Student fights for his free speech rights against school's efforts to silence him

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: Thera

Originally posted by: NesuD

Originally posted by: DaiShan
Sigh, I wish he'd gone to my school, I would have destroyed him in any political/philosophical debate, ah well what can ya do, at least he raised hell.

You missed the point to. His point was to exercise his free speech rights by expressing his ideology in response to one of his teachers who apparently regularly expressed a differing ideology. The Supreme court has ruled that students and teachers have an equal right to freedom of expression regardless of whether they are at school so he decided to test it. His purpose wasn't to debate the ideology it was to demonstrate the hypocritical double standard that seems to exist at his school in regard to his constitutional right to freedom of expression.

Freedom of expression becomes very vague when hate speech is involved. Despite many people claiming the first amendment many courts tend to disagree.

Try yelling "fire" in a movie theater next time you go out (not hate speech)... see how far you can get using your first amendment "rights". 😛

The Supreme Court has been frequently challenged with hate speech and for the most part, has upheld it as protected speech. They are very wary of stating that certain speech is 'valueless' or 'worthless,' especially because it has a chance to begin a slippery slope.

They HAVE, however, been fairly consistent on the type of speech which has the tendency to incite violence or disturbance of the peace; the so-called "fighting words" doctrine. For example, if A says something which B will likely respond to by shooting at him, A doesn't have the right of free speech.

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: TuxDave

It's amazing how many "open minded liberals," in education of all places, silence the opposition claiming hate speech, racism, or simply refusing to let the opposition be heard whenever possible.

Perhaps not 'hate speech' but I'm sure if a couple of Arab students start posting how the Israeli army killed so and so while Jewish students start posting how Palestine killed so and so, it's just gonna turn into a big racial fight.[/quote]

The problem here is that the 'postings' aren't necessarily 'speech' in the sense of a dialogue. It's simply a pissing match, to see who can yell louder than the other. What WOULD be appropriate is to debate it in an open forum, such as in a school newspaper column, letters to the Editor, etc.

Edit: I may not have come across clearly. The problem with the posters this student posted is that they contain no logical or coherent argument at all. They're simply slogans. It's like posting campaign posters which say "Vote Kerry, Bush eats babies," or "Vote Bush, Kerry is eats babies." They contain no information or facts to back up statements whatsoever. THAT is precisely why they cause anger - they come across as ignorantly posted comments or simple insults.

 

[Rainsford]

People in education are far too unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints, for the most part. It doesn't matter if its technical, religious, or political. I go to school in the midwest (Iowa State, actually), which is somewhat conservative as far as colleges go...but they are all for stepping on your rights despite much liberal talk. I admire anyone who's willing to stand up to that, especially in high school where the students are still "kids" without ideas worth listening to.

However, this kid was simply trying to cause trouble. No one who simply has a political point of view would put up a poster suggesting all Muslims treat womeon as property. You know, the whole "Support Islamic property rights" with the women in chains. It doesn't say this only applies to the perverted version of Islam some people seem to have embraced. And he calls people who disagree with him his "enemies". His smug look in those pictures suggests this is exactly the reaction and mess he was hoping for. Just read what he wrote, this isn't about free speech, folks. It's about causing a big scene, gathering attention and beating the administration made up of his "enemies".

I would be more impressed if he had engaged the people he disagreed with (like his teacher) in a well thought out debate using his own words instead of black and white (both literally and figuritivly) posters he printed off of the internet.

 

[dabuddha]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
People in education are far too unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints, for the most part. It doesn't matter if its technical, religious, or political. I go to school in the midwest (Iowa State, actually), which is somewhat conservative as far as colleges go...but they are all for stepping on your rights despite much liberal talk. I admire anyone who's willing to stand up to that, especially in high school where the students are still "kids" without ideas worth listening to.

However, this kid was simply trying to cause trouble. No one who simply has a political point of view would put up a poster suggesting all Muslims treat womeon as property. You know, the whole "Support Islamic property rights" with the women in chains. It doesn't say this only applies to the perverted version of Islam some people seem to have embraced. And he calls people who disagree with him his "enemies". His smug look in those pictures suggests this is exactly the reaction and mess he was hoping for. Just read what he wrote, this isn't about free speech, folks. It's about causing a big scene, gathering attention and beating the administration made up of his "enemies".

I would be more impressed if he had engaged the people he disagreed with (like his teacher) in a well thought out debate using his own words instead of black and white (both literally and figuritivly) posters he printed off of the internet.

After reading what he's written, I'd say his real desired effect was to get people to actually think instead of being close-minded.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: Rainsford
People in education are far too unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints, for the most part. It doesn't matter if its technical, religious, or political. I go to school in the midwest (Iowa State, actually), which is somewhat conservative as far as colleges go...but they are all for stepping on your rights despite much liberal talk. I admire anyone who's willing to stand up to that, especially in high school where the students are still "kids" without ideas worth listening to.

However, this kid was simply trying to cause trouble. No one who simply has a political point of view would put up a poster suggesting all Muslims treat womeon as property. You know, the whole "Support Islamic property rights" with the women in chains. It doesn't say this only applies to the perverted version of Islam some people seem to have embraced. And he calls people who disagree with him his "enemies". His smug look in those pictures suggests this is exactly the reaction and mess he was hoping for. Just read what he wrote, this isn't about free speech, folks. It's about causing a big scene, gathering attention and beating the administration made up of his "enemies".

I would be more impressed if he had engaged the people he disagreed with (like his teacher) in a well thought out debate using his own words instead of black and white (both literally and figuritivly) posters he printed off of the internet.

After reading what he's written, I'd say his real desired effect was to get people to actually think instead of being close-minded.

What a bunch of bull. People in HS can think and be open minded just like anyone else. It's not like there is a shortage of information reaching them. They can turn on the AM radio and hear the same tripe. Or turn on Fox News. His real desired effect was to take some pictures and brag to his online buddies, and to waste some teacher's and administration's time. This is the same bunch that complains about lawyers and activist judges, but runs under ACLU's and USSC's skirt to demand their rights. The same bunch that complains about their posters taken down, but pressures theatre owners not to show F911. The same bunch that spends a lot of time bashing teachers and schools, yet don't want to teach themselves, and then whine because their viewpoints aren't represented by teachers. Well guess what. If very few people of your persuasion go into teaching, very few teachers are going to share your persuasion.

 

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: Rainsford
People in education are far too unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints, for the most part. It doesn't matter if its technical, religious, or political. I go to school in the midwest (Iowa State, actually), which is somewhat conservative as far as colleges go...but they are all for stepping on your rights despite much liberal talk. I admire anyone who's willing to stand up to that, especially in high school where the students are still "kids" without ideas worth listening to.

However, this kid was simply trying to cause trouble. No one who simply has a political point of view would put up a poster suggesting all Muslims treat womeon as property. You know, the whole "Support Islamic property rights" with the women in chains. It doesn't say this only applies to the perverted version of Islam some people seem to have embraced. And he calls people who disagree with him his "enemies". His smug look in those pictures suggests this is exactly the reaction and mess he was hoping for. Just read what he wrote, this isn't about free speech, folks. It's about causing a big scene, gathering attention and beating the administration made up of his "enemies".

I would be more impressed if he had engaged the people he disagreed with (like his teacher) in a well thought out debate using his own words instead of black and white (both literally and figuritivly) posters he printed off of the internet.

After reading what he's written, I'd say his real desired effect was to get people to actually think instead of being close-minded.

What a bunch of bull. People in HS can think and be open minded just like anyone else. It's not like there is a shortage of information reaching them. They can turn on the AM radio and hear the same tripe. Or turn on Fox News. His real desired effect was to take some pictures and brag to his online buddies, and to waste some teacher's and administration's time. This is the same bunch that complains about lawyers and activist judges, but runs under ACLU's and USSC's skirt to demand their rights. The same bunch that complains about their posters taken down, but pressures theatre owners not to show F911. The same bunch that spends a lot of time bashing teachers and schools, yet don't want to teach themselves, and then whine because their viewpoints aren't represented by teachers. Well guess what. If very few people of your persuasion go into teaching, very few teachers are going to share your persuasion.

Are you saying you prefer to have 1 sided "arguements" in schools? Only one side should be presented because very few conservatives go into teaching and the other side should be silenced?

 

[Modeps]

I would have just punched him, told him that he's supposedly a right winger yet hanging signs to vote green and the ACLU is generally left leaning as well. He's doing it for attention.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Modeps
I would have just punched him, told him that he's supposedly a right winger yet hanging signs to vote green and the ACLU is generally left leaning as well. He's doing it for attention.

Go back and read the sign about Voting Green, and also read as to why he appealed to the ACLU (HINT: To see if the ACLU has a certain trait amongst the organization).

 

[skace]

I think this kid missed the point of high school..

 

[Wuffsunie]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
People in education are far too unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints, for the most part. It doesn't matter if its technical, religious, or political. I go to school in the midwest (Iowa State, actually), which is somewhat conservative as far as colleges go...but they are all for stepping on your rights despite much liberal talk. I admire anyone who's willing to stand up to that, especially in high school where the students are still "kids" without ideas worth listening to.

However, this kid was simply trying to cause trouble. No one who simply has a political point of view would put up a poster suggesting all Muslims treat womeon as property. You know, the whole "Support Islamic property rights" with the women in chains. It doesn't say this only applies to the perverted version of Islam some people seem to have embraced. And he calls people who disagree with him his "enemies". His smug look in those pictures suggests this is exactly the reaction and mess he was hoping for. Just read what he wrote, this isn't about free speech, folks. It's about causing a big scene, gathering attention and beating the administration made up of his "enemies".

I would be more impressed if he had engaged the people he disagreed with (like his teacher) in a well thought out debate using his own words instead of black and white (both literally and figuritivly) posters he printed off of the internet.

Exactly what I said. Nice to see I'm not the only one who saw that.

Originally posted by: FallenHero
Are you saying you prefer to have 1 sided "arguements" in schools? Only one side should be presented because very few conservatives go into teaching and the other side should be silenced?

No, dabuddha was saying that conservatives should stop being whiny little b!tches when it comes to their views not being made if they're not willing to actually get in there and do the work themselves. If they want conservative views taught, get in there and teach them themselves. Don't expect other people to do it for them, especially people that disagree with them. Fix the problem, don't just talk and complain about how it never gets done.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: Rainsford
People in education are far too unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints, for the most part. It doesn't matter if its technical, religious, or political. I go to school in the midwest (Iowa State, actually), which is somewhat conservative as far as colleges go...but they are all for stepping on your rights despite much liberal talk. I admire anyone who's willing to stand up to that, especially in high school where the students are still "kids" without ideas worth listening to.

However, this kid was simply trying to cause trouble. No one who simply has a political point of view would put up a poster suggesting all Muslims treat womeon as property. You know, the whole "Support Islamic property rights" with the women in chains. It doesn't say this only applies to the perverted version of Islam some people seem to have embraced. And he calls people who disagree with him his "enemies". His smug look in those pictures suggests this is exactly the reaction and mess he was hoping for. Just read what he wrote, this isn't about free speech, folks. It's about causing a big scene, gathering attention and beating the administration made up of his "enemies".

I would be more impressed if he had engaged the people he disagreed with (like his teacher) in a well thought out debate using his own words instead of black and white (both literally and figuritivly) posters he printed off of the internet.

After reading what he's written, I'd say his real desired effect was to get people to actually think instead of being close-minded.

What a bunch of bull. People in HS can think and be open minded just like anyone else. It's not like there is a shortage of information reaching them. They can turn on the AM radio and hear the same tripe. Or turn on Fox News. His real desired effect was to take some pictures and brag to his online buddies, and to waste some teacher's and administration's time. This is the same bunch that complains about lawyers and activist judges, but runs under ACLU's and USSC's skirt to demand their rights. The same bunch that complains about their posters taken down, but pressures theatre owners not to show F911. The same bunch that spends a lot of time bashing teachers and schools, yet don't want to teach themselves, and then whine because their viewpoints aren't represented by teachers. Well guess what. If very few people of your persuasion go into teaching, very few teachers are going to share your persuasion.

Are you saying you prefer to have 1 sided "arguements" in schools? Only one side should be presented because very few conservatives go into teaching and the other side should be silenced?

School is one sided by definition. The teachers are teaching and the students are listening. It's not a debating society. If conservatives want to go into teaching, they should. But I don't think they should be disruptive, act out, or undermine the teachers' authority, because they don't like the teachers' politics.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: Rainsford
People in education are far too unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints, for the most part. It doesn't matter if its technical, religious, or political. I go to school in the midwest (Iowa State, actually), which is somewhat conservative as far as colleges go...but they are all for stepping on your rights despite much liberal talk. I admire anyone who's willing to stand up to that, especially in high school where the students are still "kids" without ideas worth listening to.

However, this kid was simply trying to cause trouble. No one who simply has a political point of view would put up a poster suggesting all Muslims treat womeon as property. You know, the whole "Support Islamic property rights" with the women in chains. It doesn't say this only applies to the perverted version of Islam some people seem to have embraced. And he calls people who disagree with him his "enemies". His smug look in those pictures suggests this is exactly the reaction and mess he was hoping for. Just read what he wrote, this isn't about free speech, folks. It's about causing a big scene, gathering attention and beating the administration made up of his "enemies".

I would be more impressed if he had engaged the people he disagreed with (like his teacher) in a well thought out debate using his own words instead of black and white (both literally and figuritivly) posters he printed off of the internet.

After reading what he's written, I'd say his real desired effect was to get people to actually think instead of being close-minded.

What a bunch of bull. People in HS can think and be open minded just like anyone else. It's not like there is a shortage of information reaching them. They can turn on the AM radio and hear the same tripe. Or turn on Fox News. His real desired effect was to take some pictures and brag to his online buddies, and to waste some teacher's and administration's time. This is the same bunch that complains about lawyers and activist judges, but runs under ACLU's and USSC's skirt to demand their rights. The same bunch that complains about their posters taken down, but pressures theatre owners not to show F911. The same bunch that spends a lot of time bashing teachers and schools, yet don't want to teach themselves, and then whine because their viewpoints aren't represented by teachers. Well guess what. If very few people of your persuasion go into teaching, very few teachers are going to share your persuasion.

Are you saying you prefer to have 1 sided "arguements" in schools? Only one side should be presented because very few conservatives go into teaching and the other side should be silenced?

School is one sided by definition. The teachers are teaching and the students are listening. It's not a debating society. If conservatives want to go into teaching, they should. But I don't think they should be disruptive, act out, or undermine the teachers' authority, because they don't like the teachers' politics.

Plain and simple, teachers should not teach their politics. As a social studies teacher, you are supposed to show an unbiased representation of both sides of the argument. You are never supposed to reveal your political association to your students in the classroom.

EDIT: Ask any HS Social Studies teacher if what I'm saying is BS or not, because I know at least all the SS teachers in New York state are supposed to follow this policy.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: Rainsford
People in education are far too unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints, for the most part. It doesn't matter if its technical, religious, or political. I go to school in the midwest (Iowa State, actually), which is somewhat conservative as far as colleges go...but they are all for stepping on your rights despite much liberal talk. I admire anyone who's willing to stand up to that, especially in high school where the students are still "kids" without ideas worth listening to.

However, this kid was simply trying to cause trouble. No one who simply has a political point of view would put up a poster suggesting all Muslims treat womeon as property. You know, the whole "Support Islamic property rights" with the women in chains. It doesn't say this only applies to the perverted version of Islam some people seem to have embraced. And he calls people who disagree with him his "enemies". His smug look in those pictures suggests this is exactly the reaction and mess he was hoping for. Just read what he wrote, this isn't about free speech, folks. It's about causing a big scene, gathering attention and beating the administration made up of his "enemies".

I would be more impressed if he had engaged the people he disagreed with (like his teacher) in a well thought out debate using his own words instead of black and white (both literally and figuritivly) posters he printed off of the internet.

After reading what he's written, I'd say his real desired effect was to get people to actually think instead of being close-minded.

What a bunch of bull. People in HS can think and be open minded just like anyone else. It's not like there is a shortage of information reaching them. They can turn on the AM radio and hear the same tripe. Or turn on Fox News. His real desired effect was to take some pictures and brag to his online buddies, and to waste some teacher's and administration's time. This is the same bunch that complains about lawyers and activist judges, but runs under ACLU's and USSC's skirt to demand their rights. The same bunch that complains about their posters taken down, but pressures theatre owners not to show F911. The same bunch that spends a lot of time bashing teachers and schools, yet don't want to teach themselves, and then whine because their viewpoints aren't represented by teachers. Well guess what. If very few people of your persuasion go into teaching, very few teachers are going to share your persuasion.

Are you saying you prefer to have 1 sided "arguements" in schools? Only one side should be presented because very few conservatives go into teaching and the other side should be silenced?

School is one sided by definition. The teachers are teaching and the students are listening. It's not a debating society. If conservatives want to go into teaching, they should. But I don't think they should be disruptive, act out, or undermine the teachers' authority, because they don't like the teachers' politics.

Plain and simple, teachers should not teach their politics. As a social studies teacher, you are supposed to show an unbiased representation of both sides of the argument. You are never supposed to reveal your political association to your students in the classroom.

Says who? If you are a social studies teacher, as long as it's relevant to sociology, you have discretion as to what to teach, because it's a subjective course. Show me where it says you have to teach both sides, or not reveal political association. If you don't like what the teacher is teaching, go teach yourself.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: Rainsford
People in education are far too unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints, for the most part. It doesn't matter if its technical, religious, or political. I go to school in the midwest (Iowa State, actually), which is somewhat conservative as far as colleges go...but they are all for stepping on your rights despite much liberal talk. I admire anyone who's willing to stand up to that, especially in high school where the students are still "kids" without ideas worth listening to.

However, this kid was simply trying to cause trouble. No one who simply has a political point of view would put up a poster suggesting all Muslims treat womeon as property. You know, the whole "Support Islamic property rights" with the women in chains. It doesn't say this only applies to the perverted version of Islam some people seem to have embraced. And he calls people who disagree with him his "enemies". His smug look in those pictures suggests this is exactly the reaction and mess he was hoping for. Just read what he wrote, this isn't about free speech, folks. It's about causing a big scene, gathering attention and beating the administration made up of his "enemies".

I would be more impressed if he had engaged the people he disagreed with (like his teacher) in a well thought out debate using his own words instead of black and white (both literally and figuritivly) posters he printed off of the internet.

After reading what he's written, I'd say his real desired effect was to get people to actually think instead of being close-minded.

What a bunch of bull. People in HS can think and be open minded just like anyone else. It's not like there is a shortage of information reaching them. They can turn on the AM radio and hear the same tripe. Or turn on Fox News. His real desired effect was to take some pictures and brag to his online buddies, and to waste some teacher's and administration's time. This is the same bunch that complains about lawyers and activist judges, but runs under ACLU's and USSC's skirt to demand their rights. The same bunch that complains about their posters taken down, but pressures theatre owners not to show F911. The same bunch that spends a lot of time bashing teachers and schools, yet don't want to teach themselves, and then whine because their viewpoints aren't represented by teachers. Well guess what. If very few people of your persuasion go into teaching, very few teachers are going to share your persuasion.

Are you saying you prefer to have 1 sided "arguements" in schools? Only one side should be presented because very few conservatives go into teaching and the other side should be silenced?

School is one sided by definition. The teachers are teaching and the students are listening. It's not a debating society. If conservatives want to go into teaching, they should. But I don't think they should be disruptive, act out, or undermine the teachers' authority, because they don't like the teachers' politics.

Plain and simple, teachers should not teach their politics. As a social studies teacher, you are supposed to show an unbiased representation of both sides of the argument. You are never supposed to reveal your political association to your students in the classroom.

Says who? If you are a social studies teacher, as long as it's relevant to sociology, you have discretion as to what to teach, because it's a subjective course. Show me where it says you have to teach both sides, or not reveal political association. If you don't like what the teacher is teaching, go teach yourself.

So then you would have no problem with a social studies teacher going on about the glories of Nazi Germany, that Hitler was a hero, etc. as long as she taught the basic jist of WWII?

And yes, as a high school teacher, in New York State, you are not supposed to reveal your political affiliation to your students and are supposed to be as unbiased as possible. Those are the actual guidelines your supposed to follow as a NYS SS teacher.

 

[SuperTool]

If you think the teacher broke school or district rules, then the place to take that up is with the administration. I didn't see an allegation of the teacher breaking the rules on that page, just that he didn't like her choice of materials.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: Rainsford
People in education are far too unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints, for the most part. It doesn't matter if its technical, religious, or political. I go to school in the midwest (Iowa State, actually), which is somewhat conservative as far as colleges go...but they are all for stepping on your rights despite much liberal talk. I admire anyone who's willing to stand up to that, especially in high school where the students are still "kids" without ideas worth listening to.

However, this kid was simply trying to cause trouble. No one who simply has a political point of view would put up a poster suggesting all Muslims treat womeon as property. You know, the whole "Support Islamic property rights" with the women in chains. It doesn't say this only applies to the perverted version of Islam some people seem to have embraced. And he calls people who disagree with him his "enemies". His smug look in those pictures suggests this is exactly the reaction and mess he was hoping for. Just read what he wrote, this isn't about free speech, folks. It's about causing a big scene, gathering attention and beating the administration made up of his "enemies".

I would be more impressed if he had engaged the people he disagreed with (like his teacher) in a well thought out debate using his own words instead of black and white (both literally and figuritivly) posters he printed off of the internet.

After reading what he's written, I'd say his real desired effect was to get people to actually think instead of being close-minded.

What a bunch of bull. People in HS can think and be open minded just like anyone else. It's not like there is a shortage of information reaching them. They can turn on the AM radio and hear the same tripe. Or turn on Fox News. His real desired effect was to take some pictures and brag to his online buddies, and to waste some teacher's and administration's time. This is the same bunch that complains about lawyers and activist judges, but runs under ACLU's and USSC's skirt to demand their rights. The same bunch that complains about their posters taken down, but pressures theatre owners not to show F911. The same bunch that spends a lot of time bashing teachers and schools, yet don't want to teach themselves, and then whine because their viewpoints aren't represented by teachers. Well guess what. If very few people of your persuasion go into teaching, very few teachers are going to share your persuasion.

Are you saying you prefer to have 1 sided "arguements" in schools? Only one side should be presented because very few conservatives go into teaching and the other side should be silenced?

School is one sided by definition. The teachers are teaching and the students are listening. It's not a debating society. If conservatives want to go into teaching, they should. But I don't think they should be disruptive, act out, or undermine the teachers' authority, because they don't like the teachers' politics.

Plain and simple, teachers should not teach their politics. As a social studies teacher, you are supposed to show an unbiased representation of both sides of the argument. You are never supposed to reveal your political association to your students in the classroom.

Says who? If you are a social studies teacher, as long as it's relevant to sociology, you have discretion as to what to teach, because it's a subjective course. Show me where it says you have to teach both sides, or not reveal political association. If you don't like what the teacher is teaching, go teach yourself.

So then you would have no problem with a social studies teacher going on about the glories of Nazi Germany, that Hitler was a hero, etc. as long as she taught the basic jist of WWII?

And yes, as a high school teacher, in New York State, you are not supposed to reveal your political affiliation to your students and are supposed to be as unbiased as possible. Those are the actual guidelines your supposed to follow as a NYS SS teacher.

You see, Supertool has no problem with teachers pressing political views on children because the vast majority of teachers are liberal. If the majority were conservative, he'd be screaming bloody murder.

He doesn't care so long as it's not his bull being gored.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: Rainsford
People in education are far too unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints, for the most part. It doesn't matter if its technical, religious, or political. I go to school in the midwest (Iowa State, actually), which is somewhat conservative as far as colleges go...but they are all for stepping on your rights despite much liberal talk. I admire anyone who's willing to stand up to that, especially in high school where the students are still "kids" without ideas worth listening to.

However, this kid was simply trying to cause trouble. No one who simply has a political point of view would put up a poster suggesting all Muslims treat womeon as property. You know, the whole "Support Islamic property rights" with the women in chains. It doesn't say this only applies to the perverted version of Islam some people seem to have embraced. And he calls people who disagree with him his "enemies". His smug look in those pictures suggests this is exactly the reaction and mess he was hoping for. Just read what he wrote, this isn't about free speech, folks. It's about causing a big scene, gathering attention and beating the administration made up of his "enemies".

I would be more impressed if he had engaged the people he disagreed with (like his teacher) in a well thought out debate using his own words instead of black and white (both literally and figuritivly) posters he printed off of the internet.

After reading what he's written, I'd say his real desired effect was to get people to actually think instead of being close-minded.

What a bunch of bull. People in HS can think and be open minded just like anyone else. It's not like there is a shortage of information reaching them. They can turn on the AM radio and hear the same tripe. Or turn on Fox News. His real desired effect was to take some pictures and brag to his online buddies, and to waste some teacher's and administration's time. This is the same bunch that complains about lawyers and activist judges, but runs under ACLU's and USSC's skirt to demand their rights. The same bunch that complains about their posters taken down, but pressures theatre owners not to show F911. The same bunch that spends a lot of time bashing teachers and schools, yet don't want to teach themselves, and then whine because their viewpoints aren't represented by teachers. Well guess what. If very few people of your persuasion go into teaching, very few teachers are going to share your persuasion.

Are you saying you prefer to have 1 sided "arguements" in schools? Only one side should be presented because very few conservatives go into teaching and the other side should be silenced?

School is one sided by definition. The teachers are teaching and the students are listening. It's not a debating society. If conservatives want to go into teaching, they should. But I don't think they should be disruptive, act out, or undermine the teachers' authority, because they don't like the teachers' politics.

Plain and simple, teachers should not teach their politics. As a social studies teacher, you are supposed to show an unbiased representation of both sides of the argument. You are never supposed to reveal your political association to your students in the classroom.

Says who? If you are a social studies teacher, as long as it's relevant to sociology, you have discretion as to what to teach, because it's a subjective course. Show me where it says you have to teach both sides, or not reveal political association. If you don't like what the teacher is teaching, go teach yourself.

So then you would have no problem with a social studies teacher going on about the glories of Nazi Germany, that Hitler was a hero, etc. as long as she taught the basic jist of WWII?

And yes, as a high school teacher, in New York State, you are not supposed to reveal your political affiliation to your students and are supposed to be as unbiased as possible. Those are the actual guidelines your supposed to follow as a NYS SS teacher.

I would not be fine with a teacher teaching falsehoods or advocating genocide, but if she mentioned that Nazi Germany built the autobahn, the first jet fighter, and first ballistic missile and cruise missile, blitzcrieg, etc, I would not have a problem with that. Also "unbiased" is a subjective term. So the teacher may think she is "unbiased". But if the student thinks she committed misconduct, there are channels to address that. I just think teachers cannot be effective, if their authority is constantly undermined, they are thereatened with "legal action," constantly attacked from the right.

 

Originally posted by: SuperTool
If you think the teacher broke school or district rules, then the place to take that up is with the administration. I didn't see an allegation of the teacher breaking the rules on that page, just that he didn't like her choice of materials.

Because it never presented other sides or viewpoints. The teacher is supposed to teach both and let the students decide for themselves. The BEST teachers I've had are ones that do that...most were liberal, one could tell the way they argued some of the points or questions I asked them after class. However, many refused to come out and say which side they supported. The one teacher I did have that did that refused to hear other sides of arguements, as her ultra liberal side was always correct. When presented with facts or an arguement she could not refute, she deducted points. I refused to kiss her ass, so I dropped the class rather than get an undeserved F.

Was that teacher correct in only teaching one side in a POLITICAL SCIENCE course? I thought in that we were supposed to learn both...and in HS I was somewhat liberal, but I could not stand her teaching only 1 side of an issue.

I hope if you have kids, a teacher starts teaching something you disagree with to your childen (Hitler was a Hero, Stalin was the second coming). Your reaction would be priceless.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: Rainsford
People in education are far too unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints, for the most part. It doesn't matter if its technical, religious, or political. I go to school in the midwest (Iowa State, actually), which is somewhat conservative as far as colleges go...but they are all for stepping on your rights despite much liberal talk. I admire anyone who's willing to stand up to that, especially in high school where the students are still "kids" without ideas worth listening to.

However, this kid was simply trying to cause trouble. No one who simply has a political point of view would put up a poster suggesting all Muslims treat womeon as property. You know, the whole "Support Islamic property rights" with the women in chains. It doesn't say this only applies to the perverted version of Islam some people seem to have embraced. And he calls people who disagree with him his "enemies". His smug look in those pictures suggests this is exactly the reaction and mess he was hoping for. Just read what he wrote, this isn't about free speech, folks. It's about causing a big scene, gathering attention and beating the administration made up of his "enemies".

I would be more impressed if he had engaged the people he disagreed with (like his teacher) in a well thought out debate using his own words instead of black and white (both literally and figuritivly) posters he printed off of the internet.

After reading what he's written, I'd say his real desired effect was to get people to actually think instead of being close-minded.

What a bunch of bull. People in HS can think and be open minded just like anyone else. It's not like there is a shortage of information reaching them. They can turn on the AM radio and hear the same tripe. Or turn on Fox News. His real desired effect was to take some pictures and brag to his online buddies, and to waste some teacher's and administration's time. This is the same bunch that complains about lawyers and activist judges, but runs under ACLU's and USSC's skirt to demand their rights. The same bunch that complains about their posters taken down, but pressures theatre owners not to show F911. The same bunch that spends a lot of time bashing teachers and schools, yet don't want to teach themselves, and then whine because their viewpoints aren't represented by teachers. Well guess what. If very few people of your persuasion go into teaching, very few teachers are going to share your persuasion.

Are you saying you prefer to have 1 sided "arguements" in schools? Only one side should be presented because very few conservatives go into teaching and the other side should be silenced?

School is one sided by definition. The teachers are teaching and the students are listening. It's not a debating society. If conservatives want to go into teaching, they should. But I don't think they should be disruptive, act out, or undermine the teachers' authority, because they don't like the teachers' politics.

Plain and simple, teachers should not teach their politics. As a social studies teacher, you are supposed to show an unbiased representation of both sides of the argument. You are never supposed to reveal your political association to your students in the classroom.

Says who? If you are a social studies teacher, as long as it's relevant to sociology, you have discretion as to what to teach, because it's a subjective course. Show me where it says you have to teach both sides, or not reveal political association. If you don't like what the teacher is teaching, go teach yourself.

So then you would have no problem with a social studies teacher going on about the glories of Nazi Germany, that Hitler was a hero, etc. as long as she taught the basic jist of WWII?

And yes, as a high school teacher, in New York State, you are not supposed to reveal your political affiliation to your students and are supposed to be as unbiased as possible. Those are the actual guidelines your supposed to follow as a NYS SS teacher.

I would not be fine with a teacher teaching falsehoods or advocating genocide, but if she mentioned that Nazi Germany built the autobahn, the first jet fighter, and first ballistic missile and cruise missile, blitzcrieg, etc, I would not have a problem with that. Also "unbiased" is a subjective term. So the teacher may think she is "unbiased". But if the student thinks she committed misconduct, there are channels to address that. I just think teachers cannot be effective, if their authority is constantly undermined, they are thereatened with "legal action," constantly attacked from the right.

Who are you to say that anything that I said about Germany is a falsehood? It's subjective, just like how she's a big Chomsky fan and probably teaches a load advocating Chomsky.

And I'm sorry, but a teacher should be able to tell if they're heavily biased or not. A little bias here and there isn't really a problem, but any teacher whether they swing too far to the left or right is a huge problem.

And are you kidding me, constantly being attacked from the right? Schools are more often attacked from the left for not being liberal enough in terms of clubs, group, and other activities that are school sponsored. Not to mention freedom of speech and expression cases brought up by the left.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Amused
You see, Supertool has no problem with teachers pressing political views on children because the vast majority of teachers are liberal. If the majority were conservative, he'd be screaming bloody murder.

He doesn't care so long as it's not his bull being gored.

I don't think politics really sticks to most students of that age. And to the small fraction that do care about politics, they are as likely to rebel against those views as go along with them.
I would preffer that conservatives go in and teach instead of trying to undermine other teachers they perceive as liberal. There are institutes full of conservative analysts and social scholars, yet none of them seem to have the time of day for teaching, but time to spare when it comes to bashing teachers.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: Rainsford
People in education are far too unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints, for the most part. It doesn't matter if its technical, religious, or political. I go to school in the midwest (Iowa State, actually), which is somewhat conservative as far as colleges go...but they are all for stepping on your rights despite much liberal talk. I admire anyone who's willing to stand up to that, especially in high school where the students are still "kids" without ideas worth listening to.

However, this kid was simply trying to cause trouble. No one who simply has a political point of view would put up a poster suggesting all Muslims treat womeon as property. You know, the whole "Support Islamic property rights" with the women in chains. It doesn't say this only applies to the perverted version of Islam some people seem to have embraced. And he calls people who disagree with him his "enemies". His smug look in those pictures suggests this is exactly the reaction and mess he was hoping for. Just read what he wrote, this isn't about free speech, folks. It's about causing a big scene, gathering attention and beating the administration made up of his "enemies".

I would be more impressed if he had engaged the people he disagreed with (like his teacher) in a well thought out debate using his own words instead of black and white (both literally and figuritivly) posters he printed off of the internet.

After reading what he's written, I'd say his real desired effect was to get people to actually think instead of being close-minded.

What a bunch of bull. People in HS can think and be open minded just like anyone else. It's not like there is a shortage of information reaching them. They can turn on the AM radio and hear the same tripe. Or turn on Fox News. His real desired effect was to take some pictures and brag to his online buddies, and to waste some teacher's and administration's time. This is the same bunch that complains about lawyers and activist judges, but runs under ACLU's and USSC's skirt to demand their rights. The same bunch that complains about their posters taken down, but pressures theatre owners not to show F911. The same bunch that spends a lot of time bashing teachers and schools, yet don't want to teach themselves, and then whine because their viewpoints aren't represented by teachers. Well guess what. If very few people of your persuasion go into teaching, very few teachers are going to share your persuasion.

Are you saying you prefer to have 1 sided "arguements" in schools? Only one side should be presented because very few conservatives go into teaching and the other side should be silenced?

School is one sided by definition. The teachers are teaching and the students are listening. It's not a debating society. If conservatives want to go into teaching, they should. But I don't think they should be disruptive, act out, or undermine the teachers' authority, because they don't like the teachers' politics.

Plain and simple, teachers should not teach their politics. As a social studies teacher, you are supposed to show an unbiased representation of both sides of the argument. You are never supposed to reveal your political association to your students in the classroom.

Says who? If you are a social studies teacher, as long as it's relevant to sociology, you have discretion as to what to teach, because it's a subjective course. Show me where it says you have to teach both sides, or not reveal political association. If you don't like what the teacher is teaching, go teach yourself.

So then you would have no problem with a social studies teacher going on about the glories of Nazi Germany, that Hitler was a hero, etc. as long as she taught the basic jist of WWII?

And yes, as a high school teacher, in New York State, you are not supposed to reveal your political affiliation to your students and are supposed to be as unbiased as possible. Those are the actual guidelines your supposed to follow as a NYS SS teacher.

I would not be fine with a teacher teaching falsehoods or advocating genocide, but if she mentioned that Nazi Germany built the autobahn, the first jet fighter, and first ballistic missile and cruise missile, blitzcrieg, etc, I would not have a problem with that. Also "unbiased" is a subjective term. So the teacher may think she is "unbiased". But if the student thinks she committed misconduct, there are channels to address that. I just think teachers cannot be effective, if their authority is constantly undermined, they are thereatened with "legal action," constantly attacked from the right.

Who are you to say that anything that I said about Germany is a falsehood? It's subjective, just like how she's a big Chomsky fan and probably teaches a load advocating Chomsky.

And I'm sorry, but a teacher should be able to tell if they're heavily biased or not. A little bias here and there isn't really a problem, but any teacher whether they swing too far to the left or right is a huge problem.

And are you kidding me, constantly being attacked from the right? Schools are more often attacked from the left for not being liberal enough in terms of clubs, group, and other activities that are school sponsored. Not to mention freedom of speech and expression cases brought up by the left.

Biased is a relative term, because it's relative to someone else's position. Case in point, Fox thinks it's unbiased, fair and balanced. 😀

 

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Amused
You see, Supertool has no problem with teachers pressing political views on children because the vast majority of teachers are liberal. If the majority were conservative, he'd be screaming bloody murder.

He doesn't care so long as it's not his bull being gored.

I don't think politics really sticks to most students of that age. And to the small fraction that do care about politics, they are as likely to rebel against those views as go along with them.
I would preffer that conservatives go in and teach instead of trying to undermine other teachers they perceive as liberal. There are institutes full of conservative analysts and social scholars, yet none of them seem to have the time of day for teaching, but time to spare when it comes to bashing teachers.

Thats not always true. Some universities and I'm sure some HS as well don't hire because some are "too conservative" or "too white male." When they can't even get into the profession, there is a problem. Its indoctrination happening at the most basic level. Kids may not remember specific points that are being made, but they come to accept the liberal view as ALWAYS being right, because if teacher says its true, it must be. By the time they can think on their own, its too late for some. They blindly follow the left without ever having heard the rights arguements. If they were given the choice earlier, and given facts on both sides, then picked the left, fine. That means that they made an informed decision...but teaching kids in an almost socialist environment is like only watching Anime and saying "I have seen every kind of cartoon out there, and Anime is the best."

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Amused
You see, Supertool has no problem with teachers pressing political views on children because the vast majority of teachers are liberal. If the majority were conservative, he'd be screaming bloody murder.

He doesn't care so long as it's not his bull being gored.

I don't think politics really sticks to most students of that age. And to the small fraction that do care about politics, they are as likely to rebel against those views as go along with them.
I would preffer that conservatives go in and teach instead of trying to undermine other teachers they perceive as liberal. There are institutes full of conservative analysts and social scholars, yet none of them seem to have the time of day for teaching, but time to spare when it comes to bashing teachers.

Thats not always true. Some universities and I'm sure some HS as well don't hire because some are "too conservative" or "too white male." When they can't even get into the profession, there is a problem. Its indoctrination happening at the most basic level. Kids may not remember specific points that are being made, but they come to accept the liberal view as ALWAYS being right, because if teacher says its true, it must be. By the time they can think on their own, its too late for some. They blindly follow the left without ever having heard the rights arguements. If they were given the choice earlier, and given facts on both sides, then picked the left, fine. That means that they made an informed decision...but teaching kids in an almost socialist environment is like only watching Anime and saying "I have seen every kind of cartoon out there, and Anime is the best."

But they are bombarded from both sides. There is more to life than school. There are plenty of sources of information aside from school. I really don't remember being political either in school or in college, until the impeachment which pissed me off big time and got me thinking about my politics. Also, if there is discrimination against someone for being too conservative in social studies or other subjective subjects, then I don't approve of that. I don't have a problem with right leaning texts in US government, Literature, or English classes. Although if my biology teacher wanted to teach creationism, I would demand a different teacher, because I think it would be a waste of my time. I don't think this is a major problem though since not that many conservatives are interested in teaching in public schools. I know one teacher who voted for Bush and Dole, but he will be voting for Kerry because of the No Child Left Behind.

 

Originally posted by: SuperTool

But they are bombarded from both sides. There is more to life than school. There are plenty of sources of information aside from school. I really don't remember being political either in school or in college, until the impeachment which pissed me off big time and got me thinking about my politics. Also, if there is discrimination against someone for being too conservative in social studies or other subjective subjects, then I don't approve of that. I don't have a problem with right leaning texts in US government, Literature, or English classes. Although if my biology teacher wanted to teach creationism, I would demand a different teacher, because I think it would be a waste of my time. I don't think this is a major problem though since not that many conservatives are interested in teaching in public schools. I know one teacher who voted for Bush and Dole, but he will be voting for Kerry because of the No Child Left Behind.

It's good that you payed attention. You can probably make an informed choice about such matters. Now take a look at your average High school student...Hell, even your average college student. They don't want to read the front page...they skip past to the sports section or entertainment...anything but front page news. HS students and many college students don't base their opinion on what they read about or see in the news, they base it off of what they are told.

If a teacher tells a group of 14 year olds that Bush has done nothing but evil things for the past 4 years, and presents evidence detailing the evil things he has done, how can these average teenagers prove her wrong? They probably cant, nor do they have the will to. Instead, they take it as fact, and repeat what is said later on "My science teacher said blah blah blah." Or "my social studies teacher proved to me that...". They take it as fact, when it may not be a fact. Then when the news, if they ever watch it, says something that contradicts what their teacher or professor said, they will do 1 of two things: Automattically assume the news is incorrect, as they are not the "professionals" the teachers are or 2) Go back and ask said teacher about it, where they will spout even more falsehoods.

I don't like the fact that too few teenagers pay attention to the news. I think parents should help to inform their kids of the events in the world...but the socialist system that is set up is not going to help matters. We can at least present BOTH sides of the argument.