3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
- 81
No trouble; just clarifying that either way the value of the labour is *almost* completely external to the skill-set of the person. You can change one arbitrary rule for another, and you get very different, but very real results, with the same labour force and the same employers.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Umm, raised as in 'provided for', financial package?
You damn communist
Holy crap! We agreed about something!
I'm sure it isn't the only thing there Canuck
:beer:CkG
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
- 81
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
I'm sure it isn't the only thing there Canuck
CkG
And one for you:
:beer:
If unions weren't so greedy they'd get more usage from american workers. There is a need but unions take advantage of the worker in ways the employer can't , like using their dues for political purposes without their knowledge or consent.
The days of collective bargaining are over.
I also think that the teacher's union should be dismantled and public education privatized to include the opportunity for religious and secular schools as demand may indicate.
The days of collective bargaining are over.
I also think that the teacher's union should be dismantled and public education privatized to include the opportunity for religious and secular schools as demand may indicate.
Well I am sure everyone seems smart to you Dave. So I can understand why you would have that opinion.
They're smarter becaues they get paid to 'pencil push' while you have to bang a hammer all day to get paid.
The answer is no mystery. It's called greed and everyone suffers from it, some more then others.
It appears to me that alchemize is against anything that doen't put money in his pocket. He is worth it, just ask him.
3
Your education gives you more specialized skills, it doesn't make you smarter. Can you overhaul an engine, build a house, machine a part, etc? Some people just don't like to sit at a desk pushing a pencil, they prefer good honest work.
pushing a pencil (or in my case a keyboard) Isn't honest work?
And most union workers arent "skilled", my sister-in-law works at the Jeep plant, she puts 4 screws in a car, waits for the next one, puts 4 screws in, etc all day long, shes makes more money than me and gets hella better benefits. I think its pretty safe to say my "skills" as a computer engineer are more "valuable" to society than hers (it would take me 30 seconds to learn her job, it would take her years to learn mine)
cKGunslinger
Lifer
- Nov 29, 1999
- 16,408
- 57
- 91
You could just as easily turn that around and ask you, "So you believe because somebody went to an Apprentice School to become some beer-drinking, slack-jawed, Blue-collar Redneck they automatically deserve to make more money that a Computer Science Major who had to study hard through 4 years of advanced math and algorithm design to become a System Architect? What entitles them to that?"
Both extremes are short-sighted and rather demeaning, don't you think. The job market is controlled by supply and demand. If what your Journeyman does is such a necessary and special talent, then he would be paid accordingly for his work, as he could not be easily replaced. We've seen a turn around in the IT industry in the last few years where "pencil pushing suckass Yuppies" have been in high abundance and low demand, hence the massive lay-offs and low pay.
There is nothing wrong with this system. It is very "natural" and self-balancing. What is unnatural are arbitrary restriction on who can work and for how much, based on little more than union demands.
cKGunslinger
Lifer
- Nov 29, 1999
- 16,408
- 57
- 91
Are you implying that those with professional jobs, who may have acheived them through rigorous study and course work, arent capable of "good, honst work?" If so, that's one of the more assinine, arrogant statements I've seen posted here. I leave this office more physically and mentally exhausted each day then I *ever* did digging foundation footers with a shovel during the summer with my dad's construction crew.
Supply and demand. Nothing more.
Of course, I'm sure if all these talented union members go on strike, then they'll truly cripple the company right? Boy - I bet it really galls them when they put managers on the line and productivity goes up. Hence why that CAT union isn't going on strike.
What happened, did I hit a nerve with you guys? I was a machinist for 25 years and I can assure you there wasn't even one person in management who could come out and do what I did for even a minute. I could run every machine they had there. I programed my own CNC lathe or CNC machining center. They had a programer with a special computer and special training to do the programing, but he was so swapped with work for the other CNC's that unless it was a highly complex part they would just have me program those two machines when new jobs came up. Before you jump on "highly complex" and try to shove that down my throat also let me point out that i could program those also, but if it had a lot of math in it, the computer could do it way faster. It was designed to do it. I could run the progaming computer also and ocassionally did when the programmer was on vacation or sick and something needed to be done. Since I had over 7 years experience on each type of machine, I could program almost every job faster and better then him anyway, so I prefered to do it that way. It's funny, I could do what he did and he couldn't even run a machine but he made 30% more then I did and only worked 40 to 45 hours/wk. Try and tell me it's supply and demand?? ROTFLMAO.
I'm now a farmer and I'd be very surprised if one of you can manage a farm. Does that make me smarter then you? Of course not. Neither does having a job pushing a pencil automatically make that person smarter then an electrican or a carpenter. If you think it does, then your just being arrogant. As I said, it is a different skill set. It doesn't automatically mean that I'm not intelligent enough to learn it. My oldest daughter has her Master's and is teaching at a University. I, however am only high school educated.
Train Now, how about "honest work". I was lead man on the floor for a short time. As such my job was to make sure the parts needed the worst by assembly got pushed thru the plant. I was expected to lie on occasion, sometimes to upper management and sometimes to the workers. I hated it that, so I just went back to my machine. I didn't have to lie to anybody about anything. The person who replaced me as Lead Man wasn't near as qualified as I was, but he is now the Plant Manager there, and trust me, he is a very good liar and doesn't mind lying at all.
The same thing applies to a lot of occupations. That is what I meant by "honest work". Maybe you don't run into that problem in your particular case, I don't know? When deadlines or problems come up people have a tendancy to not tell the whole truth. Generally the blue collar jobs don't require any lying to be done. That is what I meant by honest work. Maybe your sister has a high paying job that requires no brains, I don't know? I guess maybe she's smarter then she looks?
cKGunslinger You definetly have an attitude problem.
I'd be willing to bet my son is just as intelligent as you are. He is sitting just across from me studying programing. He is a brain in math. He went to college for one year and aced all his courses, but quit last spring because he feels he can learn it on his own. He said he wasn't really learning anything that he didn't already know. I've tried to tell him that if he doesn't have a degree he more then likey won't get paid enough for his knowledge. He just doesn't seem to care about money and never has. He is a nerd's nerd and has spent almost all of his spare time on a computer since I got one for him back in the fall of '93 when he was 9 years old. The only other thing that got him going was Hockey and he still goes to the rink in the winter to skate and play with the boys.
I have a friend who went to 4 years of college and was an Electrical Engineer. He didn't like working for a big company and he didn't like California. He came back to our home town and is an Electircal contractor. I'll bet he deoesn't even make 1/3 of what you make. His father is now retired and he was the town Doctor. I'd say he's a very intelligent man, but the skill set he is practicing just doesn't pay as well as yours. It doesn't mean he is not every bit as smart as you are, now does it?
As far as I know, the only unions in my area out here in South Dakota is a professional union. The teachers union. Since they have 4 years of college, I wonder why they need a union? What do you have to say about that?
I never said that. I said your education gives you more specialized skills and that doesn't mean your any smarter then the next guy, now does it. Perhaps you should slow up a little and spend more time "comprehendng" what you read before you start flaming someone.
I don't believe for a minute that you leave the office as physically tired after pushing a pencil all day as you did digging footers by hand. Not if you were working as hard as you should have been. I guess since it was your Dad's construction crew, maybe he let you slack off a little? Did he own the business? How is it that your so smart and your Dad's in construction?
I have no doubt that you leave the office mentally drained. When your mentally tired, your body seems tired also. It's not the same as being physically tired in my experience. Your still tired and that is not the point of this discusion anyway. I have experience in both because as a machinist some days I was programing all day long some and some days I was running parts all day long. On the days I was doing brain work I was able to do some simple "honey do" jobs if they didn't require too much concentration and on the days I did all physical labor I would come home and work on books for the farm, planing, etc.
In any case, after a good days work a person is tired. It doesn't matter what you are doing.
I'm now a farmer and I'd be very surprised if one of you can manage a farm. Does that make me smarter then you? Of course not. Neither does having a job pushing a pencil automatically make that person smarter then an electrican or a carpenter. If you think it does, then your just being arrogant. As I said, it is a different skill set. It doesn't automatically mean that I'm not intelligent enough to learn it. My oldest daughter has her Master's and is teaching at a University. I, however am only high school educated.
Train Now, how about "honest work". I was lead man on the floor for a short time. As such my job was to make sure the parts needed the worst by assembly got pushed thru the plant. I was expected to lie on occasion, sometimes to upper management and sometimes to the workers. I hated it that, so I just went back to my machine. I didn't have to lie to anybody about anything. The person who replaced me as Lead Man wasn't near as qualified as I was, but he is now the Plant Manager there, and trust me, he is a very good liar and doesn't mind lying at all.
The same thing applies to a lot of occupations. That is what I meant by "honest work". Maybe you don't run into that problem in your particular case, I don't know? When deadlines or problems come up people have a tendancy to not tell the whole truth. Generally the blue collar jobs don't require any lying to be done. That is what I meant by honest work. Maybe your sister has a high paying job that requires no brains, I don't know? I guess maybe she's smarter then she looks?
cKGunslinger You definetly have an attitude problem.
I'd be willing to bet my son is just as intelligent as you are. He is sitting just across from me studying programing. He is a brain in math. He went to college for one year and aced all his courses, but quit last spring because he feels he can learn it on his own. He said he wasn't really learning anything that he didn't already know. I've tried to tell him that if he doesn't have a degree he more then likey won't get paid enough for his knowledge. He just doesn't seem to care about money and never has. He is a nerd's nerd and has spent almost all of his spare time on a computer since I got one for him back in the fall of '93 when he was 9 years old. The only other thing that got him going was Hockey and he still goes to the rink in the winter to skate and play with the boys.
I have a friend who went to 4 years of college and was an Electrical Engineer. He didn't like working for a big company and he didn't like California. He came back to our home town and is an Electircal contractor. I'll bet he deoesn't even make 1/3 of what you make. His father is now retired and he was the town Doctor. I'd say he's a very intelligent man, but the skill set he is practicing just doesn't pay as well as yours. It doesn't mean he is not every bit as smart as you are, now does it?
As far as I know, the only unions in my area out here in South Dakota is a professional union. The teachers union. Since they have 4 years of college, I wonder why they need a union? What do you have to say about that?
I never said that. I said your education gives you more specialized skills and that doesn't mean your any smarter then the next guy, now does it. Perhaps you should slow up a little and spend more time "comprehendng" what you read before you start flaming someone.
I don't believe for a minute that you leave the office as physically tired after pushing a pencil all day as you did digging footers by hand. Not if you were working as hard as you should have been. I guess since it was your Dad's construction crew, maybe he let you slack off a little? Did he own the business? How is it that your so smart and your Dad's in construction?
I have no doubt that you leave the office mentally drained. When your mentally tired, your body seems tired also. It's not the same as being physically tired in my experience. Your still tired and that is not the point of this discusion anyway. I have experience in both because as a machinist some days I was programing all day long some and some days I was running parts all day long. On the days I was doing brain work I was able to do some simple "honey do" jobs if they didn't require too much concentration and on the days I did all physical labor I would come home and work on books for the farm, planing, etc.
In any case, after a good days work a person is tired. It doesn't matter what you are doing.
cKGunslinger
Lifer
- Nov 29, 1999
- 16,408
- 57
- 91
Holy sh1t! I had to make myself leave my PC for about 30 minutes before responding to this dreck.
What do I have to say about that? I don't think they do need a union. My mother is also a teacher and belongs to the Teacher's Union. She believes in it and I don't. We discuss it and I tell her such. I don't see where you are trying to go with this. ??
Maybe we have both misinterpreted each other's meanings, but I have to admit, your original post seemed to be more than mine.
I'm not sure who is trying to convince you that you are dumber than anyone here, but I assure you it's not me.
WTF? I have an attitude problem? If you had bothered to read my post, you would have realized that I was responding to Red Dawn's comment where he declared all college-educated individuals to be [/i]"pencil pushing suckass Yuppies"[/i], and my post was in mock of his by turning it around and insulting all non-college-educated individuals. I even said I was doing as much in my first line - "You could just as easily turn that around and ask you.." And you have the nerve to accuse me of lacking in reading comprehension? I even declare my claim to be demeaning in the very next line. (see below) In short, you seem to be the one who has missed the point entirely and overreacted to an innocent comment.
Nope, doesn't mean that at all. But then again I have never said or indicated that it did. Why do you assume I have?
What do I have to say about that? I don't think they do need a union. My mother is also a teacher and belongs to the Teacher's Union. She believes in it and I don't. We discuss it and I tell her such. I don't see where you are trying to go with this. ??
You never said that? Perhaps I should quote you exactly: "Some people just don't like to sit at a desk pushing a pencil, they prefer good honest work." I don't think it's too much of a stretch for me to assume that you are implying that sitting at a desk, "pushing a pencil" is not "good, honest work." If you are as capable of the level of reading comprehension as you boast, surely you can see the obvious here. You just lumped an entire group of people into a very derogatory category. If anyone can be accused of flaming, I am afraid it is you.
Believe it or not, it's the truth. My dad was a $9/hr construction worker and I was a $3/hr one. We both busted our ass for 10 hours a day. You can imply and infer what you want from that, but I don't really care. My father is an uneducated laborer who has always workd for someone else, but he's still one of the smartest and hardest working men I know. And he's damn near 70 now.I don't believe for a minute that you leave the office as physically tired after pushing a pencil all day as you did digging footers by hand. Not if you were working as hard as you should have been. I guess since it was your Dad's construction crew, maybe he let you slack off a little? Did he own the business? How is it that your so smart and your Dad's in construction?
Well, according to you previous post, it does matter "what you are doing." Because some prefer good, honest work, as opposed to a desk job. :|
Maybe we have both misinterpreted each other's meanings, but I have to admit, your original post seemed to be more
than mine.As a "pencil pushing suckass yuppie," I would argue that it's a function of skills needed in today's marketplace and the substitutability of relatively unskilled labor. Prior to becoming a ?pencil pushing suckass yuppie," I used to do roofing and built trusses for a few years. I believe I can build and install cabinets, hang eight-square of shingles a day, and frame walls as well as many of these ?journeyman? carpenters. How many journeyman carpenters, though, can crank through logistical non-linear regressions and make decisions based on the results thereof? The world of business, for better of for worse, values different skills and pays a premium for those skills that coincide best with their business model. Am I wrong?[/quote]
No because you included worse in your for better or worse option.
I am speaking from my view point as I see unions in Arizona. I think that the paragraph in bold that I quoted from Gunslinger is right on. I think there are good things and bad things about unions. I don?t agreed with everything union do but the have done more good IME than bad.
In AZ some unions are stronger than others and the unions that are left mostly only do specialized work. Unions in AZ have less than 10% states work. So what work do the have? The majority of the work is industrial, power plants, chip plants, water treatment plants. How do the unions hang on to this work? Contractors come to the union to receive qualified craftsmen and that is what keeps the unions in AZ alive in this right to work state.
So what has unions done for America? They helped establishing the eight-hour day, pass laws ending child labor, helped create minimum wage law and overtime laws.
Now I know unions are not perfect but nothing is and I feel they do more good than bad. People have made good arguments in this tread for both sides but what I think is funny is the put downs. I think that most do it just to strike a nerve. You have to be qualified to do your job, if it?s a white collar or a blue. Its sink or swim and the union will not protect you if you are not qualified to do your job.
Who's overreacting to an innocent comment? You read into that statement what you thought I said. I am saying that being educated gives you a more specialized skill set. It has nothing to do with how smart you are. I've know some very educated people who didn't have enough commen sense to come in out of the rain.
You and Train must be a couple of young pups if you don't know the expression "good, honest work". It is generally interpeted as work that makes you sweat. It is work where you don't have to worry about stepping on someone's toes. You just do your job and don't have to worry about anything else. You both totally misunderstood what I said. My point was that just because you aren't educated doesn't mean your not intelligent or don't have a demanding job.
I strongly disagree with that. Unions are resposible for 40 hour work weeks, paid vacation, paid holidays, overtime pay, and health insurance. Most of these benifits are slowly being taken away. Blood flowed in the streets to get them and they need to be protected somehow. Yes, there is a lot things that happen in a union that shouldn't but the good outweighs the bad.
One person by himself can't do anything, it requires a Union of people to bargain with a company. The businesses today are getting so big that it takes big unions to be effective. I don't like it, but i like the alternative even less. As a farmer, labor unions won't help me a bit, but after working in a non-union shop for 25 years I can say there were times when I wish we had one. I believe besides teachers that other professional people have unions also. It's not just the blue collar workers. Doctors have the AMA and lawyers have the Bar association. They may not call them unions, but that is basically how they work.
HomeBrewerDude
Lifer
- Jan 18, 2001
- 14,465
- 1
- 0
Pliablemoose
Lifer
- Oct 11, 1999
- 25,195
- 0
- 56
Wow, I agree with Moonbeam.
Anti union folks really need to get a POS boss to truly understand how the union can be helpful.
Do a little research on why unions came about & I think you'll find that the factors are in place to make them a necessity again.
Corporations are doing their best to squash them, including spinning the crap out of why they're not needed.
This ad was paid for by unions, the people who brought you the weekend off.
Almost sounds like contract language left over from many decades ago when unions allowed people to get back at big business and government which had treated workers badly for so many years before.
I remember reading an old Steelworkers contract from a now defunct steel mill from the early '50s that had some stuff in there that was simply incredible. Including (but not limited to) a person could not be cited for sleeping/loafing on the job while lying down on a bench (or such) as long as he/she had one foot on the floor. :Q
Them workers were merciless and obviously revengeful.
I remember reading an old Steelworkers contract from a now defunct steel mill from the early '50s that had some stuff in there that was simply incredible. Including (but not limited to) a person could not be cited for sleeping/loafing on the job while lying down on a bench (or such) as long as he/she had one foot on the floor. :Q
Them workers were merciless and obviously revengeful.
Originally posted by: Ferocious
Almost sounds like contract language left over from many decades ago when unions allowed people to get back at big business and government which had treated workers badly for so many years before.
I remember reading an old Steelworkers contract from a now defunct steel mill from the early '50s that had some stuff in there that was simply incredible. Including (but not limited to) a person could not be cited for sleeping/loafing on the job while lying down on a bench (or such) as long as he/she had one foot on the floor. :Q
Them workers were merciless and obviously revengeful.
and the mill no longer exists. I guess those workers really showed the boss.
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