Student throws Koran in toilet, arrested for hate crime

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: piasabird
I have not seen any stories of people kidnapping non christians by christians and chopping off their heads. The Muslim mindset also is a kind of Hive mentality where a lot of muslims accept the extremists or put up with them because they have been taught the same thing in their Mosque.

This is the difference between teaching love and acceptance by Christians and teaching intollerance and hatred and murder by muslims.

Perhaps this is because there aren't any Muslim Superpowers invading Christian 2nd and 3rd world countries and occupying them to further spread their control and influence...

Muslims are not treated well in this world, and that pisses the nutty extremist Islamics off. If Christian fundamentalists were in their position, the same sh1t would be going down.

They don't blow people up and slit their throats because they hate peace-preachers... They never did. It's about imperialistic nations invading their land, controlling their economy's, and otherwise screwing with them in past and present decades.

It's hilarious to see imperialistic assholes claiming to preach love and respect, innocence and victimization.

Go ahead and call me a terrorist sympathizer like a good typical nationalist american, but it's not going to make it true. I've never sided with terrorists, whether they be Christian imperialistic terrorists or Islamic fundamentalist terrorists.

QFT

 

[piasabird]

Muslims kill each other almost as much as they try to kill non-muslims. It is not about religion it is about control, power, and murdering anyone tha opposes the Fascist Regime.

 

[Mxylplyx]

I agree we should work to end all relationships, ie influence, in the middle east. We, starting with the European colonial powers, built a people out of the sand that were obviously happy living in the sand, in order to exploit their resources. We need to stop buying their oil, and let them return to the sand from whence they came.

 

[babylon5]

The two cultures are fundamentally incompatible with each other, especially on freedom of expressions and thoughts.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: babylon5
The two cultures are fundamentally incompatible with each other, especially on freedom of expressions and thoughts.

for proof, see the complete lack of muslims living and prospering in america and other western nations

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Muslims kill each other almost as much as they try to kill non-muslims. It is not about religion it is about control, power, and murdering anyone tha opposes the Fascist Regime.

then why the he|| do you say

Originally posted by: piasabird
I have not seen any stories of people kidnapping non christians by christians and chopping off their heads. The Muslim mindset also is a kind of Hive mentality where a lot of muslims accept the extremists or put up with them because they have been taught the same thing in their Mosque.

This is the difference between teaching love and acceptance by Christians and teaching intollerance and hatred and murder by muslims.

because you are easily and CLEARLY trying to make it a religious issue in your first post (the second one quoted here).

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
I agree we should work to end all relationships, ie influence, in the middle east. We, starting with the European colonial powers, built a people out of the sand that were obviously happy living in the sand, in order to exploit their resources. We need to stop buying their oil, and let them return to the sand from whence they came.

Those people "who were happy to live in the sand" contributed MUCH to our modern day european science that we would have not acheived without the fundamental bases off of which we built and contructed. Your charactericture of "sand people" show some racist tendencies towards Arabs when you speak like that - as well as have an intonation of "white man's burden" when you say that "we" built these people out of the sand" as if these people did not build themselves.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: babylon5
The two cultures are fundamentally incompatible with each other, especially on freedom of expressions and thoughts.

for proof, see the complete lack of muslims living and prospering in america and other western nations

indeed - I'm actually in a sewage drain right now connected to the internet through its series of tubes and pipes (sometimes I have to be careful when it gets clogged, they send horses through to clear it up and its easy to get whisked away) that upon which I plan my domination of America and Western Culture which is, in essence, exactly the same as the fungus patch that I'm sitting on.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: babylon5
The two cultures are fundamentally incompatible with each other, especially on freedom of expressions and thoughts.

for proof, see the complete lack of muslims living and prospering in america and other western nations /sarcasm

indeed - I'm actually in a sewage drain right now connected to the internet through its series of tubes and pipes (sometimes I have to be careful when it gets clogged, they send horses through to clear it up and its easy to get whisked away) that upon which I plan my domination of America and Western Culture which is, in essence, exactly the same as the fungus patch that I'm sitting on.

Edit for clarity

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: babylon5
Politicians here are scared if they don't do what Muslims want.

Sadly, that is a global trend. It's ridiculous.

This was NOT a hate crime - hell, it's hardly a crime at all!

First of all the dude was arrested ... he has not been sentenced yet... Police can arrest you for almost anything these days...

Haven't really looked at a Koran but I would expect it to be much like the bible in size. Could you imagine trying to flush a book of that size down the toilet? That wouldn't be good for the plumbing.... Can you imagine someone coming over to your home trying to flush a book down your toilet? I know this fool is trying to make a statement but he is going about it the wrong way obviously.

I am sure this guy has some mental problems (wouldn't you agree)? Especially since he is trying to do this for obviously a publicity stunt.

I am sure he won't be sentenced with a hate crime but rather in destruction of property to trespassing... Wouldn't you agree that this person should have been charged with something? Two sides to every story...... What side are you on?

I'm gonna agree with the cops on this one.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: babylon5
The two cultures are fundamentally incompatible with each other, especially on freedom of expressions and thoughts.

for proof, see the complete lack of muslims living and prospering in america and other western nations /sarcasm

indeed - I'm actually in a sewage drain right now connected to the internet through its series of tubes and pipes (sometimes I have to be careful when it gets clogged, they send horses through to clear it up and its easy to get whisked away) that upon which I plan my domination of America and Western Culture which is, in essence, exactly the same as the fungus patch that I'm sitting on.

Edit for clarity

i thought i was clear i was being sarcastic as well 😛

unless you really think the internet is a series of tubes and pipes that get unclogged by horse gambling 😉

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: babylon5
The two cultures are fundamentally incompatible with each other, especially on freedom of expressions and thoughts.

for proof, see the complete lack of muslims living and prospering in america and other western nations /sarcasm

indeed - I'm actually in a sewage drain right now connected to the internet through its series of tubes and pipes (sometimes I have to be careful when it gets clogged, they send horses through to clear it up and its easy to get whisked away) that upon which I plan my domination of America and Western Culture which is, in essence, exactly the same as the fungus patch that I'm sitting on.

Edit for clarity

i thought i was clear i was being sarcastic as well 😛

unless you really think the internet is a series of tubes and pipes that get unclogged by horse gambling 😉

Ah, but I thought perhaps your sarcasm was angry sarcasm directed at my post. And the Internet isn't a series of tubes. Al Gore invented it after all, so he used enviro-friendly biodegradable hemp rope. Unfortunately this means that the internet will dissolve at some point in the not too far future, and that you can get high off it.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
I agree we should work to end all relationships, ie influence, in the middle east. We, starting with the European colonial powers, built a people out of the sand that were obviously happy living in the sand, in order to exploit their resources. We need to stop buying their oil, and let them return to the sand from whence they came.

"Built a people out of the sand"?? OH PLEASE, When my people where the greatest civilization of their time preaching social reform, women's rights, social restructuring, charity science ...and much more, your ancestors were neck deep in ignorance, religious extremism, persecution, banning books and literature, female dehumanization and in addition to burning 'witches' alive.

Spare me your knowledge of history. But lets fast forward the clock to just after Word War I, the Arabs & Muslims played a major role in the process of defeating the Ottoman empire for the Allies because they were the major reason the Arab world was stuck 400 years behind everyone else in the world, we were promised unity, we were promised good relations, we were promised this and that and this and that by colonial Europe and what did we get out of it? Divisions! That and in addition to being told that we are a people the got "Built out of the sand" by very knowledgeable individuals such as yourself!

So you want us to "return to the sand"? What are we? Lizards? What makes you feel so high and mighty to look down on millions of other individuals in this condescending and a dehumanizing fashion? On people that you personally don't know jack sht about (besides from what you read in your fairy tales).

"We need to stop buying their oil..." I see you jumped on your high horse and started preaching left and right, let me ask you this, do you practice what you preach? I fckn doubt it! So how about you go back to whatever sewer you 'whence' crawled out off and STAY THERE THIS TIME!

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
http://www.newsday.com/news/lo...7jul27,0,6882662.story
Pardon me, but the Koran is not holy to me. In fact, I'd be more offended if you flushed a copy of the US Constitution. Or Moby Dick. And when I say "more offended", I mean it would annoy me that you're doing it, but that's about it. So how can this stand in a country where separation of church and state is supposed to exist?

Chris Hitchen's take here: http://www.slate.com/id/2171371/

Why would you be more offended by Moby Dick being flushed than the Koran? I don't agree with this either but I was just curious. Also, this action by the student was pretty stupid but it should be allowed. I wonder how this thing got out and become just a news story.

This is just going to cause publicity. Why waste energy on stuff like this when we got bigger issues to deal with? But seriously, why arrest him?

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
I agree we should work to end all relationships, ie influence, in the middle east. We, starting with the European colonial powers, built a people out of the sand that were obviously happy living in the sand, in order to exploit their resources. We need to stop buying their oil, and let them return to the sand from whence they came.

"Built a people out of the sand"?? OH PLEASE, When my people where the greatest civilization of their time preaching social reform, women's rights, social restructuring, charity science ...and much more, your ancestors were neck deep in ignorance, religious extremism, persecution, banning books and literature, female dehumanization and in addition to burning 'witches' alive.

Spare me your knowledge of history. But lets fast forward the clock to just after Word War I, the Arabs & Muslims played a major role in the process of defeating the Ottoman empire for the Allies because they were the major reason the Arab world was stuck 400 years behind everyone else in the world, we were promised unity, we were promised good relations, we were promised this and that and this and that by colonial Europe and what did we get out of it? Divisions! That and in addition to being told that we are a people the got "Built out of the sand" by very knowledgeable individuals such as yourself!

So you want us to "return to the sand"? What are we? Lizards? What makes you feel so high and mighty to look down on millions of other individuals in this condescending and a dehumanizing fashion? On people that you personally don't know jack sht about (besides from what you read in your fairy tales).

"We need to stop buying their oil..." I see you jumped on your high horse and started preaching left and right, let me ask you this, do you practice what you preach? I fckn doubt it! So how about you go back to whatever sewer you 'whence' crawled out off and STAY THERE THIS TIME!

Nice reply to a classic case of white supremacy.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Deudalus

I hope you see the irony of complaining that someone expects everyone else to adapt to their own beliefs while also complaining that they aren't interested in living by your beliefs about what it means to be an American. Yeah, when my ancestors came here they totally threw away their previous lives and beliefs and only two generations later I couldn't tell you a damn thing about what it means to be Swedish or Irish. And yeah, modern day immigrants seem to want to hang on to their culture to a rather extreme extent.

We could argue forever about which is the "better" approach, but you know what, it makes no difference. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression and freedom of religion means that your whining about people not being "American enough" isn't going to progress behind some loud-mouthed xenophobe on the Internet...because people are free to be as American, or as non-American, as they want. That's the whole point of freedom, and quite frankly, the whole point of being an American. Not everyone has to be exactly like you. Don't like it? Tough.

I 100% agree, as long as it doesn't effect their work.

If people are 100% free to do whatever they want then you should see no difference between these things:

A) Muslim cab driver refusing to pick up people carrying alcohol
B) Any other ethnic race refusing to pick up another race of people (be they arabic, black, hispanic, or whatever else)
C) A UPS man who refuses to deliver packages from Wal-Mart because he dislikes their business practices
D) A religious person refusing to answer a subpoena because he believes that only God can judge him

Would you like me to continue going on with this? The point is, being a member of society you have certain things you have to put up with and society has certain things they should put up with from you.

Putting special sinks to wash their feet and hands in prior to prayer in an airport for Muslims, I have no problem with. I think that is a small request that society should grant to them.

However, sometimes people have to bend to accomdate society as well.

True, I will agree that work is not the place for a lot of that...if only because the workplace in general is not your personal podium. Work is for working, and while it's great if you get along with your coworkers and can talk about things not related to work, that's not the point...if things DON'T work out that way, that's just how it goes.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: piasabird
I have not seen any stories of people kidnapping non christians by christians and chopping off their heads. The Muslim mindset also is a kind of Hive mentality where a lot of muslims accept the extremists or put up with them because they have been taught the same thing in their Mosque.

This is the difference between teaching love and acceptance by Christians and teaching intollerance and hatred and murder by muslims.

Obviously teaching hatred and murder isn't an acceptable part of freedom of speech or freedom of religion. And if that's what Muslims were doing, you might have a point. But "Muslims" covers an awfully large number of people, so how about we focus on the individuals and groups who AREN'T playing well with others.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: sirjonk
http://www.newsday.com/news/lo...7jul27,0,6882662.story
Pardon me, but the Koran is not holy to me. In fact, I'd be more offended if you flushed a copy of the US Constitution. Or Moby Dick. And when I say "more offended", I mean it would annoy me that you're doing it, but that's about it. So how can this stand in a country where separation of church and state is supposed to exist?

Chris Hitchen's take here: http://www.slate.com/id/2171371/

Why would you be more offended by Moby Dick being flushed than the Koran? I don't agree with this either but I was just curious. Also, this action by the student was pretty stupid but it should be allowed. I wonder how this thing got out and become just a news story.

This is just going to cause publicity. Why waste energy on stuff like this when we got bigger issues to deal with? But seriously, why arrest him?

Because I've read the Koran, and I've read Moby Dick, and I liked Moby Dick more. But you see my next sentence defined "offended" as "annoyed." I can't be truly offended, in its general definition, by someone flushing a book. Unless I authored it of course.

But I have to disagree that it should be allowed, merely because you have no right to intentionally clog a public toilet. If he want's to burn the book, or destroy it in another harmless way, that should not be illegal.

I was wondering this morning, suppose a person at this school held up a bible, the koran, huck finn, the constitution, and God is Not Great by Chris Hitchens (as close to the atheist bible as it gets), and tore up each one as a demonstration of his rights. A hate crime?

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: beyoku

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
I agree we should work to end all relationships, ie influence, in the middle east. We, starting with the European colonial powers, built a people out of the sand that were obviously happy living in the sand, in order to exploit their resources. We need to stop buying their oil, and let them return to the sand from whence they came.

"Built a people out of the sand"?? OH PLEASE, When my people where the greatest civilization of their time preaching social reform, women's rights, social restructuring, charity science ...and much more, your ancestors were neck deep in ignorance, religious extremism, persecution, banning books and literature, female dehumanization and in addition to burning 'witches' alive.

Spare me your knowledge of history. But lets fast forward the clock to just after Word War I, the Arabs & Muslims played a major role in the process of defeating the Ottoman empire for the Allies because they were the major reason the Arab world was stuck 400 years behind everyone else in the world, we were promised unity, we were promised good relations, we were promised this and that and this and that by colonial Europe and what did we get out of it? Divisions! That and in addition to being told that we are a people the got "Built out of the sand" by very knowledgeable individuals such as yourself!

So you want us to "return to the sand"? What are we? Lizards? What makes you feel so high and mighty to look down on millions of other individuals in this condescending and a dehumanizing fashion? On people that you personally don't know jack sht about (besides from what you read in your fairy tales).

"We need to stop buying their oil..." I see you jumped on your high horse and started preaching left and right, let me ask you this, do you practice what you preach? I fckn doubt it! So how about you go back to whatever sewer you 'whence' crawled out off and STAY THERE THIS TIME!

Nice reply to a classic case of white supremacy.

ya zomg pwnage! :thumbsup: I think for any group of people to think they are better than another is ridiculous~ we are all equals no matter what

 

[OutHouse]

im wondering if somebody in here made a vid of themselves flushing a koran down the toilet and posting it on youtube if they would get banned?

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: piasabird
Most Jews can take a joke, most Christians can take a joke, and even most Mormons can take a joke. How come Muslims can not take a joke? It is the pressure Muslims put on the administration of a school that makes them react. The administration will not react to jews or christians because they are not wanting to chop people's heads of and burn down buildings and make death threats.

Yes, but this is America, people have every right to believe whatever they want...which includes the right to be OFFENDED by whatever they want. And I'd submit that most Christians, Jews, etc, CANNOT take a joke. Maybe it's not their holy book that gets them all riled up, but I'm not sure you can argue that becoming deeply offended by other peoples' gay marriage is any more reasonable than becoming deeply offended by desecration of your holy book. I don't see the Muslims reaction as all that unusual or noteworthy in the context of stupid-ass things people get upset about in this country. The fact that idiots are getting their panties in a bunch over this is pretty funny considering what else goes on in this country that passes by completely without comment. But NO, it's the evil Muslims, so let's all freak out!

That said, this in no way should be illegal...freedom of speech does not end because some jackass gets offended. Whether it's flag burning or flushing a Koran down the toilet, you may not like it, but the 1st amendment basically says "tough shit". You have every right to be offended, you don't have any right to make the government act on that feeling.

I agree that merely causing someone to take offense does not mean the initial action is a hate crime. And it's not illegal to hate someone or some group, even a protected group, or to express such hatred publicly. It IS illegal to commit a crime (duhhh), and if the crime has as a significant component hatred of a protected group, then the action might well be a hate crime.

Speech is generally protected, even hate speech. But certain categories of speech are not: slander and libel are not protected speech; speech intended to cause public disorder ("Fire!" in a crowded theater) is not protected; and speech that expresses the threat of harm is not protected (assault, "an attempt or offer to do violence to another, with or without battery, as by holding a stone or club in a threatening manner," is against the law).

So one has to be careful when evaluating speech. If flushing the Koran down a toilet (even your own Koran and your own toilet) is intended as a threat of violence, it's a crime. And if the threat is motivated by hatred of a protected group (a specific religious group, in this case), the act might well be a hate crime.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: 1prophet
This can be used as precedent if succesful to protect what other religions consider sacred.

Imagine banning music and art because somebodies religion is now offended by it and considers it a hate crime.

Imagine a music and art so sublime it offended no one.

Anything that offends no one bores everyone.

 

[jrenz]

Originally posted by: magomago
we are all equals no matter what

Wow... classic liberal thinking right there. Refusing to accept the realities of life.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: 1prophet
This can be used as precedent if succesful to protect what other religions consider sacred.

Imagine banning music and art because somebodies religion is now offended by it and considers it a hate crime.

Imagine a music and art so sublime it offended no one.

Anything that offends no one bores everyone.

We can get around that by changing the definition of "person"

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: jrenz

Originally posted by: magomago
we are all equals no matter what

Wow... classic liberal thinking right there. Refusing to accept the realities of life.

I guess Islam is a liberal religion xD

I'm not going to hold someone else's life to a lower standard just because they are not the same a) race b) religion c) physical attribute d) "insert some kind of stupid comparison here".

There are other exceptions - jobs is an easy one to point out, people are not all equal ~ an English professor would be able to do engineering.


The realities of life? Look at what he wrote - beyond comparing to Arabs to (as Darkthinker put it) "Lizards" who must "go back to the sand" he ignored the realities of Arabs as a group of people HAVE accomplished and given to society in general. Instead he made up the illusion that "We" were the ones who - as he puts it "built people out of a sand"....instead of going on and elaborating myself, just read what Darkthinker wrote again. Perhaps you also as well have an illusion about life.

 

[Siddhartha]

This issue will be pushed to the US Supreme Court. Before the GWB court I would have bet that it would be considered an example of free speech but with the GWB court I am not sure how it will come out.