enjoyed by natural persons, Grosjean v. American Press Co., (1936), and that a nonprofit membership corporation organized for the purpose of "achieving . . . equality of treatment by all government, federal, state and local, for the members of the Negro community" enjoys certain liberties of political expression. NAACP v. Button, (1963).

The question presented today, whether business corporations have a constitutionally protected liberty to engage in political activities, has never been squarely addressed by any previous decision of this Court. 1 However, the General Court of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, the Congress of the United States, and the legislatures of 30 other States of this Republic have considered the matter, and have concluded that restrictions upon the political activity of business corporations are both politically desirable and constitutionally permissible. The judgment of such a broad consensus of governmental bodies expressed over a period of many decades is entitled to considerable deference from this Court. I think it quite probable that their judgment may properly be reconciled with our controlling precedents, but I am certain that under my views of the limited application of the First Amendment to the States, which I share with the two immediately preceding occupants of my seat on the Court, but not with my present colleagues, the judgment of the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts should be affirmed.

Early in our history, Mr. Chief Justice Marshall described the status of a corporation in the eyes of federal law:
"A corporation is an artificial being, invisible, intangible, and existing only in contemplation of law. Being the mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties which the charter of creation confers upon it, either expressly, or as incidental to its very existence. These are such as are supposed best calculated to effect the object for which it was created." Dartmouth College v. Woodward, 4 Wheat. 518, 636 (1819).

The appellants herein either were created by the Commonwealth or were admitted into the Commonwealth only for the limited purposes described in their charters and regulated by state law. 2 Since it cannot be disputed that the mere creation of a corporation does not invest it with all the liberties enjoyed by natural persons, United States v. White, (1944) (corporations do not enjoy the privilege against self-incrimination), our inquiry must seek to determine which constitutional protections are "incidental to its very existence." Dartmouth College, supra, at 636.

There can be little doubt that when a State creates a corporation with the power to acquire and utilize property, it necessarily and implicitly guarantees that the corporation will not be deprived of that property absent due process of law. Likewise, when a State charters a corporation for the purpose of publishing a newspaper, it necessarily assumes that the corporation is entitled to the liberty of the press essential to the conduct of its business. 3 Grosjean so held, and our subsequent cases have so assumed. E. g., Time, Inc. v. Firestone, (1976); New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, (1964). 4

Until recently, it was not thought that any persons, natural or artificial, had any protected right to engage in commercial speech. See Virginia State Board of Pharmacy v. Virginia Citizens Consumer Council, (1976). Although the Court has never explicitly recognized a corporation's right of commercial speech, such a right might be considered necessarily incidental to the business of a commercial corporation.

It cannot be so readily concluded that the right of political expression is equally necessary to carry out the functions of a corporation organized for commercial purposes. 5 A State grants to a business corporation the blessings of potentially perpetual life and limited liability to enhance its efficiency as an economic entity. It might reasonably be concluded that those properties, so beneficial in the economic sphere, pose special dangers in the political sphere.

Furthermore, it might be argued that liberties of political expression are not at all necessary to effectuate the purposes for which States permit commercial corporations to exist. So long as the Judicial Branches of the State and Federal Governments remain open to protect the corporation's interest in its property, it has no need, though it may have the desire, to petition the political branches for similar protection. Indeed, the States might reasonably fear that the corporation would use its economic power to obtain further benefits beyond those already bestowed. 6 I would think that any particular form of organization upon which the State confers special privileges or immunities different from those of natural persons would be subject to like regulation, whether the organization is a labor union, a partnership, a trade association, or a corporation.


One need not adopt such a restrictive view of the political liberties of business corporations to affirm the judgment of the Supreme Judicial Court in this case. That court reasoned that this Court's decisions entitling the property of a corporation to constitutional protection should be construed as recognizing the liberty of a corporation to express itself on political matters concerning that property. Thus, the Court construed the statute in question not to forbid political expression by a corporation "when a general political issue materially affects a corporation's business, property or assets." (1977).

I can see no basis for concluding that the liberty of a corporation to engage in political activity with regard to matters having no material effect on its business is necessarily incidental to the purposes for which the Commonwealth permitted these corporations to be organized or admitted within its boundaries. Nor can I disagree with the Supreme Judicial Court's factual finding that no such effect has been shown by these appellants. Because the statute as construed provides at least as much protection as the Fourteenth Amendment requires, I believe it is constitutionally valid.

It is true, as the Court points out, ante, at 781-783, that recent decisions of this Court have emphasized the interest of the public in receiving the information offered by the speaker seeking protection. The free flow of information is in no way diminished by the Commonwealth's decision to permit the operation of business corporations with limited rights of political expression. All natural persons, who owe their existence to a higher sovereign than the Commonwealth, remain as free as before to engage in political activity.
Cf. Maher v. Roe, (1977).

I would affirm the judgment of the Supreme Judicial Court.

From First National Bank of Boston V. Belotti in 1978.
 
Last edited:

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
Just to be clear, Sclamoz... the current state of things is that a corperation is a person?

-John
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
From First National Bank of Boston V. Belotti in 1978.

Excellent citation. This was ANOTHER 5-4 decision which by one vote chose corporations over citizens and harmed or democracy greatly.

It was written by Lewiss Powell, who was a right-wing ideologue famous for his memo advocating the creation of the right-wing think tank system and use of the media to overcome public opinion.

His basic point was, liberals keep winning because they are 'on the side of right', and laid out a plan for how to defeat the public on this, soon after followed by his appointment to the Supreme Court by Nixon.

These corporatists - from the extremist pro-business couort of the later 19th century, to Powell to John Roberts, are very anti-democratic, aiming to return the US to oligarhy.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Editors' Note: Two of these three proposed Amendments to the U.S. Constitution now are being promoted by a new coalition, MoveToAmend, which emerged on Jan 21, 2010. We believe a proactive and ambitious platform is needed to reverse the decline of democracy in America and reverse the Supreme Court's anti-democratic interpretation of our Constitution. We invite your feedback on this approach and individual amendments.
An Amendment to Preclude Corporations from Claiming Bill of Rights Protections
SECTION 1. The U.S. Constitution protects only the rights of living human beings.

SECTION 2. Corporations and other institutions granted the privilege to exist shall be subordinate to any and all laws enacted by citizens and their elected governments.

SECTION 3. Corporations and other for-profit institutions are prohibited from attempting to influence the outcome of elections, legislation or government policy through the use of aggregate resources or by rewarding or repaying employees or directors to exert such influence.

SECTION 4. Congress shall have power to implement this article by appropriate legislation.

More on why we need to revoke corporate constitutional privileges
(a.k.a., corporate personhood)

An Amendment to Reverse Buckley v. Valeo and Dominance of Wealth in Electoral Politics
SECTION 1. For the purposes of providing all citizens, regardless of wealth, a more equal opportunity to influence elections, public policy and run for public office; of furthering the principle of &#8220;one person, one vote&#8221; and preserving a participatory and democratic republic; as well as the purpose of limiting corruption and the appearance of corruption, we the people declare the unlimited use of money to influence elections incompatible with the principle of equal protection established under the Fourteenth Amendment.

SECTION 2. The Congress shall have the power to set limits on contributions and expenditures made to influence the outcome of any federal election.

SECTION 3. Each state shall have the power to set limits on contributions and expenditures made to influence the outcome of elections in that state.

SECTION 4. The power of each state to set limits on contributions and expenditures shall extend to all elections in that state, including initiative and referendum elections, as well as the power to lower any federal limits for the election of members of Congress to represent the people of that state.

SECTION 5. Congress shall have power to implement and enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Possible additions/strengthening of Section 1:

Equal protection under the law shall not be abridged or denied on account of wealth, religion, sex, or race.
Include ban on corporate spending within this Amendment, rather than in separate one (see below).
Thanks to Derek Cressman for drafting this Amendment
We've published many article addressing the need to overturn or negate Buckley v. Valeo (see It's Time to Overrule the Supreme Court) and on the need to reverse First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti.


An Amendment to Create a Constitutional Right to Vote
If it seems strange to you that we are calling for an amendment to establish something you thought we already had, you may want to read this article first.


HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION 28
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States regarding the right to vote.

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States:
SECTION 1. All citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, shall have the right to vote in any public election held in the jurisdiction in which the citizen resides. The right to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States, any State, or any other public or private person or entity, except that the United States or any State may establish regulations narrowly tailored to produce efficient and honest elections.
SECTION 2. Each State shall administer public elections in the State in accordance with election performance standards established by the Congress. The Congress shall reconsider such election performance standards at least once every four years to determine if higher standards should be established to reflect improvements in methods and practices regarding the administration of elections.
SECTION 3. Each State shall provide any eligible voter the opportunity to register and vote on the day of any public election.
SECTION 4. Each State and the District constituting the seat of Government of the United States shall establish and abide by rules for appointing its respective number of Electors. Such rules shall provide for the appointment of Electors on the day designated by the Congress for holding an election for President and Vice President and shall ensure that each Elector votes for the candidate for President and Vice President who received a majority of the popular vote in the State or District.
SECTION 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

The above resolution was introduced by U.S. Representative Jesse Jackson Jr. (D-Illinois).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, this is your plan?

Do you have any idea what you are up against?
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Being paid, or paying someone, to promote (on a internet political forum) a political agenda, (right or wrong) is = to corporations expressing political speech with money.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Excellent citation. This was ANOTHER 5-4 decision which by one vote chose corporations over citizens and harmed or democracy greatly.

It was written by Lewiss Powell, who was a right-wing ideologue famous for his memo advocating the creation of the right-wing think tank system and use of the media to overcome public opinion.

His basic point was, liberals keep winning because they are 'on the side of right', and laid out a plan for how to defeat the public on this, soon after followed by his appointment to the Supreme Court by Nixon.

These corporatists - from the extremist pro-business couort of the later 19th century, to Powell to John Roberts, are very anti-democratic, aiming to return the US to oligarhy.

I find it funny how you position yourself with the opinion that the court exercising their role as the 3rd branch of government is somehow anti democratic but you want to take the power out of the hands of the states when they choose to enact laws.