Sugar is bad, very bad.

Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
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I'm going to drop this video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

It's a long video, over an hour, but it's well worth watching the whole thing. I've literally watched this video, all the way through, several times now. His biochemistry gets a little bit into detail, but he breaks down precisely what happens when your body attempts to absorb fructose and sucrose.

Ever since watching this video I have tried to cut out all sugar out of my diet and am having a hard time with foods that try to sneak in some form of sugar in one way or another. I am starting to become a convert in the war against sweetened foods.
 

Lamont Burns

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Dec 13, 2002
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I'm assuming you did deeper research beyond a youtube video. If you haven't I'd suggest checking out Alan Aragon's blog.
 
Oct 16, 1999
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Aragon hasn't done anything to disprove the substantial content of that video. Plus the guy is a contarian ass. And not a doctor like this guy.
 

Kipper

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Feb 18, 2000
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I've been meaning to watch this...based on a quick read of Aragon's analysis it does seem that Lustig ignores a huge point, which is that the majority of us consume fructose as either HFCS or sucrose. That makes a huge difference.

Will post later...and incidentally, I am inclined to believe Aragon over Lustig based on credentials alone, because he has no nutrition credentials. Simply because someone has an "M.D." after their name is not a reason to put them up on a pedestal and believe everything they say about health and the human body - particularly when it comes to an arena where most physicians have precious little training unless they go out of their way to get it, which is in nutrition and foods.
 
Oct 16, 1999
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It's an irrelevant point. The chemistry doesn't change because the fructose is accompanied by glucose instead of by itself. Which is why I'll go with a scientist over a nutritionist here.
 

Juddog

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Dec 11, 2006
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I've been meaning to watch this...based on a quick read of Aragon's analysis it does seem that Lustig ignores a huge point, which is that the majority of us consume fructose as either HFCS or sucrose. That makes a huge difference.

Will post later...and incidentally, I am inclined to believe Aragon over Lustig based on credentials alone, because he has no nutrition credentials. Simply because someone has an "M.D." after their name is not a reason to put them up on a pedestal and believe everything they say about health and the human body - particularly when it comes to an arena where most physicians have precious little training unless they go out of their way to get it, which is in nutrition and foods.

Lustig's whole point is that HFCS and sucrose are both equally bad.
 

Juddog

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Dec 11, 2006
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Also the whole reason that sugar causes problems isn't so much the calories, but rather the effect it has on the brain. When you eat sugar, your body doesn't think that you just absorbed calories, so you never get the self-regulating "hey I'm full, stop eating" response that your body should be giving out. If I go out and eat an entire bag of M&M's (over 1000 calories", I won't feel full. If I eat the same 1000 calories in fruit, then I'd be completely stuffed.

The reason is that fruit, while containing the same fructose compound, is accompanied by a huge amount of fiber. Consuming fiber gives you the full feeling.
 

mizzou

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Jan 2, 2008
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I just watched the intro for a few seconds:

Could this be summed up as "Stop eating so much!"?
 

MJinZ

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Nov 4, 2009
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Also the whole reason that sugar causes problems isn't so much the calories, but rather the effect it has on the brain. When you eat sugar, your body doesn't think that you just absorbed calories, so you never get the self-regulating "hey I'm full, stop eating" response that your body should be giving out. If I go out and eat an entire bag of M&M's (over 1000 calories", I won't feel full. If I eat the same 1000 calories in fruit, then I'd be completely stuffed.

The reason is that fruit, while containing the same fructose compound, is accompanied by a huge amount of fiber. Consuming fiber gives you the full feeling.

Well if that's the case, I'm all set. Because I actually have a FRONTAL lobe! Yay me!

I can have a some ice cream, or a candy bar or whatever. I don't give a shit if it satisfied my hunger, it was delicious! I don't need more than a snack sized bar that is more than 100 calories. :)

I think the problem boils down to as someone else said in another thread: "You're fat because you're stupid". Either that or you actually wanted to be fat, directly or indirectly - lots of people do so either while bulking and weightlifting or just love BBWs.
 
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MJinZ

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Nov 4, 2009
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I just watched the intro for a few seconds:

Could this be summed up as "Stop eating so much!"?

I basically figured as much. It's like, let's all live life according to our hypothalamus lol.
 

Kipper

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Feb 18, 2000
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Okay, I watched it, and it's a terrific presentation, but I do think that Aragon has a few valid criticisms. Dr. Lustig confused me a bit of the way through, because he abstracts fructose from its glucose counterpart when he talks about sucrose metabolism. First he talks about glucose metabolism, and then in an attempt to equivocate fructose to ethanol, talks about ethanol. He then discusses sucrose up to the point where half of the molecule is fructose, then goes on to talk about fructose metabolism, but this is a problem.

He's jumped from sucrose metabolism to discussing PURE fructose metabolism, effectively leaving out what the glucose side of the molecule does while fructose is being metabolized. The larger portion of his argument (fructose's alleged behavioral effects) rests on the rather large assumption that metabolizing 1/2 of the calories from fructose from a beverage will have the same effects as if all of the calories were from fructose (Aragon's dose criticism). That seems like a rather large leap to me. Moreover, it's not as if metabolism of these sugars is occurring one by one time, they are occurring in parallel (though perhaps not at the same rate). So while the glucose is driving certain reactions, fructose is driving other physiological processes as well. What is the net effect of this parallel-processing effect? He never specifies.

It seems overly simplistic to first, discount the multiple effects of other molecules on fructose metabolism (and subsequent behavior) and second, to discount the dose at which these things occur. That is a HUGE flaw. His presentation leaves you thinking that a bit of fructose will automatically lead to all of the grisly consequences of fructose overconsumption.

A few more criticisms, from my own experience of how people actually eat: Lustig takes all of the humanity out of eating and makes us out to be slaves to our hormones. We have all had the experience of "finding more room" to eat a slice of pumpkin pie after stuffing ourselves full of turkey and cranberry sauce. People with Alzheimer's dementia inexplicably "forget" to eat - or sometimes, as I've seen forget that they've just eaten and eat again. I can't leave food around my computer because I will absentmindedly eat it. I went through 1 lb of almonds in 4 hours this way once and paid the price some two hours later. Some of us eat multiple times during the day out of habit, others do as a compensatory reaction to stress or fear. As humans, we can clearly override our satiety signals. Additionally, Lustig has oversimplified satiety in this presentation - it's not just leptin that causes in satiety, there are a bunch of more hormones (such as peptide YY and alpha-melanocyte stimulating hormone) that promote satiety as does insulin. It's not as simple as one hormone going up, the other going down and wham! Obesity.

I'll also comment that Dr. Lustig seems to have overreached beyond his medical expertise a bit with his "Japanese diet contains no fructose" statement. I'm Japanese, and the Japanese diet has plenty of sucrose if you look for it, they produced it from sugar beets. As Aragon mentioned, there is plenty of fruit native to Japan as well. Where Lustig *may* be on the money, however is that the traditional Japanese diet contains vastly less refined sugar in comparison to the traditional American diet. I'm with Aragon. It isn't as cut and dry as Lustig explains it, although he certainly does make a compelling case.

I would also make a general criticism that employing "master theories" in explaining away what are in appears to be a more complex phenomenon is a bit simplistic, because obesity is a social, economic, and political issue (let's not get into issues of environment, urban planning, demographics, genetics, etc., which further complicate the matter). Lustig does touch on these, but I think that he would try to attribute the increase in average calorie intake to the introduction of large amounts of fructose into the food system, rather than the fact that the Farm Bill drove down prices of commodity crops across the board, which in turn drove food prices down. It's not just corn - wheat, rice, soybeans and cotton are also commodity crops, and the farm bill contains massive subsidies for these (this is essentially Dr. Marion Nestle's argument - a nutritional biochemist and public health advocate interested in the politics/economics of food). This may be because he's a physician, and not an economist, that he is inevitably going to look for a metabolic etiology to the problem, whereas an economist would subject obesity to economic analysis. Dr. Brian Wansink, a psychologist, has also done studies at his Cornell lab that show how visual cues can trick people into consuming more calories than they consciously realize (a concept termed "portion distortion." All of these people are pointing in the same direction, and I think that they're all right. But it seems to be a mistake to say that only one of these theories is true, because obesity is one hell of a lot more complicated than that. If you spent the time to finished reading my really long post, good for you.

P.S. Lustig seems to have quite the penchant for conspiracy theories, as well...or is it just me?
 
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Kipper

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Feb 18, 2000
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Also the whole reason that sugar causes problems isn't so much the calories, but rather the effect it has on the brain. When you eat sugar, your body doesn't think that you just absorbed calories, so you never get the self-regulating "hey I'm full, stop eating" response that your body should be giving out. If I go out and eat an entire bag of M&M's (over 1000 calories", I won't feel full. If I eat the same 1000 calories in fruit, then I'd be completely stuffed.

The reason is that fruit, while containing the same fructose compound, is accompanied by a huge amount of fiber. Consuming fiber gives you the full feeling.

This illustrates one of the problems with Dr. Lustig's argument, which Aragon nicely points out - yes, half of sucrose is fructose but there is glucose in there as well, which stimulates insulin production...and this in itself has a satiating effect on the brain. He completely leaves out the glucose half during his spiel about sucrose. 100% fructose vs. 50% sucrose is a HUGE difference.

As I mentioned, he also doesn't account for the ability of people to mindlessly eat, overriding their satiety signals.
 
Oct 16, 1999
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He's jumped from sucrose metabolism to discussing PURE fructose metabolism, effectively leaving out what the glucose side of the molecule does while fructose is being metabolized.

It doesn't really matter what the glucose side is doing because it doesn't affect how the fructose is metabolized.

The larger portion of his argument (fructose's alleged behavioral effects) rests on the rather large assumption that metabolizing 1/2 of the calories from fructose from a beverage will have the same effects as if all of the calories were from fructose (Aragon's dose criticism).

If you're referring to the lack of an insulin response, I don't think that's what he's arguing. The fructose doesn't illicit an insulin response, therefor the insulin response one has from sucrose is about half of what it would be with glucose. It's inadequate with sucrose, and that becomes more problematic the more sucrose/fructose you consume.
 
Mar 22, 2002
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It doesn't really matter what the glucose side is doing because it doesn't affect how the fructose is metabolized.

If you're referring to the lack of an insulin response, I don't think that's what he's arguing. The fructose doesn't illicit an insulin response, therefor the insulin response one has from sucrose is about half of what it would be with glucose. It's inadequate with sucrose, and that becomes more problematic the more sucrose/fructose you consume.

But you do have to keep in mind, fructose does act on hunger hormones to a certain extent as well. Let's say you had a dextrose molecule (Glucose-glucose). A sucrose molecule might only induce 75% of the leptin/ghrelin response, due to the presence of fructose. I'm really not on either side of the argument. Fructose is bad, yes. Sucrose is bad, yes. HFCS is bad, yes. If you want to optimize body composition, you probably shouldn't eat them. If you want to be as health as possible, you probably shouldn't eat them. Does that mean occasional sucrose will kill you? Hell no, especially if you're active and insulin sensitive.
 

Kipper

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Feb 18, 2000
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It doesn't really matter what the glucose side is doing because it doesn't affect how the fructose is metabolized.

You're right, he did go on a spiel about "elite athletes." I think that was a bit overboard, because all you really need is a bit of liver glycogen depletion, which could easily happen in an individual who's been fasting for a few hours. If that individual took a bolus of pure fructose, some of it would be metabolized into glucose. But the same person consuming sucrose would presumably cause the glucose to be used up immediately for glycogen repletion and the fructose would presumably, end up as fat - both because of the pathway and because glucose moves into the liver faster than fructose.

If you're referring to the lack of an insulin response, I don't think that's what he's arguing. The fructose doesn't illicit an insulin response, therefor the insulin response one has from sucrose is about half of what it would be with glucose. It's inadequate with sucrose, and that becomes more problematic the more sucrose/fructose you consume.

No, I'm more talking about two things: first, the fact that he makes the conceptual leap from "fructose does not induce satiety" (a questionable premise) to "leptin doesn't work," ergo you get obesity, hypertension, and all manner of chronic diseases. This is a broad claim to make, particularly because satiety is a complex thing with multiple hormonal involvement (it is not "just" ghrelin and leptin, as he describes it) AND there are psychological/behavioral/environmental cues to consider when we're talking about peoples' eating habits. Second, without considering dose, concluding that fructose induces all of these metabolic changes, this seems to be an even bigger assumption to me. The way he talks about it you'd think that eating 1 g of fructose would have the same effect as 500 g...which in my understanding is exactly the gripe that Alan Aragon makes. To use Dr. Lustig's alcohol analogy, Aragon's point is that individual differences make a huge impact with regard to the metabolic effects of alcohol, and fructose is no different. Too much is too much - and that's true of ANYTHING.

For example, you can say the same for glucose. Too much glucose would ultimately packs fat cells full of fat, which does lead to metabolic syndrome. True, fructose works slightly differently and *may* yield a different series of conditions but in the big picture the problem is the same - too much food.

Don't get me wrong, I think the presentation is very well put together overall. I just think that he plays up the fructose angle a bit too much and comes off as sensationalist.
 
Oct 16, 1999
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Kipper, it seems you have more of an issue with the presentation as opposed to the content of the video. Watching the summary video I posted my change your mind a little. I didn't get the alarmist tone from Lustig that's being attributed to him. Seemed to me all he was stating is sugar/fructose is bad, more is worse, and we eat A LOT of it in the average American diet. But the summary vid really just sticks to the chemistry and numbers without much commentary.

And of course there is going the be variance between individuals. That's pretty much a given with anything. I don't think Lustig disagrees with that and he is obviously speaking in generalities for the purpose of the presentation. It'd be a waste of his time and ours if he had to explicitly qualify every statement and list every potential exception. Taking issue with this, as well as any tangents he may have left out for practicality, is really weak.

I think Aragon raised his little stink over this video just to get his name associated with it more than anything. I haven't read his blog, but I have read his interactions with folks on the bodybuilding.com message board. He must keep his asshole filter up in his blog posts to be as popular as he is.
 

Kipper

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Feb 18, 2000
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Kipper, it seems you have more of an issue with the presentation as opposed to the content of the video. Watching the summary video I posted my change your mind a little. I didn't get the alarmist tone from Lustig that's being attributed to him. Seemed to me all he was stating is sugar/fructose is bad, more is worse, and we eat A LOT of it in the average American diet. But the summary vid really just sticks to the chemistry and numbers without much commentary.

And of course there is going the be variance between individuals. That's pretty much a given with anything. I don't think Lustig disagrees with that and he is obviously speaking in generalities for the purpose of the presentation. It'd be a waste of his time and ours if he had to explicitly qualify every statement and list every potential exception. Taking issue with this, as well as any tangents he may have left out for practicality, is really weak.

I think Aragon raised his little stink over this video just to get his name associated with it more than anything. I haven't read his blog, but I have read his interactions with folks on the bodybuilding.com message board. He must keep his asshole filter up in his blog posts to be as popular as he is.

Are you actually reading my posts? I've written all over about my problems with how Lustig decides to generalize about human behavior based on a single satiety hormone, to say the least. For a 1.5 hour presentation, the least he could have done is talk about a dose-response. I don't see that as a tangential issue. If you are going to use strong, emotionally loaded language like "fructose is poison," you might as well cover it up. My issue over Lustig being alarmist is the least of the problems in this presentation, as I've extensively written in this thread, it is just a theme I noticed. He is presenting one theory out of many that are equally legitimate, and there are some problems with his argument. That's the bottom line.

If saying "Fructose is a poison" over and over and over again and going on about government and corporate conspiracy theories isn't alarmist I don't know what is. It seems to me that he's more trying to play to a crowd's emotions, rather than make a scientific presentation. My two cents.
 
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Oct 16, 1999
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Frutcose is every bit a poison as alcohol. His whole presentation backs that up. It's not alarmist, it's fact backed by chemistry.

And it's not a conspiracy theory that A) the FDA is run by the very interests it's supposed to regulate and B) these food corporations have chemists whose entire job is engineering products people want to consume, and tweaking them so they want to consume more. What is it with people dismissing acting in one's own economic interest as conspiracy theory?
 

M0oG0oGaiPan

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Dec 7, 2000
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You're missing out if you've never had 1000 calories worth of m&ms.

I remember when I ran my marathon people were handing out candly left and right. Gummi bears around mile 8 or 9 at the back of a walmart. And some lady handed me a fistful of jelly beans around mile 21 or so and I almost choked on them. I dropped a bunch of them too so people were probably tripping on that stuff like marbles.
 

Nintendesert

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Mar 28, 2010
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Since when is alcohol a poison? And Gonand, your post is scary in how far into the conspiracy theory-land it actually traverses.