Supplements - Here's what I use... what changes should be made?

[destrekor]

Routine:

Morning - GNC Mega Men Energy vitapack (with meal)
Ultra Fish Oil pill
glucosamine chondroitin pills

On non-training days, this is among the first things I do. I save it for after gym/training, after I eat whatever I end up considering my breakfast meal.


Throughout the day as needed - ON Performance Whey and BSN Syntha-6

Night - GNC ZMA (Zinc Magnesium Aspartate)


On training days (first thing in the morning), the routine and supplements are this:
* 1 scoop whey immediately after wake-up
* PWO - currently Gaspari Nutrition SuperPump Max (just ran out, will return to the Cellucor C4 I still have left). did 3 scoops SuperPump, or 2 scoops C4
* Gaspari Nutrition Size On intra-workout
* usually a little less than 2 scoops whey immediately after workout
* either that protein goes in a calorie-rich smoothie or something, or I follow it up with a breakfast of some sort. Cereal, eggs, sammich, etc.

I'm not the cleanest of eater, I try, and am trying to get cleaner. I am also extremely intolerant of greens/veggies. Shoot me, I know, I'm a terrible person. Can't help it - I cannot stand to not at least tolerate, if not enjoy, what I consume. I'm pretty good about keeping the worst stuff out of my life, but I struggle to incorporate the supposedly good stuff. 😉
I do try and add different greens into smoothies, but not always. I do try and get a glass or two of V8, to at least get something.

I'm curious about AT's thoughts on PWOs, and especially supplements such as major amino acid post-workout supps and similar products. It seems between superpump and size-on, the common opinion is that stack, if not the size-on by itself, covers the need to have a separate amino acid supp.

Should I change out/switch to a new PWO? As I said, I literally just took my last serving, so either I buy some more, buy something else, or finish out the tub of C4 I've got. I definitely feel more of that itchy, let's do this feeling on the C4, but I do kind of feel like (perhaps in my head) that the SuperPump, perhaps alongside with the size-on I drink throughout the workout, does give me a little extra go at the gym. I don't necessarily feel less pumped/excitable, though perhaps ever so slightly, but I do feel like I get a little more boost when actually lifting. Like I can force out a couple reps more, or even handle 5lbs more. That might just be entirely the gym progress itself, versus the supps, but I feel like there is a difference there.


I still have much to learn, and it looks like there is a ton of good stuff for catch-up reading at leangains.com (he seems to understand the actual biological/physiological science of honest fitness-focused nutrition - anyone care to steer me away? I love the actual science, good to see claims backed up with journal and research citations and incorporated with personal anecdotes and experiments that match-up with the theoretical studies cited).

 

[Koing]

I don't buy a PWO. I just go with black coffee and I make my own with creatine, beta alanine and citrulline malate.

Some people swear by PWO but I just go with the above and I'm fine.

I take a BCAA drink intra training and a carb drink as well now that I'm not dieting.

Koing

 

[z1ggy]

^ This. I drink an energy tea and have a scoop of creatine before work out.

I really think the supplement industry is just trying to milk us folks who don't yet have killer bods of our money to look like "that guy/girl" on the cover of xyz magizine.

Just eat healthy and lift weights. I'm no expert but I've lost double digit weight 3 times now and I never did any of the supplements you have taken. Only two were/are creatine and protein (whey) powder.

 

[destrekor]

^ This. I drink an energy tea and have a scoop of creatine before work out.

I really think the supplement industry is just trying to milk us folks who don't yet have killer bods of our money to look like "that guy/girl" on the cover of xyz magizine.

Just eat healthy and lift weights. I'm no expert but I've lost double digit weight 3 times now and I never did any of the supplements you have taken. Only two were/are creatine and protein (whey) powder.

That was more of what I was thinking, the less is more route, but I also never really studied the fitness-specific biologically-available chemicals, so I wanted to at least be on the right track while I started training, and I'd clean things up as I gained experience and made some initial progress.

What I had discovered with the PWOs, and especially that intra workout Size On, is what main compounds are really pushed, in rough estimations of quantity (damn proprietary blends), and based on the ingredient list I can kind of figure out what things are doing what, why, and when... trying to figure out, with a simpler approach (buy the main ingredients in bulk, combine/take at the proper times), just how much and when.

I imagine, or at least I hope, that the bulk ingredient route, like the Creatines and BCAAs and whatnot, is cheaper than buying the ready-made blended products.


If ether of you, and anyone else, can provide exact supplements (brand, actual ingredients/compounds/name of the mix), and quantity.

Ultimately, I know as long as I eat well (which, I recognize needs attention - I'm willing to focus more on supps that help support a weaker natural diet, because there is much I need to address, who knows if I ever will naturally), just getting more protein would be enough to pack on muscle mass.

But I also thoroughly enjoy the science of it all, possibly more so than the process itself, and I also want, as with everything I do in life, to do it as effectively and efficiently as possible. So, that means maximizing gains based on the effort I am currently putting in, which means taking the best combination of nutrients imaginable, and to some degree doing so at the right time of day based on training patterns.

 

[z1ggy]

Sounds like you are trying to use supplements in order to make up for lack of an already healthy diet.

Start with a healthy, all natural diet first. It's not easy but once you get used to it, it's fine. Here's an example of what I eat:

8oz almond milk, protein powder scoop
4oz chicken
3.5oz sirloin
8oz greek non fat yogurt
20 non salted almonds
2-3 handfuls of spinach with a few table spoons of yogurt based dressing
8oz almond milk and protein powder scoop
2-2oz salmon/haddock fillets
2-4oz of turkey

All in all you should be eating every single day, similarly to this if you want to promote lean muscle gains and retention.

Others can chime in about other dieting techniques, such as when one wants to gain mass. Briefly though, you'd eat the same but have more healthy carbs such as brown rice and yams.

 

[Zivic]

food is #1... if your diet isn't right, no supplement or workout is going to get you there.

I see it all the time. People paying money to workout with a trainer 3 days a week. work their @ss off, yet stay obese.... it isn't the supplement or lack of that is going to make or break you. If you rely on supps to make up for a half @ssed diet, you will never get to where you want to be...which hopefully you have very specific goals because if you don't that will become another challenge for you.

I take a lot of supplements... a lot. I can stop taking them tomorrow and it wouldn't make a difference in the long run... well, maybe my protein supplementation would impact me a bit.

A lot of what I take is health based:
Amino acids -> glutamine, creatine, citrulline, GABA, beta alanine, arginine
Protein - general whey protein, and hydrolyzed isolate
glucosamine chondroitin
Fish Oil
multivitamin
ZMA

I have cycled a couple times with DAA, with what I would say are noticeable results. Not crazy, but noticable


My advise to you is the following
-do some serious sole searching. Figure out where you want to be. if all you do is pick out a picture on the net and say "I want to look like that" that IMHO is the most important thing. Know what you are going for. No BS like I want to feel better, look better naked.... be as specific as you can. I want 18" arms, I want to squat 500 lbs, I want 8% bodyfat.

- once you figure out your goal, then work on the road to attain it. This is where your current questions fall in. It doesn't seem like you have a specific goal... and if you do, you don't seem very committed to attaining it when I read -> I'm willing to focus more on supps that help support a weaker natural diet, because there is much I need to address, who knows if I ever will naturally - - because ultimately NOTHING is going to work unless you do... supplements are exactly what they say they are - supplements. they aren't replacements or substitutes.

 

[destrekor]

Sounds like you are trying to use supplements in order to make up for lack of an already healthy diet.

Start with a healthy, all natural diet first. It's not easy but once you get used to it, it's fine. Here's an example of what I eat:

8oz almond milk, protein powder scoop
4oz chicken
3.5oz sirloin
8oz greek non fat yogurt
20 non salted almonds
2-3 handfuls of spinach with a few table spoons of yogurt based dressing
8oz almond milk and protein powder scoop
2-2oz salmon/haddock fillets
2-4oz of turkey

All in all you should be eating every single day, similarly to this if you want to promote lean muscle gains and retention.

Others can chime in about other dieting techniques, such as when one wants to gain mass. Briefly though, you'd eat the same but have more healthy carbs such as brown rice and yams.

Believe me, I get it. I do try and eat healthy in ways that I can.

But supplements, in this case, like protein powders and whatnot, also help keep bills lower. I can't afford that kind of daily diet.
I mean, I'll eat my almonds and peanuts, I'll drink unsweetened almond milk in some of my protein shakes (and normal 2% milk in others), I like dead animals (except anything from the water, as fish and sea insects, and other seaborne lifeforms, are against my beliefs I believe in righteous flavors)).
Greek yogurt, honestly, sounds like a waste of time to me. High in unnecessary carbs like lactose, weak in quality fats (like fat free).
While I hate fake sugars, I do like kroger's Carbmaster-brand yogurt, which still has milkfat but has significantly reduced sugar content.
Outside of that, that brings me to a plethora of animal tissue. I try to get animal tissue and products as much as possible (like eggs), but have to have carb-type "fillers" or snacks. I try to keep my snacking clean, and usually try to reach for the nuts or nut and grain snack pack mixes (think trailmix of a sort, minus fruits).
I'll have peanut butter sandwiches, peanut butter bagels, sandwiches with various lunchmeat, etc etc etc.

My post-workout meal was roughly 16oz of a smoothie I made (recipe below is approx for the 16oz smoothie, I made a rough-measure 2-serving smoothie, approx 32oz):
*peanut butter (maybe 1.5tbsp)
*almond butter (1tbsp?)
*1/4cup (dry) cooked oats (usually don't cook them, wanted to try the difference)
*1.5 scoops of protein powder (roughly 33g of ON Performance Whey)
*1/2 regular banana
*~3-4oz of 2% milk
*ice for consistency and volume


I have to be smart about mixing cheaper nutrition with more costly nutrition. I also hate junk/cheap meats, they cook like shit, taste boring, terrible texture, etc. Maybe if I got the cheapest cuts and brands of all meats, I could fill up my day's nutrition with more... but I find that to be a worse solution than supplements. The worst offending meats (cheap/bad cuts/animal raised cheaply) are actually pretty bad for you too, or at least, outside of the raw protein, you really get little of value. Good meat you get good fatty acids too, also more flavor. 🙂

I'm not trying to debate/fight the idea of eating healthy, please don't get me wrong. It has to be gradual, and it can't break the bank.

 

[Zivic]

it's not expensive to eat clean. this is basically everything I eat
chicken breast
mixed frozen veges
brown rice
eggs
oatmeal
honey
apples/oranges/bananas
small amounts of peanut butter
sweet potatoes
- red meat has been part of my diet maybe 1 time every two weeks.
- I'll eat fish, but not much lately, I can't make it and store it for a couple days and still stomach it. has to be eaten when prepped.

forget the milk and almond butter, just use a little PB
cut out refined carbs like the bread and bagels
forget the processed lunch meats as well. expensive and filled with crap you don't need/want

Beyond the chicken breast, which can be had for <$2/lb, that list is about as cheap as you can get at the grocery store.

get off the "righteous flavors" BS, we eat for necessity. thinking you need to eat for taste/enjoyment is not the right frame of mind.

As Jay Cutler says when asked what his favorite food is... I don't have one. I don't look forward to any meal

 

[destrekor]

food is #1... if your diet isn't right, no supplement or workout is going to get you there.

I see it all the time. People paying money to workout with a trainer 3 days a week. work their @ss off, yet stay obese.... it isn't the supplement or lack of that is going to make or break you. If you rely on supps to make up for a half @ssed diet, you will never get to where you want to be...which hopefully you have very specific goals because if you don't that will become another challenge for you.

I take a lot of supplements... a lot. I can stop taking them tomorrow and it wouldn't make a difference in the long run... well, maybe my protein supplementation would impact me a bit.

A lot of what I take is health based:
Amino acids -> glutamine, creatine, citrulline, GABA, beta alanine, arginine
Protein - general whey protein, and hydrolyzed isolate
glucosamine chondroitin
Fish Oil
multivitamin
ZMA

I have cycled a couple times with DAA, with what I would say are noticeable results. Not crazy, but noticable


My advise to you is the following
-do some serious sole searching. Figure out where you want to be. if all you do is pick out a picture on the net and say "I want to look like that" that IMHO is the most important thing. Know what you are going for. No BS like I want to feel better, look better naked.... be as specific as you can. I want 18" arms, I want to squat 500 lbs, I want 8% bodyfat.

- once you figure out your goal, then work on the road to attain it. This is where your current questions fall in. It doesn't seem like you have a specific goal... and if you do, you don't seem very committed to attaining it when I read -> I'm willing to focus more on supps that help support a weaker natural diet, because there is much I need to address, who knows if I ever will naturally - - because ultimately NOTHING is going to work unless you do... supplements are exactly what they say they are - supplements. they aren't replacements or substitutes.

See my above post regarding the role of supplements for nutrition. There's a crucial money factor involved here.
I'm also not saying, "I eat like absolute shit and refuse to change." If a paleo-fan were to judge my diet (I find inspiration in paleo, but not totally), he probably would say that. 😛
The worst offense in my diet, I'd argue, is the absolute lack of whole vegetables. I find it difficult to incorporate something that might as well taste like, well... soil, random leaves, and shit. I've found no one vegetable that doesn't lead to an almost immediate gag reflex. It sucks, I'd like the natural antioxidants and vitamins.
I do try and seek out ways to have food that has greens stealthily incorporated, but that's also nearly impossible. I can taste the tiniest strand of lettuce in a taco that's supposed to be only meat and cheese. My tastebuds have an insane affinity for detecting the unpleasant. 🙁
I'm of the side that says food should be an enjoyable experience. I have my work set out for me regarding diet, that is something I want to clean up.

That said, I also hopefully have the science correct in that I'm not missing anything that will impact the actual mass building, and fat-shredding goals. Those are more for other aspects of health, which, while they go in-tandem, don't immediately apply like what I am looking for in this thread.

I try to hunt down the best antioxidants, the better variants of key vitamins (like, Vitamin K is both K1 and K2, Vitamin A has a few variants with different quality/importance in the body when you get to the chemical interactions and bioavailability, etc), and in general the long-term important things I am missing in my natural diet.
But I don't feel I'm lacking, through natural diet, the nutritional uptake of those active and available biological compounds used in all steps of the anabolic processes, specifically regarding protein synthesis and muscle growth.

I do have goals, but I also just started, in terms of "doing it seriously."
I have a 4 day a week plan I'm following for 10 weeks (http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/10-week-mass-building-program.html), and I am already seeing visible and physical results as was the goal (moving more, more visible mass).
My initial goal IS rather generic, but it's an important first step in the way I'm approaching this. Rounding out and filling in, focusing on muscle mass at this point in time. I'm using this 10 week program to do what that program is designed for, filling in all muscle groups, hopefully evenly. I want to have much larger legs (calves, quads & hams), for instance, but my main goal is torso and arms.
Most immediate goal: larger chest, upper back, shoulders, biceps, and forearms. Absolutely working on legs because, well you can't leave legs behind. The truly most immediate but also long-term goal is rather vain: improving the look of my chest/torso. I have a "dented chest", rather deep cut in the middle of my lower ribs, which actually pushed up the lowest ribs so that closer to the "outer edge" in the front, I have bone that rises up to actually sit higher than my pecs (if I were lying down on my back, they'd be further off the ground than my nipples, if that helps). That dent also caused a depression in the diaphragm that seems to have pushed it down and out, so that if I flex my stomach/abs, is also pushed further out/higher (lying down). In short, it looks all kinds of fucked up AND majorly screws with attire that really looks BAD if it doesn't fit right. Like suits/business jackets, dress uniforms, well-fitted dress shirts in general. Honestly, I find it negatively impacts all shirts, but some are worse than others. How much others feel it negatively hurts my attractiveness, I do care about a little... but I also just want to look sharp and well-attired. It goes a long way having something actually look like it fits right, that matters in some interviews/situations. And quite simply, I fully know and anticipate it boosting my confidence, which will also help me look better. 🙂

Building up muscle is the first part of one, helping that specific goal, and also I just want to get a good "base" built up, equally, and from there I'll start looking into training regimens that are more focused.
I have in mind, after finishing this 10 week program (I'm going to say I'm on week 5 right now, the first two or three weeks were more familiarization, also I missed half the days), that I'll be more focused on gaining some, cutting more. I have abs, I know it - 7 years of on again/off again, highly varied core training, mostly to improve situps for the Army have to have done something, I just can't see them. Regardless, I do incorporate some core training after some workouts, but I will be focusing more later. The bigger thing is, I need to shed the few pounds of subcutaneous adipose tissue and I imagine a little bit of visceral fat. I have a little layer on my stomach, seems to be the subcutaneous type that's on the "outside" between the skin and abdominal wall. I shouldn't have much visceral, but cutting whatever is there will come with trying to eliminate at least some of the fatty deposits sitting over muscles, obscuring definition.

Once I've gone through a general build and then a continued build with far more cardio and some careful dietary planning (seems there may be some guidance on leangains for that approach) so that I'm at worst maintaining mass and cutting fat, then I'll start to have far, far more specific goals. I'll save any measurement of inches here and there for after this first round of efforts. I haven't been keeping up with cardio, and that will be a long-term must. As winter settles in, I'll be forced to focus on gym cardio routines (generally I dislike machines, though I do highly prefer low-impact for the knee-saving).
After this program, which puts me into early January, aside from the less specific goals mentioned above, I will begin to focus on one very specific goal, though I haven't decided what realistic number to focus on. In April is my next PT test, to max pushups and situps (one half of the goal), means roughly 80 pushups and situps each in 2 minutes. I've never maxed, but I've also never seriously focused on reaching those goals either. I think that's a natural goal to go along with my muscle building efforts. The main goal, the one I've struggled with routinely, and also routinely end up doing a yo-yo progression routine twice a year (build up and ultimately quit), is to improve my run. I'll be honest, I never enjoyed running, ever. I've gotten more "into" it, at least better at tolerating it, and have gotten better about how well I get back into at least passing shape (2 miles in 16:36). I'll also admit I've either barely, barely passed (no or only a few seconds left), or haven't given myself much room (just under 16:00) in a long time. That's partly because I gear up with 6-8 weeks of effort (more active days toward the last 4 weeks as I start worrying more 😛), then quit and repeat half a year later. This time, as part of my "overall health" goal, I also want to get that two-mile time under 14:30 (should be better, or at least close to, the fastest I've ever gotten my time down to, nearly 5 or 6 years ago to boot). I'd like to get under 14:00, and at some point, I wouldn't particularly mind 13:00. I've never ran a single mile faster than 7 minutes, so I know some serious work is involved getting a sub-7 split for more than one mile.
So starting in January, I'll keep lifting (not sure what, maybe a different program, maybe something else entirely, I just don't want to do it haphazardly, which leads to nothing), but my focus will switch from as much muscle mass gain as possible, to that of fat loss and cardio improvement.
I like HIIT and crossfit WODs - my original goal was to join a good box, but I cannot possibly convince myself I can afford that so I went this route. I've previously incorporated HIIT and crossfit concepts into my cardio plans (especially when I just didn't feel like actually running) and actually enjoyed how well they left me physically drained. 🙂

 

[z1ggy]

You're really over thinking this OP.

Just eat a high protein, healthy diet. Have a goal in mind like Zivic said.

Work out hard and work out often. If you want to gain mass, lift heavy. If you want to burn the fat, then do less weight with higher reps and combo that with some good cardio sessions.

Also regarding the money thing..It is expensive I suppose. But what's more important, maintaining your health and becoming even healthier, or spending your extra cash on stuff like Xbox or whatever? If you have absolutely no extra cash and all you do is spend the bare min, then maybe it's time for a 2nd job, or maybe focus on getting a better career.

 

[Zivic]

See my above post regarding the role of supplements for nutrition. There's a crucial money factor involved here.
I'm also not saying, "I eat like absolute shit and refuse to change." If a paleo-fan were to judge my diet (I find inspiration in paleo, but not totally), he probably would say that. 😛
The worst offense in my diet, I'd argue, is the absolute lack of whole vegetables. I find it difficult to incorporate something that might as well taste like, well... soil, random leaves, and shit. I've found no one vegetable that doesn't lead to an almost immediate gag reflex. It sucks, I'd like the natural antioxidants and vitamins.
I do try and seek out ways to have food that has greens stealthily incorporated, but that's also nearly impossible. I can taste the tiniest strand of lettuce in a taco that's supposed to be only meat and cheese. My tastebuds have an insane affinity for detecting the unpleasant. 🙁
I'm of the side that says food should be an enjoyable experience. I have my work set out for me regarding diet, that is something I want to clean up.

That said, I also hopefully have the science correct in that I'm not missing anything that will impact the actual mass building, and fat-shredding goals. Those are more for other aspects of health, which, while they go in-tandem, don't immediately apply like what I am looking for in this thread.

I try to hunt down the best antioxidants, the better variants of key vitamins (like, Vitamin K is both K1 and K2, Vitamin A has a few variants with different quality/importance in the body when you get to the chemical interactions and bioavailability, etc), and in general the long-term important things I am missing in my natural diet.
But I don't feel I'm lacking, through natural diet, the nutritional uptake of those active and available biological compounds used in all steps of the anabolic processes, specifically regarding protein synthesis and muscle growth.

I do have goals, but I also just started, in terms of "doing it seriously."
I have a 4 day a week plan I'm following for 10 weeks (http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/10-week-mass-building-program.html), and I am already seeing visible and physical results as was the goal (moving more, more visible mass).
My initial goal IS rather generic, but it's an important first step in the way I'm approaching this. Rounding out and filling in, focusing on muscle mass at this point in time. I'm using this 10 week program to do what that program is designed for, filling in all muscle groups, hopefully evenly. I want to have much larger legs (calves, quads & hams), for instance, but my main goal is torso and arms.
Most immediate goal: larger chest, upper back, shoulders, biceps, and forearms. Absolutely working on legs because, well you can't leave legs behind. The truly most immediate but also long-term goal is rather vain: improving the look of my chest/torso. I have a "dented chest", rather deep cut in the middle of my lower ribs, which actually pushed up the lowest ribs so that closer to the "outer edge" in the front, I have bone that rises up to actually sit higher than my pecs (if I were lying down on my back, they'd be further off the ground than my nipples, if that helps). That dent also caused a depression in the diaphragm that seems to have pushed it down and out, so that if I flex my stomach/abs, is also pushed further out/higher (lying down). In short, it looks all kinds of fucked up AND majorly screws with attire that really looks BAD if it doesn't fit right. Like suits/business jackets, dress uniforms, well-fitted dress shirts in general. Honestly, I find it negatively impacts all shirts, but some are worse than others. How much others feel it negatively hurts my attractiveness, I do care about a little... but I also just want to look sharp and well-attired. It goes a long way having something actually look like it fits right, that matters in some interviews/situations. And quite simply, I fully know and anticipate it boosting my confidence, which will also help me look better. 🙂

Building up muscle is the first part of one, helping that specific goal, and also I just want to get a good "base" built up, equally, and from there I'll start looking into training regimens that are more focused.
I have in mind, after finishing this 10 week program (I'm going to say I'm on week 5 right now, the first two or three weeks were more familiarization, also I missed half the days), that I'll be more focused on gaining some, cutting more. I have abs, I know it - 7 years of on again/off again, highly varied core training, mostly to improve situps for the Army have to have done something, I just can't see them. Regardless, I do incorporate some core training after some workouts, but I will be focusing more later. The bigger thing is, I need to shed the few pounds of subcutaneous adipose tissue and I imagine a little bit of visceral fat. I have a little layer on my stomach, seems to be the subcutaneous type that's on the "outside" between the skin and abdominal wall. I shouldn't have much visceral, but cutting whatever is there will come with trying to eliminate at least some of the fatty deposits sitting over muscles, obscuring definition.

Once I've gone through a general build and then a continued build with far more cardio and some careful dietary planning (seems there may be some guidance on leangains for that approach) so that I'm at worst maintaining mass and cutting fat, then I'll start to have far, far more specific goals. I'll save any measurement of inches here and there for after this first round of efforts. I haven't been keeping up with cardio, and that will be a long-term must. As winter settles in, I'll be forced to focus on gym cardio routines (generally I dislike machines, though I do highly prefer low-impact for the knee-saving).
After this program, which puts me into early January, aside from the less specific goals mentioned above, I will begin to focus on one very specific goal, though I haven't decided what realistic number to focus on. In April is my next PT test, to max pushups and situps (one half of the goal), means roughly 80 pushups and situps each in 2 minutes. I've never maxed, but I've also never seriously focused on reaching those goals either. I think that's a natural goal to go along with my muscle building efforts. The main goal, the one I've struggled with routinely, and also routinely end up doing a yo-yo progression routine twice a year (build up and ultimately quit), is to improve my run. I'll be honest, I never enjoyed running, ever. I've gotten more "into" it, at least better at tolerating it, and have gotten better about how well I get back into at least passing shape (2 miles in 16:36). I'll also admit I've either barely, barely passed (no or only a few seconds left), or haven't given myself much room (just under 16:00) in a long time. That's partly because I gear up with 6-8 weeks of effort (more active days toward the last 4 weeks as I start worrying more 😛), then quit and repeat half a year later. This time, as part of my "overall health" goal, I also want to get that two-mile time under 14:30 (should be better, or at least close to, the fastest I've ever gotten my time down to, nearly 5 or 6 years ago to boot). I'd like to get under 14:00, and at some point, I wouldn't particularly mind 13:00. I've never ran a single mile faster than 7 minutes, so I know some serious work is involved getting a sub-7 split for more than one mile.
So starting in January, I'll keep lifting (not sure what, maybe a different program, maybe something else entirely, I just don't want to do it haphazardly, which leads to nothing), but my focus will switch from as much muscle mass gain as possible, to that of fat loss and cardio improvement.
I like HIIT and crossfit WODs - my original goal was to join a good box, but I cannot possibly convince myself I can afford that so I went this route. I've previously incorporated HIIT and crossfit concepts into my cardio plans (especially when I just didn't feel like actually running) and actually enjoyed how well they left me physically drained. 🙂

I'm sorry but I cannot take you seriously when you speak the crossfit bull sh!t.

 

[destrekor]

it's not expensive to eat clean. this is basically everything I eat
chicken breast
mixed frozen veges
brown rice
eggs
oatmeal
honey
apples/oranges/bananas
small amounts of peanut butter
sweet potatoes
- red meat has been part of my diet maybe 1 time every two weeks.
- I'll eat fish, but not much lately, I can't make it and store it for a couple days and still stomach it. has to be eaten when prepped.

forget the milk and almond butter, just use a little PB
cut out refined carbs like the bread and bagels
forget the processed lunch meats as well. expensive and filled with crap you don't need/want

Beyond the chicken breast, which can be had for <$2/lb, that list is about as cheap as you can get at the grocery store.

get off the "righteous flavors" BS, we eat for necessity. thinking you need to eat for taste/enjoyment is not the right frame of mind.

As Jay Cutler says when asked what his favorite food is... I don't have one. I don't look forward to any meal

I'm sorry - I'm also of the culinary frame of mind, and I'll never, ever settle for that.
Maybe we'll have to lay that on the table and acknowledge I'll never be a competition body builder. I got that. Simple. Done. I'll never give up the idea of quality culinary experiences. I'd rather not live, period, if we can have everything we have today but not sit down and enjoy food.

It's not at all, "thinking you need to eat for taste/enjoyment is not the right frame of mind." I don't need that, especially not for every meal, but I'll never give up good eats entirely. There's too much good in the world of culinary arts to suggest one must give up everything to eat only the most basic and whole items possible and live as if you lived in the paleolithic era, eating only to survive.

This is about balance - finding the happy medium. Again, I'm not trying to have 35" arms or anything.

I must reiterate - I'm not trying to combat every suggestion/piece of advice. I get it, I get, respect, and appreciate the idea of a clean diet. However, I'm also not going to obsess over going to the furthest extent possible. This gym routine I'm incorporating - it's not about making it a defining part of my life, it's to complement life.
So with that said, yes I'm aiming to clean up my diet a little bit. But I'll admit, I have no intention to be 100% clean, to include removing all bread and refined grains. I do try to incorporate the better, whole grain and lower-carb sandwich breads. There are too many things of culinary interest to me. It's bad enough asking me to limit sugar intake, when most of my preferred culinary creations include sugar and/or grains.
I do limit myself, and don't cook up sweet things often anymore. I'll never be able to quit though. Too much potential awesomeness awaiting within so many ingredients out there, begging to be combined in my kitchen.


That said, there is a time and place - and you CAN properly incorporate refined carbs. To undergo protein synthesis, your body needs glucose, and if you have low-carb meals all around your gym routine (especially if dedicated to morning routines), having simple carbs like refined grains will actually help. Between the gym (muscles using internal glyocgen stores and possibly some from the liver) and further energy requirements of the actual protein synthesis and cellular construction, you'll might use a large portion of total glycogen stores, and you'll want those replenished. Quite possibly, the body might burn and utilize what is digested to do that job throughout the day, instead of tapping actual glycogen stores (instead sending straight glucose, as using free just-digested glucose is better, in terms of energy use, than breaking and/or building additional branches/chains in glycogen molecules for the stored glucose trapped in them.

(not intending to make an excuse for my personal carb intake - I just ramble/digress/segue into long discussions of things that interest me, quite often if you're not familiar with my posting habits)


I hate saying that I'm not trying to be combative, I've said it a few times already, I'm just trying to set a better picture. I'm not rejecting any advice in this thread - I'm simply not going to take it and run with it to the intended point of 100% devotion. I might reach 75% of the nutritional ideals, how about that?

While I personally also tell other people that certain approaches to clean diets are important, and that slightly modified paleo is wonderful (and safe even if dedicated entirely), I am also one who, based on what of the science I am familiar with, do not entirely agree that certain "unclean" things are going to negatively impact an otherwise healthy life.
There's actually been a lot of breakthroughs in the understanding of our body's various states of health, how nutrition is involved, and what second and third order consequences are linked directly to the food itself, and that which is linked to the body itself.
Much of what was actually linked entirely to poor nutrition (and, as understood at the time, the resulting obesity), has now been actually linked not to the food itself (as consumed in the present), but to the adipose tissue (fat). It's an organ, those fatty deposits, not inert. Internal gut fat, the kind surrounding the organs, is called visceral fat, and really the only thing it does is make your health worse. It releases all kinds of hormones and other shit that literally only have negative effects, including inducing low-level systemic inflammation (which is now thought to bear quite a bit of the blame for cardiological health problems). Granted, eating and living terribly helped GET the visceral fat to such high concentrations, but once there, it does most of the damage. It takes removing the original reason (bad eating, bad lifestyle) to remove the fat that does the damage. You could eat well, and maintain a calorie budget that leaves you improving your fitness and overall health, but if you don't actually shed that large visceral fat deposit, you'll still likely suffer all the negative health effects of obesity ("you" is generic, in case you missed that).

To wrap all that up - scientifically, I'm not convinced that, having a mostly clean diet but still eating some refined foods, is going to lead to any significant difference in outcomes compared to a "perfectly clean" diet. Technically, I don't even think you'd find statistically significant differences with a 50% clean diet, depending on what "unclean" things were consumed, as long as all necessary components are indeed consumed one way or the other. Based on what I've been taught, read, researched (honestly, I do enjoy reading studies and research in the various journals), I do think the only difference, for the most part (too many variables to account for without naming all expressly forbidden things and whatnot), will be long-term *possible* tumor/cancer risks. And that only comes from the "processed meats" and whatnot.
That's a personal risk one decides to continue taking or abandon - I've not seen a lick of research that suggests the preservatives and flavor compounds added to lunch meats, for instance, are going to inhibit anabolic processes or discourage such and such. Is there some insanely miniscule risk with unchecked consumption of various preservatives, especially nitrites? Yes. However, it seems there has also been some scientific reconsideration of the dangers of key preservatives like the nitrites and nitrates. Suffice is to say, cured and processed meats might actually pose no danger compared to the standard whole untreated cuts.


In short, for the purposes of this thread, let's go ahead and say I will be making my best efforts to emulate the clean diet approach, but I won't be 100% perfect about it and need to ensure I'm getting everything I should be getting, and possibly more than why nature alone would provide.
Which is, as mentioned before, the point of supplements. To supplement, enhance, add to that which you get. I'm not trying to replace anything.
I'm trying to add more naturally, but at the moment, I am trying to add more, period.
You say you take BCAA supplements, but you could get by and make your goals just fine without them, just focus on the foods that have the key amino acids. 😉

The whole point of this thread, from my perspective, is trying to identify which chemicals I truly need, in what quantities, and what brand is best for my health and wallet. All of these are obviously available naturally, but it's not entirely most-effective to try and get 10g of beta-alanine, specifically, from your diet. Same with even adding creatine - it's not essential. You're body typically tries to make all the creatine it needs internally. You could "stoke the fire" by consuming more natural sources of L-arginine, glycine, and L-methionine (stole from wiki - I'll admit, I had no clue which amino acids were needed to make creatine. 😉) - but I'll bet that would cause problems, by requiring higher calories, less of other things to balance, or simply it would cost more. It's also not at all the most efficient route. Why take all the precursors and hope the body makes a certain amount of the final product without dumping excess precursors, when you can simply take all the final product, in bio-available form?

That's what this thread is for - what combination of supplements will be more effective, to the point that you're beating nature at it's own game. In other words, it's smarter to, say, take 5g of a creatine supplement, and 10g of a good BCAA supplement, then to try to add that on top of what you're already getting. Because the point is, you can still gain muscle mass without those supplements and without adding those chemicals, in those concentrations, through diet. But you'll do it slower - that's the true point of supplements, to beat nature and gain faster than a natural diet allows.



Because I keep trying to end this post, but seem to keep going:

I really am looking for answers at the molecular level. Say, this peptide, this amino acid, this particularly important fat-soluble vitamin that's involved in the anabolic process at one step... you can find it in this natural source (and need such and such amount to get this much of said nutrient), and this supplement is a good choice with this dosage.

 

[destrekor]

You're really over thinking this OP.

Just eat a high protein, healthy diet. Have a goal in mind like Zivic said.

Work out hard and work out often. If you want to gain mass, lift heavy. If you want to burn the fat, then do less weight with higher reps and combo that with some good cardio sessions.

Also regarding the money thing..It is expensive I suppose. But what's more important, maintaining your health and becoming even healthier, or spending your extra cash on stuff like Xbox or whatever? If you have absolutely no extra cash and all you do is spend the bare min, then maybe it's time for a 2nd job, or maybe focus on getting a better career.

Thus why I go this route, and thus my point:

I can spend enough to be healthy and gain mass. Can I afford to do so 100% naturally? Hell no. I don't think anyone even goes that route, anyway.
Even you mention a few scoops of protein powder. Gram for gram, protein powder is more affordable than natural protein sources. I was getting maintenance protein amounts naturally - but it's cheaper to supplement the additional protein I need, just so long as I mind the fact that there are other nutrients of which I need to keep track. I've upped natural protein uptake too, but obviously not 100g+ of natural protein every day on top of what I was previously consuming.

I'm not dedicating all my free time and money to health and the gym - I have other things that need both time and money. And obviously everyone needs to make progress on careers/income. That takes, you know, years. I'll start what I can do now, keep it up as the rest of my life gets better. Starting now, feeling healthier and more confident, will also help make strides toward a better career.
Some time and money goes toward recreation/fun, sure. Quite a bit, lately, has also been going into other possible career pursuits (photography) - and eventually I'll want to dedicate time to finally getting around to putting a decade worth of thoughts and notes I've been fine-tuning into the novel series I've been looking to write for just about forever.


In closing - you all poked me in just the right ways to get me to go into lengthy details and digressions that were rather unnecessary, when really, I just want some guidance on where to best put my money when it comes to nutritional supplements. 😉

I'm sorry but I cannot take you seriously when you speak the crossfit bull sh!t.

Well you can go that direction, or you can, you know, actually be reasonable and understand what isn't your cup of tea does not make something bullshit.


If you don't understand crossfit, then suffice it to say, you simply don't understand crossfit. You likely have the wrong assumptions and preconceptions about what it represents and what it wants to be. It is NOT an alternative to olympic and machine-style weights if what you want to do is build mass. Many people seem to have this hangup.

I'm not a crossfitter, so I'm not offended or anything, but it's a good workout routine that comes with a community. It'll get you healthy, you'll put on mass, and you'll rock the cardio. Is it perfect? No. Don't dare try and sell me the idea that bodybuilding is perfect and/or superior.
Totally different fitness disciplines, with entirely different goals in mind.

I'm saying this as someone who used to view crossfit as superior, and am currently engaged in what is, for all intents and purposes, bodybuilding.

Many crossfitters also still engage in the same bodybuilding routines. The only thing that is different, for those types, is that instead of hitting gym machines, hopping on a bike, grabbing running shoes, hitting the pool, or whatever... they're doing a whole lot more during their cardio routine.

If it helps - it's essentially a massive community with a structured approach to HIIT.
Now please tell me HIIT is bullshit.

 

[Zivic]

I never said limit carbs... limit, or better yet remove, refined carbs. I eat a lot of carbs.

I also don't think you need to be like jay cutler, but thinking in that direction is what it takes. How far you take that is up to you.

from what I am reading you are just making excuses for yourself. That's fine, but when you don't get to where you want to be, you'll know why.

 

[Zivic]

Thus why I go this route, and thus my point:

I can spend enough to be healthy and gain mass. Can I afford to do so 100% naturally? Hell no. I don't think anyone even goes that route, anyway.
Even you mention a few scoops of protein powder. Gram for gram, protein powder is more affordable than natural protein sources. I was getting maintenance protein amounts naturally - but it's cheaper to supplement the additional protein I need, just so long as I mind the fact that there are other nutrients of which I need to keep track. I've upped natural protein uptake too, but obviously not 100g+ of natural protein every day on top of what I was previously consuming.

I'm not dedicating all my free time and money to health and the gym - I have other things that need both time and money. And obviously everyone needs to make progress on careers/income. That takes, you know, years. I'll start what I can do now, keep it up as the rest of my life gets better. Starting now, feeling healthier and more confident, will also help make strides toward a better career.
Some time and money goes toward recreation/fun, sure. Quite a bit, lately, has also been going into other possible career pursuits (photography) - and eventually I'll want to dedicate time to finally getting around to putting a decade worth of thoughts and notes I've been fine-tuning into the novel series I've been looking to write for just about forever.


In closing - you all poked me in just the right ways to get me to go into lengthy details and digressions that were rather unnecessary, when really, I just want some guidance on where to best put my money when it comes to nutritional supplements. 😉

spend it on real food




Well you can go that direction, or you can, you know, actually be reasonable and understand what isn't your cup of tea does not make something bullshit.


If you don't understand crossfit, then suffice it to say, you simply don't understand crossfit. .

I understand ccrossfit and it is still BS... it's some wannabe fitness cult. It will not get you in shape... it can, but I see just as many flabby bodies on the brink of injury attempting to be crossfit "athletes" as I do in any other gym. the difference? "crossfitters" have an arrogant I know what I am doing attitude when they simply "know" enough to seriously injure themselves. I've been training 20 yrs and some schmuck that has spent 2 wks at a box is going to tell me "now this is what you need to do"....

Heck a personal friend of mine lost like 70 lbs doing crossfit and is opening his own gym (box).... would I aspire to look like him? not a freaking chance. You would be correct saying nothing about it interests me.

this is why crossfit is awesome:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=513679692063363&set=vb.381641995257474&type=2&theater

 

[destrekor]

I never said limit carbs... limit, or better yet remove, refined carbs. I eat a lot of carbs.

I also don't think you need to be like jay cutler, but thinking in that direction is what it takes. How far you take that is up to you.

from what I am reading you are just making excuses for yourself. That's fine, but when you don't get to where you want to be, you'll know why.

I imagine there are a few excuses I must be making - give me time. I'm new to full-on gym routines, and am 26. I want to be as healthy as I can be without entirely giving up the other aspects of who I am and/or who I want to be. At the moment, that means something very specific. What that means may shift in time, that much I expect.

As I see where things go, based on gym time, life, career, health... I'll make adjustments where possible. I can't get it 100% right from the start. Me - I want to be doing what is right from the start, where it relates specifically to the gym and muscle building processes. That way, I have the physical and knowledge base to improve upon other aspects of my life as I see fit. For now, making sure I'm doing what is right when within the gym, and making my time at least 90% worth it... that's a solid foundation to build upon later.

As I progress - I may see it valuable and worth my sacrifices to do everything possible to be more healthy and better in the gym. I hope I don't get so addicted to it that all I care about, and all I'm known for, is the idea of fitness itself... but it's always a possible outcome, if I want to paint a realistic picture. I do have an addictive personality. :\
I may see it worthwhile to change aspects of my lifestyle that help me get that extra 10 or 20% out of what I'm doing at the gym... or I may never get to that point. Hell, I may fail altogether and stop caring about the gym a year from now.

I want to get the routine settled now, get entirely settled into the idea of the gym. I'll either make further changes from there, or I won't. There are changes I'd like to make, and changes that I should make that I haven't either acknowledged yet, or it hasn't reached the point where I've been able to convince myself to completely make the change. I won't let that spill into a psychological discussion, but I feel I made my point anyway.


---------------

So... back to the topic at hand everyone. 😛

 

[alkemyst]

I don't buy a PWO. I just go with black coffee and I make my own with creatine, beta alanine and citrulline malate.

Some people swear by PWO but I just go with the above and I'm fine.

I take a BCAA drink intra training and a carb drink as well now that I'm not dieting.

Koing

In reality that is a PWO.

In the end it's what works for each person.

Also to others as it gets old hearing it (just like just do squats, deads, cleans and bench) EVERYONE knows just go with REAL / WHOLE foods, the problem is many of us don't have the ability to carry it around and sometimes some powder in a shaker that water can be added is the best option.

 

[destrekor]

regarding PWOs, they do come in many, many forms.

The most common today, which is a fairly recent trend, is the "concentrated", stimulant-packed mixes, that really don't have all that much in them. Those ones should really be easy to replace with mixing other things at home.
C4 is essentially in that fold, I'm sure I could get the single items elsewhere and mix myself.

SuperPump Max seems quite alright - it doesn't have the immediacy of the concentrated kinds, but it has a lot more good stuff in there.
I can't say, since I haven't studied all of the possible compounds and biological chemicals, that every single thing in that PWO is worthwhile. Gaspari Nutrition definitely likes to sell the idea that their stuff is all about the best scientific approach (which is why it appeals to me so well. I hate marketers, the damned geniuses they are...), but of course, it could be horseshit.

For energy, another major change I do have to make, is drastically cutting back on caffeine. I mostly stick to caffeine pills, and I tend to take the same amount every day, but will cut back if I take caffeine from other sources, like PWOs, or an energy drink or whatever. I generally just like the idea of getting my caffeine pure, without any additives or sugar, and being in charge of my own hydration with plain and simple water (powerade's sugar-free water additive, in the approach of Mio and the like, is awesome btw - generally I just stick to plain water but its great when called for).

Y'all can look up Superpump Max and Size On (both Gaspari Nutrition), but in general, there is definitely a good amount of Creatine, BCAAs, some protein, etc.
Size On is like Koing was talking about, but simplified: a carb-rich drink to sip on during workouts, and while formula is proprietary, they list like 62g or something like that, and based on the other part of the label maybe 40g of that is the carbohydrate matrix they cooked up. IIRC, there's 7g of protein, BCAAs, creatine (a few types) and a few other things (going off memory here) that should be combining to make up the 20-25g difference.

I also have gone back to the ECA stack (might be terribly ineffective, since I've gotten used to Bronkaid (my ephedrine source) for a LONG time now. Another thing I need to cut back on, but moving on. I don't take much caffeine since I have the PWO, and the aspirin is an 81mg baby aspirin.


Regarding the Gaspari Nutrition products, there is something of a concern though. While I feel these products are working great for me, they seem to introduce a lot of magnesium. Not sure if it's broscience or if magnesium is involved here, but there is a fond name that some reviewers give SuperPump Max - SuperDump. Let's say, that, since I went to regularly taking both SuperPump Max and Size On (again, before it was C4, and the Size On is relatively new for me as of a few weeks ago) on gym mornings, well... yeah, superdump is an accurate term.
spoiler tags to hide further detail from the squeamish:

Spoiler

I've definitely had larger bowel movements, in volume, every single day. The worst part, however, is they are not nearly as firm as when I was quite regular. Not quick cleanup, in other words.

So I wouldn't mind moving away from those (or at least from SuperPump Max) and giving something else a try.

 

[Pantlegz]

Orange Triad multi, Creatine, HMB, BCAA's(both first thing in the morning and PWO) I'll throw in whey to help when needed. One thing I've been thinking about adding in is digestive enzymes. Might as well get the most out of the food I'm eating.

 

[Koing]

In reality that is a PWO.

In the end it's what works for each person.

Also to others as it gets old hearing it (just like just do squats, deads, cleans and bench) EVERYONE knows just go with REAL / WHOLE foods, the problem is many of us don't have the ability to carry it around and sometimes some powder in a shaker that water can be added is the best option.

Yeah I said I didn't buy a PWO 😛. I just use the main ingredients for myself.

It may be old but the basics take a person VERY far in training. And yes eating real / whole food again takes a person very far. I'm not saying don't take shakes as I'm realistic with people.

Koing

 

[Pantlegz]

In reality that is a PWO.

In the end it's what works for each person.

Also to others as it gets old hearing it (just like just do squats, deads, cleans and bench) EVERYONE knows just go with REAL / WHOLE foods, the problem is many of us don't have the ability to carry it around and sometimes some powder in a shaker that water can be added is the best option.

I don't think anyone says that supplementing your diet as needed with whey is bad, but people that build their diet around 2-3 shakes a day could do better getting nutrition from whole foods.

 

[TallBill]

I don't buy a PWO. I just go with black coffee and I make my own with creatine, beta alanine and citrulline malate.

Some people swear by PWO but I just go with the above and I'm fine.

I take a BCAA drink intra training and a carb drink as well now that I'm not dieting.

Koing

I'm about the same. I like ON Amino Energy with creatine before which is just Aminos + caffeine for a cheap price, and then either Core ABC or Xtend with a scoop of carbs for an intra, both of which are very well priced and have CM and BA as well as BCAA's.

Other than that... I drink a shake of Gold Standard Whey maybe once a day if that. And that's it.

 

[norseamd]

I'm not the cleanest of eater, I try, and am trying to get cleaner. I am also extremely intolerant of greens/veggies. Shoot me, I know, I'm a terrible person. Can't help it - I cannot stand to not at least tolerate, if not enjoy, what I consume. I'm pretty good about keeping the worst stuff out of my life, but I struggle to incorporate the supposedly good stuff.

my opinion is that it is good to get the good food first than getting rid of the bad food

spinach is great tasting and you can put it in lasagnas or as a topping on sandwiches

try adding green powders to smoothies or something like that

 

[norseamd]

I don't think anyone says that supplementing your diet as needed with whey is bad, but people that build their diet around 2-3 shakes a day could do better getting nutrition from whole foods.

not to mention possible inflammation

protein and whey can be anti inflammatory in the right amounts but even too much of anything can be inflammatory so try to eat a varied diet with a wide range of protein sources

 

[MongGrel]