Success is NOT related to education!

[LegendKiller]

Uh, tuition increasing faster than the benefits. The multiple has topped out but tuition sure has not.

But what's the breakeven?

If a non-college educated person makes 30k and the multiple is 2x, then the college educated person makes 60k. Post tax that is a 15k differential (just assuming 50% overall tax rate). The PV of 15k over 40 years assuming a flat 6.25% interest rate (SL rate, non-floating) is $218k. Is that what a 4yr degree costs? Depends on the college, most do not. That's also not assuming working, having parents pay, or having grants/scholarships. It also is an average so majors which require degrees (e.g. engineering) will theoretically make more than the 2x multiple.

Obviously the breakeven point is nearing but it isn't there yet, at least not for most majors.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

So, you're saying you don't believe anything that can't be proven with statistics?
I believe in training, life experience, self education and, a college degree that tells me that parents, teachers and society have sold 'youts ' a bill of goods with regards to a college education. I believe too many talented and intelligent 'youts ' have been brainwashed by that same society to believe success equates to a big paycheck and being miserable and selling your soul to the corporate overlords is an accepted given. I believe that science, mathematics and, technical knowledge without direction, other than a paycheck, is little better than no formal education.

I know philosophy or, anything that's not black and white, tends to make folks here nervous and dismissive but, my whole point is education and life (success) is philosophical in nature.

 

[LegendKiller]

So, you're saying you don't believe anything that can't be proven with statistics?
I believe in training, life experience, self education and, a college degree that tells me that parents, teachers and society have sold 'youts ' a bill of goods with regards to a college education. I believe too many talented and intelligent 'youts ' have been brainwashed by that same society to believe success equates to a big paycheck and being miserable and selling your soul to the corporate overlords is an accepted given. I believe that science, mathematics and, technical knowledge without direction, other than a paycheck, is little better than no formal education.

I know philosophy or, anything that's not black and white, tends to make folks here nervous and dismissive but, my whole point is education and life (success) is philosophical in nature.

I don't give a shit what you believe or not. People believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus. Prove it. Show some numbers, show anything, don't give me your feelers, which aren't of any intrinsic value since I don't know you from a hole in the wall.

Prove your asinine idea that college degrees don't matter. Prove that there is no relation.

I love the little semantics game you play though. You attempt to shift the rubric of success to some metaphysical touchy-feely unmeasurable metric that you can somehow make up without any proof.

Fine, measure success by overall happiness. Can you find any statistics that say that people with college degrees are less happy?

Can you find any metric which proves that people with college degrees are worse off, at all? Except for maybe worries about loans, I highly doubt you can find anything.

Just because *you* think that college "brainwashes" people you think it's horrible, yet you fail to acknowledge any of its benefits, such as structured learning and pursuit of information. Even our earliest founding fathers, such as Jefferson, acknowledged that higher learning was best kept for the most intelligent which needed structure to maximize potential, even espousing that society should at least partially pay for that education, hence UVA. I learned that in a history class during my undergrad days and it has stuck with me 12 years later.

College serves many functions and the best and the brightest worldwide come to the USA to seek our colleges out for this very fact. You may want to deny that to but it doesn't make it true. Our institutions of higher education are world renown and your brand of idiocy is doing nothing but diminishing our "youts" ability to compete for those spots.

I see it in the best school districts in this country even in our "shitty" public education system. They are being populated disproportionately with Indians/Chinese/Japanese. my son's pre-K class is filled with them and he's in one of the best schools in my state. The best private school in the area has almost the same ratio. I have a few co-workers from my old job that has kids that go to a top 5 nationally ranked school district, over 50% are foreign.

You may love to pick on our system but it does work in many areas and the smartest in the world know how to play to those areas. Just because you want to not play to that doesn't mean that they are wrong, it merely means you are.

But what this really comes down to is that you are attempting to either justify your own failures in life by knocking down the system which you think has wronged you or you couldn't fit into. Does that mean the system is wrong, or you are? It merely means you are.

What's funny is that they realize this as they take American kid's spots in universities, they educate then go back to India or China and move jobs there, sucking the middle class and trade jobs away. So they really double-fuck us, all because your blind and blithe inattentiveness to reality, they not only steal our education for skilled/white-collar jobs but then steal the blue collar trade jobs along with them. All the while you are singing "hurr dee dooo, brainwashing is what they do" sophomoric screed.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I think it's pretty obvious from your oh so angry rant that you're less happy than most.
I don't have to prove anything. Just because you're unable to define success in any terms other than a paycheck doesn't mean others can't. Your citing the demand for American college degrees as proof of their worth is a tad disingenuous even for you. You go right ahead and search those statistics for meaning in your life. Us "touchy - feely" sorts will be enjoying success while you do.

 

[LegendKiller]

I think it's pretty obvious from your oh so angry rant that you're less happy than most.
I don't have to prove anything. Just because you're unable to define success in any terms other than a paycheck doesn't mean others can't. Your citing the demand for American college degrees as proof of their worth is a tad disingenuous even for you. You go right ahead and search those statistics for meaning in your life. Us "touchy - feely" sorts will be enjoying success while you do.

It's not an "angry rant" but thank for only highlighting the dodge and hustle you attempt to make while trying to undercut everything I wrote. Probably one of the more lame intarweb debate "tactics". As far as me being unhappy, nice try, I love my job.

As I said before, show me any statistic, no matter how you want to measure it, to show that people with college degrees are less "successful" by any measurement you choose. You claim that the only metric of success for college is a paycheck, I counter that if it isn't and you don't like that metric and you think happiness is more important, then prove that people with college degrees are less happy (more successful).

I graduated with a psych undergrad, I am plenty familiar with "touchy feely", but that comes with a dose of statistical scientific measurement.

Others seeking our educational system isn't disengenuous, but your attempt to belittle it by "brainwashing" is. Obviously our educational system has many merits which you seek to overlook because it is convenient for you, this is also why you dodge everything else.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

It's not an "angry rant" but thank for only highlighting the dodge and hustle you attempt to make while trying to undercut everything I wrote. Probably one of the more lame intarweb debate "tactics". As far as me being unhappy, nice try, I love my job.

As I said before, show me any statistic, no matter how you want to measure it, to show that people with college degrees are less "successful" by any measurement you choose. You claim that the only metric of success for college is a paycheck, I counter that if it isn't and you don't like that metric and you think happiness is more important, then prove that people with college degrees are less happy (more successful).

I graduated with a psych undergrad, I am plenty familiar with "touchy feely", but that comes with a dose of statistical scientific measurement.

Others seeking our educational system isn't disengenuous, but your attempt to belittle it by "brainwashing" is. Obviously our educational system has many merits which you seek to overlook because it is convenient for you, this is also why you dodge everything else.

I see, you're not unhappy, you just choose to be rude and obnoxious when debating with someone you disagree with. Did they teach you that in college? You seem to have missed my entire point regarding the nature of success but, perhaps your psych degree taught you to ignore those human traits that can't easily measured? You also seem to believe that something you can point to has more validity than something you can not. Here's a clue, the most important attributes of humanity don't include statistics.

 

[OverVolt]

You'll drive away legendkiller and he's the only one who can do statistics here :0)

 

[Via]

Dave Ramsey is melting into Palin territory. Anyone can rant that stuff. I'll do it right now if you want.

Do you seriously expect me to believe most people looking for a job nowadays look like they're coming off of a stripper pole?

 

[LegendKiller]

I see, you're not unhappy, you just choose to be rude and obnoxious when debating with someone you disagree with. Did they teach you that in college? You seem to have missed my entire point regarding the nature of success but, perhaps your psych degree taught you to ignore those human traits that can't easily measured? You also seem to believe that something you can point to has more validity than something you can not. Here's a clue, the most important attributes of humanity don't include statistics.

No, I just choose to base my opinions on something a bit more measurable and provable than your beliefs. Just because you choose to shift the debate from the OP and say that what you consider success excludes compensation and only includes something you think is unmeasurable doesn't mean that your points are valid, it just means they are not provable.

But even then, you still cannot say that education is not related to success, even under your beliefs. Can you disprove it isn't?

 

[LegendKiller]

You'll drive away legendkiller and he's the only one who can do statistics here :0)

Maybe not the only one who can do statistics but perhaps the only one who can actually read a chart properly .

 

[unokitty]

All of the people represented on the chart above are college graduates. Would you consider all of them successful?




And if college correlates with success, why is the default rate of educational loans increasing?

Just asking.

Uno

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

No, I just choose to base my opinions on something a bit more measurable and provable than your beliefs. Just because you choose to shift the debate from the OP and say that what you consider success excludes compensation and only includes something you think is unmeasurable doesn't mean that your points are valid, it just means they are not provable.

But even then, you still cannot say that education is not related to success, even under your beliefs. Can you disprove it isn't?

I'm pretty sure no one could prove a double negative.
I never said success excludes compensation, just that it is neither the sole or most important aspect. I also did not say education was not related to success. I did say education specifically a college degree does not have a causal relationship with success. I have said what I believe but, you have implied that you believe only what you can point at. Clearly, your college experience has made you unsuccessful in recognizing human experience.

 

[LegendKiller]

I'm pretty sure no one could prove a double negative.
I never said success excludes compensation, just that it is neither the sole or most important aspect. I also did not say education was not related to success. I did say education specifically a college degree does not have a causal relationship with success. I have said what I believe but, you have implied that you believe only what you can point at. Clearly, your college experience has made you unsuccessful in recognizing human experience.

Ok, so let me get this straight, what you consider "success" cannot be measured, in any way, but you are confident in your measurement that a college degree has no measurable relationship to what you measure success as? How the flying fuck through a rolling donut can you say that your measure of success proves that you can't measure success but your measurement is yields 0% measurable causality to what can be measured?

Do you not see how utterly stupid your illogical conflicts make you look?

Clearly my college and professional experience (my education) has yielded me a far more practical perspective than just blind faith in some internet loonie hijacking a thread which was originally started to highlight a moron's beliefs.

 

[LegendKiller]

All of the people represented on the chart above are college graduates. Would you consider all of them successful?




And if college correlates with success, why is the default rate of educational loans increasing?

Just asking.

Uno

How strong is the correlation? The OP premise is that education has no correlation. What the CDR of SLs tells me is that there is a pretty strong correlation but it isn't a perfect correlation.

Do you guys even understand what a correlation is? It's like you think that there is either a correlation of 1 or a correlation of 0 but there cannot be anything in between.

Obviously nobody here was successful in learning statistics.

 

[Kroze]

Why even bother. You are right, education have nothing to do with success. Save your money and do not send your kids to college. Actually, pull them out of school and home school them yourself. You'll save even more money that way. While you're at it, find them a nice decent job at McDonald.Since education have nothing to do with success, they'll be CEO or CFO in no time...or at least the same chance to become one when compared to a college grad.

 

[who?]

So where are the stat.s for people without college degrees?

 

[Exophase]

All of the people represented on the chart above are college graduates. Would you consider all of them successful?

Wow, lumping math and CS majors together isn't very appropriate at all. Most companies won't take those degrees interchangeably for a position. Either the writer of that article doesn't have a great understanding of this or was deliberately trying to shock people by dragging down a field with much lower than expected figures.

 

[unokitty]

Wow, lumping math and CS majors together isn't very appropriate at all. Most companies won't take those degrees interchangeably for a position. Either the writer of that article doesn't have a great understanding of this or was deliberately trying to shock people by dragging down a field with much lower than expected figures.

Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner.

What a person studies has a great impact on their career choices. For example see:

Higher Education Pays: But a Lot More for Some Graduates Than for Others

Based on earnings outcomes, some colleges and universities are producing graduates who earn far less than graduates from other schools and graduates from some institutions earn far more. But a surprising number of colleges and universities in every state produce graduates with roughly identical earnings. This should be encouraging news for the many students across the nation who attend regional comprehensive campuses instead of flagship campuses.

But field of study appears to affect earnings more so than choice of institution. Graduates of some very popular programs (in particular, Psychology) do not earn high wages initially in the job market. Choosing a field of study should be driven by more than just the economic reward—but students should be aware of the potential earnings associated with their choices and factor those considerations into their decisions about where to go, what major to pursue, and how much to borrow.

Full Study

It seems pretty clear that for some people, Higher Education pays off much more than for some other people.

To me, creating a single number and implying that all college degrees are worth the same seems somewhere between naive and disingenuous. Specifically, your degree in Theater or American Studies is never going to be worth the same as a technical degree. (Though, education is just one data point.)

And I would also put forth the proposition that for the 600,000 plus people (cited in the graph presented in my previous post) who have defaulted on their student loans that college may not have been the best choice for them.

Obviously, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But my opinion is that:

For many people college is an excellent choice.
For many other people, college is an okay choice.
And for some people, college is not the best choice at all.

Uno

 

[Noo]

So basically, don't spend $40k a year for a useless liberal degree and whine about how education doesn't equate to success? Shocking. Yep, no correlation at all.

 

[yllus]

There is certainly some relation of education to success. Reams of data back that up. Here is but one example.

Ezra Klein - The unemployment crisis by education

I want to see if the idea of a break by education holds up in the data. I grab U3 unemployment by education level from bureau of labor statistics for those without a high school degree, those with a high school degree only, those with some college but without a bachelor degree, and those with a bachelor degree or above. All data is for people age 25 year and over. This data separated by education only goes back to 1992. Here it is plotted:

 

[OverVolt]

^

Meh, if you can get a degree you can fill out 5 applications a day and change your resume to fit the posting without typos.

If all you can do is pass highschool you probably can't do that. Although if you aren't lazy and just have a highschool degree I don't see why it would matter.

Go get a skill like welding, have you seen those guys? They're all like 60 and too old for that shit .

 

[tmc]

depends on how you define "success" as. is it happiness, money, or both, or something else.

i know a tenured prof who makes about $80k, as well as a owner of gas stations who makes about $150k.

the job types are completely different of course. the latter may have to answer calls or be available even in the middle of the night, handle when an employee calls sick etc.

i would say all depends on the individual.

 

[OverVolt]

depends on how you define "success" as. is it happiness, money, or both, or something else.

i know a tenured prof who makes about $80k, as well as a owner of gas stations who makes about $150k.

the job types are completely different of course. the latter may have to answer calls or be available even in the middle of the night, handle when an employee calls sick etc.

i would say all depends on the individual.

Exactly I don't understand the obsession with Academia.

 

[Tweak155]

Success is related to determination. Whether or not the person went for higher education is irrelevant. If a "successful" person (how can you even measure this?) has higher education, that was just a chosen path in reaching their success. Education guarantees nothing.

Then again, determination guarantees nothing, but with a goal you're far more likely to "succeed".

Measuring success with income is ridiculous.

 

[BoberFett]

But what's the breakeven?

If a non-college educated person makes 30k and the multiple is 2x, then the college educated person makes 60k. Post tax that is a 15k differential (just assuming 50% overall tax rate). The PV of 15k over 40 years assuming a flat 6.25% interest rate (SL rate, non-floating) is $218k. Is that what a 4yr degree costs? Depends on the college, most do not. That's also not assuming working, having parents pay, or having grants/scholarships. It also is an average so majors which require degrees (e.g. engineering) will theoretically make more than the 2x multiple.

Obviously the breakeven point is nearing but it isn't there yet, at least not for most majors.

Don't forget the $60k in lost lifetime income for the four years in college, assuming that same $15k/yr.