Student fights for his free speech rights against school's efforts to silence him

[NesuD]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
It's kinda lame. At least he could have come up with his own material. He needs to go to a website and print posters that others created to express "himself." Seems to me like his is just a mouthpiece, which I suppose is his right.
Then he goes crying to the ACLU when his rights are infringed. Also, if there are "liberal" posters or movie posters, he should be able to put up his, within reason, but I don't think he should be allowed to put 500 posters all over the place where others will have to clean them up. If every student puts up 500 posters, that will be almost a million posters, which will become a nuisance and or a fire hazard.

Looks like you completely miised the point. His ideology isn't the issue to him. His purpose wasn't to necessarily promote his beliefs so much as to demonstrate the leftist hypocrisy that was infringing his right to express them for no reason other than they did not agree with him. 500 posters certainly seems excessive but in the end he wasn't allowed to put up any. "Then he goes crying to the ACLU when his rights are infringed." whats wrong with that? Are you saying that only people who you agree with are allowed to ask the ACLU for help when their constitutional rights are infringed? You seem to think in double standards. The constitution applies to everyone regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, or political ideology.

 

[NesuD]

Originally posted by: jumpr
He's causing a disturbance in his school and posting flyers without administration approval, which when I was in high school, was against the rules.

School isn't a place for idealogues to spout their rhetoric - that goes for both this kid and his teacher. It's a plce to learn. He needs to vent his ideas in the proper forum, not in the hallways and classrooms of his high school. Form a club and meet during scheduled times if you wish, but don't shove your ideas about politics in others' faces, especially in school.

The Supreme Court didn't see it that way.

1969 case Tinker v. DesMoines Independent School District Chief Justice Warren, in his majority opinion overturning the school district's action of suspending the students, wrote that "neither teachers nor students shed their rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate ... In our system, state-operated schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism ... School officials cannot suppress expressions of feeling with which they do not wish to contend."

"neither teachers nor students shed their rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate" The chief justice of the supreme court put the students rights on an equal footing with the teachers. So if the teachers are actively expressing their ideology as we all know many do the students have just as much right to express theirs regardless of whether the teachers or admins agree with it or not.

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: MadCowDisease
What you say may be true, but you're still a shade short of what the website goes to say. They believe that war is the only way which peace can be achieved and liberty be spread to the ends of the world.

War IS an ugly thing, but as long as nations and leaders exist that detest freedom, sometimes it is the only way to secure a lasting peace. Most leftist anti-war protesters and pundits don't understand this. They state that this use of force is always unnecessary -- that war, ANY war, is never good. Some of them, born into the luxury of American freedom, believe that liberty can exist passively, that somehow the world's natural state will always settle into utopian harmony.

...That is why they defend Iraq instead of America, and the Palestinian "resistance" instead of Israel.

between you and that website, I have enough straw men to build a scarecrow army.

OK, here's my take on these things. Not this website specifically, but every website, TV channel, book, magazine, etc. out there.

Everything will have a political message. You don't have to buy it. However, just because something comes from a source which carries a political message, doesn't mean the data is 100% wrong and should be instantly thrown out. CONSIDER the source, by all means...but also consider the possibility that the data is accurate.
ANY idiot can take unbiased data and draw a correct conclusion. Part of being intelligent human beings is the ability to filter data, extract the truth, and drawn an unbiased conclusion based on several sources of (perhaps biased) data.

If you instantly ignore everything that contrasts with your political, social, or moral views, how will you be able to examine yourself and see if you have a logically sound viewpoint? If you automatically form the weakest of an opponent's arguments into a straw man, ignoring the rest, how will you be able to see where your own argument falls short? Instead, refute the STRONGEST of their arguments...that shows that you have a strong position.

THIS IS ALL COMMON SENSE, PEOPLE

What you posted really is common sense - I don't see why you bothered to post it. Furthermore, I fail to see how you believe that I addressed only that website's weakest points. The first sentence of the mission statement IS the core of the group's beliefs. If, the core, as you imply, is one of their weakest arguments, then where is the strong argument that they present? I merely addressed a claim which I see as inherently flawed. Moreover, if you had bothered to pay attention to the remainder of the post you will see that I address the issue of war as a whole and how I don't necessarily believe in its effectiveness - thereby addressing a major component of the mission statement, if not the entire document.

Edit: We've gone quite off-topic. The issue, I think, is not the website but rather the alleged freedom of students to verbalize political opinion in a school setting - or 1st amendment rights as a whole. Don't take this edit as a opportunity to say that I am trying to skirt any issues.

 

[NesuD]

right madcow the topic is dealing with a freedom of expression issue not the merits of a political ideology.

 

[DaiShan]

Sigh, I wish he'd gone to my school, I would have destroyed him in any political/philosophical debate, ah well what can ya do, at least he raised hell.

 

[NesuD]

Originally posted by: DaiShan
Sigh, I wish he'd gone to my school, I would have destroyed him in any political/philosophical debate, ah well what can ya do, at least he raised hell.

You missed the point to. His point was to exercise his free speech rights by expressing his ideology in response to one of his teachers who apparently regularly expressed a differing ideology. The Supreme court has ruled that students and teachers have an equal right to freedom of expression regardless of whether they are at school so he decided to test it. His purpose wasn't to debate the ideology it was to demonstrate the hypocritical double standard that seems to exist at his school in regard to his constitutional right to freedom of expression.

 

[SuperTool]

OMG, hypocritical double standard? He is a student, she is a teacher.
Also, is her taking down his posters also a protected form of political expression? Once he puts those posters on the wall, they aren't his property anymore.

 

[AFB]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
OMG, hypocritical double standard? He is a student, she is a teacher.
Also, is her taking down his posters also a protected form of political expression? Once he puts those posters on the wall, they aren't his property anymore.

So are you saying that when he puts his bag in the locker that its not his ?

Make sure you have your facts straight and know a lot about the cause your fighting for. If you're unprepared your enemy will try and trick you and twist your words around. Be ready to retaliate back with facts.

I do find this a little bit frightening. Enemy ? WTF ? Just because someone else has a differenty view than you doesn't mean they're your enemy. It's not a fvckin war.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Let me guess, he is gonna go on the website and ask for a cliche filled poster to counter F911? 😀
Collected and levelheaded individuals don't look at their schools as "the enemy." I think there is too much self expression and not enough learning going on in schools. I frankly don't think schools are the place for political fights.

How long has it been since you were in school? My high school was a freaking socialist training ground.

 

[AFB]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Let me guess, he is gonna go on the website and ask for a cliche filled poster to counter F911? 😀
Collected and levelheaded individuals don't look at their schools as "the enemy." I think there is too much self expression and not enough learning going on in schools. I frankly don't think schools are the place for political fights.

How long has it been since you were in school? My high school was a freaking socialist training ground.

Not here, mine is very conservitive. <--DFW, Texas

 

Most HS and Colleges seem to be VERY liberal, to the point of stomping on the First Amendment and the US constitution in the name of "Diversity" and other such bullsh!t.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: FallenHero
Most HS and Colleges seem to be VERY liberal, to the point of stomping on the First Amendment and the US constitution in the name of "Diversity" and other such bullsh!t.

Yep. It's one thing I'm not looking forward to. Hopefully community college won't be so bad. It's two years to gear up for University.

I don't normally think about politics, unless someone throws it in my face or asks me my opinion.

I'll need some anti-hippy gear for school...

 

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: FallenHero
Most HS and Colleges seem to be VERY liberal, to the point of stomping on the First Amendment and the US constitution in the name of "Diversity" and other such bullsh!t.

Yep. It's one thing I'm not looking forward to. Hopefully community college won't be so bad. It's two years to gear up for University.

I don't normally think about politics, unless someone throws it in my face or asks me my opinion.

I'll need some anti-hippy gear for school...

You will need more than anti-hippy gear. Take note of the number of liberal school sponsered events/speakers/organizations, and then compare that to conservative ones. I'm willing to bet 10:1 ratio.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: FallenHero
You will need more than anti-hippy gear. Take note of the number of liberal school sponsered events/speakers/organizations, and then compare that to conservative ones. I'm willing to bet 10:1 ratio.

I'm hoping that here in MS it won't be so bad. It wasn't horrible at Ole Miss or anything when I went there, but you could tell they were there.

Of course, we get hippies protesting outside of where I work.

:disgust:

 

[UglyCasanova]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: FallenHero
You will need more than anti-hippy gear. Take note of the number of liberal school sponsered events/speakers/organizations, and then compare that to conservative ones. I'm willing to bet 10:1 ratio.

I'm hoping that here in MS it won't be so bad. It wasn't horrible at Ole Miss or anything when I went there, but you could tell they were there.

Of course, we get hippies protesting outside of where I work.

:disgust:

La Tech is about as conservative as you can get. 😛

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: UglyCassanova
La Tech is about as conservative as you can get. 😛

Well, if Louisiana didn't have such messed up residency laws, that might be an option! 😉

 

[OokiiNeko]

Title of this thread is misleading.

Principal agreed the kid could pass out flyers to any students who wanted them. Seems like a reasonable principal to me. Far from quashing this kid's freedom of speech.

 

[43st]

Originally posted by: NesuD

Originally posted by: DaiShan
Sigh, I wish he'd gone to my school, I would have destroyed him in any political/philosophical debate, ah well what can ya do, at least he raised hell.

You missed the point to. His point was to exercise his free speech rights by expressing his ideology in response to one of his teachers who apparently regularly expressed a differing ideology. The Supreme court has ruled that students and teachers have an equal right to freedom of expression regardless of whether they are at school so he decided to test it. His purpose wasn't to debate the ideology it was to demonstrate the hypocritical double standard that seems to exist at his school in regard to his constitutional right to freedom of expression.

Freedom of expression becomes very vague when hate speech is involved. Despite many people claiming the first amendment many courts tend to disagree.

Try yelling "fire" in a movie theater next time you go out (not hate speech)... see how far you can get using your first amendment "rights". 😛

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: OokiiNeko
Title of this thread is misleading.

Principal agreed the kid could pass out flyers to any students who wanted them. Seems like a reasonable principal to me. Far from quashing this kid's freedom of speech.

Yes, but the principle was not going to let him express himself at all until he threw the law at him.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Thera

Originally posted by: NesuD

Originally posted by: DaiShan
Sigh, I wish he'd gone to my school, I would have destroyed him in any political/philosophical debate, ah well what can ya do, at least he raised hell.

You missed the point to. His point was to exercise his free speech rights by expressing his ideology in response to one of his teachers who apparently regularly expressed a differing ideology. The Supreme court has ruled that students and teachers have an equal right to freedom of expression regardless of whether they are at school so he decided to test it. His purpose wasn't to debate the ideology it was to demonstrate the hypocritical double standard that seems to exist at his school in regard to his constitutional right to freedom of expression.

Freedom of expression becomes very vague when hate speech is involved. Despite many people claiming the first amendment many courts tend to disagree.

Try yelling "fire" in a movie theater next time you go out (not hate speech)... see how far you can get using your first amendment "rights". 😛

Nothing the boy is saying is "hate speech."

 

[jpeyton]

what a tard

 

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Thera

Originally posted by: NesuD

Originally posted by: DaiShan
Sigh, I wish he'd gone to my school, I would have destroyed him in any political/philosophical debate, ah well what can ya do, at least he raised hell.

You missed the point to. His point was to exercise his free speech rights by expressing his ideology in response to one of his teachers who apparently regularly expressed a differing ideology. The Supreme court has ruled that students and teachers have an equal right to freedom of expression regardless of whether they are at school so he decided to test it. His purpose wasn't to debate the ideology it was to demonstrate the hypocritical double standard that seems to exist at his school in regard to his constitutional right to freedom of expression.

Freedom of expression becomes very vague when hate speech is involved. Despite many people claiming the first amendment many courts tend to disagree.

Try yelling "fire" in a movie theater next time you go out (not hate speech)... see how far you can get using your first amendment "rights". 😛

Nothing the boy is saying is "hate speech."

It's amazing how many "open minded liberals," in education of all places, silence the opposition claiming hate speech, racism, or simply refusing to let the opposition be heard whenever possible.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Thera

Originally posted by: NesuD

Originally posted by: DaiShan
Sigh, I wish he'd gone to my school, I would have destroyed him in any political/philosophical debate, ah well what can ya do, at least he raised hell.

You missed the point to. His point was to exercise his free speech rights by expressing his ideology in response to one of his teachers who apparently regularly expressed a differing ideology. The Supreme court has ruled that students and teachers have an equal right to freedom of expression regardless of whether they are at school so he decided to test it. His purpose wasn't to debate the ideology it was to demonstrate the hypocritical double standard that seems to exist at his school in regard to his constitutional right to freedom of expression.

Freedom of expression becomes very vague when hate speech is involved. Despite many people claiming the first amendment many courts tend to disagree.

Try yelling "fire" in a movie theater next time you go out (not hate speech)... see how far you can get using your first amendment "rights". 😛

Nothing the boy is saying is "hate speech."

It's amazing how many "open minded liberals," in education of all places, silence the opposition claiming hate speech, racism, or simply refusing to let the opposition be heard whenever possible.

Perhaps not 'hate speech' but I'm sure if a couple of Arab students start posting how the Israeli army killed so and so while Jewish students start posting how Palestine killed so and so, it's just gonna turn into a big racial fight.

 

[dabuddha]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: OokiiNeko
Title of this thread is misleading.

Principal agreed the kid could pass out flyers to any students who wanted them. Seems like a reasonable principal to me. Far from quashing this kid's freedom of speech.

Yes, but the principle was not going to let him express himself at all until he threw the law at him.

But the fact of the matter is that he did let him pass out flyers. We don't know exactly what the principal's intention was and in fact, he actually listened to the kid and didn't just say no immediately like other principles would have.

 

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Perhaps not 'hate speech' but I'm sure if a couple of Arab students start posting how the Israeli army killed so and so while Jewish students start posting how Palestine killed so and so, it's just gonna turn into a big racial fight.

They have every right to express their viewpoints as well. It's up to the students to escalate the fighting...putting up differing viewpoints is a good thing. It makes you look at all sides of the issue, even the ones you don't agree with. If the students of either side decide to make race an issue, then yes, I would say that it would then become a problem. However, all too often now people are accusing others of racism and hate speech where none exist. And despite what the media and many liberals claim, the right to not be offended DOES NOT EXIST.