Strikeforce: Alistair Overeem vs Fabricio Werdum [ June 18, 2011 aka THIS SATURDAY ]

[TheNinja]

Brett Rogers was top 10 around the time ( before and after ) Fedor fought him, and is definitely top 20.

It's not that Alistair managed to beat Rogers, it's how easily he managed to do it.

True about the ranking, I still contend that Rogers was an easy matchup for Overeem b/c Rogers is a standup fighter and Overeem is light years ahead in standup. Reem has been doing it his whole life, Rogers has like 3 years under his belt and was a tire salesman before that (a story they always play up on TV). Werdum is a different beast b/c of his sub game. He's not going to want to stand with Overeem.

That Duffee fight was awesome though. I though Duff Man was going to poop his pants before the fight even started. Lasted what...like 20 seconds.

 

[wheresmybacon]

Like I said, just because YOU CAN'T DO IT doesn't mean other people are more gifted genetically. Ever done any heavy lifting? I'm guessing you haven't.


I don't disagree with you that his recent MMA career has pit him against some weaker competition, but it isn't like he really struggled either. He has walked through the weak competition just like you would expect from someone of his caliber.

Good article on this subject here:

Maximum Muscular Potential of Drug-Free Athletes - http://www.leangains.com/2010/12/maximum-muscular-potential.html

I like your assertion that we haven't done "heavy lifting" just because we question the legitimacy of Overeem's sudden and drastic change in physique. Not sure what one has to do with the other.

Greg Anderson, is that you?

 

[QueBert]

Brock is not more legit than Overeem. Brock is still a rookie as far as I am concerned. If Werdum wins I will be surprised.

In MMA Brock's absolutely the more accomplished fighter, Brock's worst opponent was Herring, Herring's better than any MMA fighter Roidereem has beat. Roidistar has proven nothing in MMA except he can only beat has beens, never beens or dudes who were in their MMA infancy. Roider obviously has a shit ton more fights, but he's never faced 2 dudes worth talking about in a row. Every fight Brock's has in the UFC was against either a former champ, a current champ or an interim champ. If R.R. beats Werdum then he deserves some MMA respect. But as it stands he's an elite kick boxer who has proven next to nothing in MMA.

And if he loses Saturday, which I suspect he will. It'll be back to fighting cans in Japan. Hummm maybe Goodridge will give him a fight lol.


And to everyone who's saying his size is due to genetics, look at pics of him back when Liddell fought him and look at him today. Only way that was from Genetics would be if Genetics is a brand of steroids

 

[bfdd]

Good article on this subject here:

Maximum Muscular Potential of Drug-Free Athletes - http://www.leangains.com/2010/12/maximum-muscular-potential.html

I like your assertion that we haven't done "heavy lifting" just because we question the legitimacy of Overeem's sudden and drastic change in physique. Not sure what one has to do with the other.

Greg Anderson, is that you?

Alright then if you think that's the only possible source out there. I have a question for you. How big are your arms? How tall are you? What's your waist size? How often do you work out and what do you do? How much do you weigh? Like I said you do realize there are people out there who are SIGNIFICANTLY more athletic genetically than others. Considering Overeem is from Suriname and all of the other crazy fools I've seen from that place and considering its history. It doesn't surprise me he is that gifted.

Also, I would like to add once you get like that it isn't even close to as hard to keep it.

In MMA Brock's absolutely the more accomplished fighter, Brock's worst opponent was Herring, Herring's better than any MMA fighter Roidereem has beat. Roidistar has proven nothing in MMA except he can only beat has beens, never beens or dudes who were in their MMA infancy. Roider obviously has a shit ton more fights, but he's never faced 2 dudes worth talking about in a row. Every fight Brock's has in the UFC was against either a former champ, a current champ or an interim champ. If R.R. beats Werdum then he deserves some MMA respect. But as it stands he's an elite kick boxer who has proven next to nothing in MMA.

And if he loses Saturday, which I suspect he will. It'll be back to fighting cans in Japan. Hummm maybe Goodridge will give him a fight lol.


And to everyone who's saying his size is due to genetics, look at pics of him back when Liddell fought him and look at him today. Only way that was from Genetics would be if Genetics is a brand of steroids

Brock has gift genetics and a smothering wrestling style. He did take the belt and he did embarrass a few professional fighters. I fail to see how this doesn't make him a rookie? The dude has shown rookie mistakes in EVERY SINGLE FIGHT. Gift title shots after going 1-1 in the UFC and beating Herring aren't exactly the types of things that make someone "legit". His beating Mir, which should have been obvious to anyone who knows anything about Frank Mir, and his beating Carwin are really his most legit wins and even then both of those guys are incredibly overrated.

Overeem is more legit because he has experience, I have admitted already once in this thread that his competition has been lacking. There is one thing though, he hasn't struggled in recent years with a single one of them. He walked through them exactly as we would expect from a top tier fighter. Overeem has his flaws, but right now I believe he is the scariest person in the HW division.

 

[TheNinja]

In MMA Brock's absolutely the more accomplished fighter, Brock's worst opponent was Herring, Herring's better than any MMA fighter Roidereem has beat. Roidistar has proven nothing in MMA except he can only beat has beens, never beens or dudes who were in their MMA infancy. Roider obviously has a shit ton more fights, but he's never faced 2 dudes worth talking about in a row. Every fight Brock's has in the UFC was against either a former champ, a current champ or an interim champ. If R.R. beats Werdum then he deserves some MMA respect. But as it stands he's an elite kick boxer who has proven next to nothing in MMA.

And if he loses Saturday, which I suspect he will. It'll be back to fighting cans in Japan. Hummm maybe Goodridge will give him a fight lol.


And to everyone who's saying his size is due to genetics, look at pics of him back when Liddell fought him and look at him today. Only way that was from Genetics would be if Genetics is a brand of steroids

I agree with some of what you say regarding Overeem. He hasn't really faced top competition and when he has, he's lost. Brock is still a rookie in MMA terms, but he's got years and years of wrestling which is huge in American MMA.

Also, don't give me the whole Reem of 5 years ago at 205. The guy even said himself that he basically didn't eat and starved himself to get to 205. He didn't jump from 205 to 260 overnight either. When he fought 205 he probably weighed 225230. He then decided to go to HW. If you ever started lifting weights you make absolutely huge gains the first year or two. Someone with an unlimited budget, as much food as he wants, unlimited gym time, trainers, etc. could easily gain 20 pounds in 1 year, especially if he was underweight before. Look at his brother...sure he is like 235 or 240 but ripped...and Alistair says his brother eats like crap. It's good genetics. I do think he's probably taking some interesting supplements, but don't throw around accussations as truth.

Oh, back to the fights. I do think Werdum is a tougher challenge than people give him credit for. I still expect The Reem to win though.

 

[wheresmybacon]

Alright then if you think that's the only possible source out there. I have a question for you. How big are your arms? How tall are you? What's your waist size? How often do you work out and what do you do? How much do you weigh? Like I said you do realize there are people out there who are SIGNIFICANTLY more athletic genetically than others. Considering Overeem is from Suriname and all of the other crazy fools I've seen from that place and considering its history. It doesn't surprise me he is that gifted.

Also, I would like to add once you get like that it isn't even close to as hard to keep it

After suffering a series of humiliating defeats in 2006 and 2007, Reem gained something like 50 pounds of shredded muscle in ~3ish years, going from a lanky guy with no power to one of the most physically imposing heavyweights in all of MMA. Gosh, how did that happen?! His superior genetics, of course!

...and Barry Bonds, Brett Boone, Brady Anderson, and all of the other skinny guys who went from career ground ball slappies to musclebound moon-shot hitters in 90s were all genetic freaks too...

Whatever dude. Believe what you want.

 

[Whisper]

I've worked out with a variety of largely-amateur power lifters and bodybuilders of varying capabilities over the past ~12 years, and will definitely say that genetics plays a huge role. That being said, it's not always terribly difficult to tell if someone's been on a cycle. I wouldn't at all be surprised to hear that Overeem has used PEDs based on his size/build, but that's of course not saying it's a definitive truth.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

I agree with some of what you say regarding Overeem. He hasn't really faced top competition and when he has, he's lost. Brock is still a rookie in MMA terms, but he's got years and years of wrestling which is huge in American MMA.

Also, don't give me the whole Reem of 5 years ago at 205. The guy even said himself that he basically didn't eat and starved himself to get to 205. He didn't jump from 205 to 260 overnight either. When he fought 205 he probably weighed 225230. He then decided to go to HW. If you ever started lifting weights you make absolutely huge gains the first year or two. Someone with an unlimited budget, as much food as he wants, unlimited gym time, trainers, etc. could easily gain 20 pounds in 1 year, especially if he was underweight before. Look at his brother...sure he is like 235 or 240 but ripped...and Alistair says his brother eats like crap. It's good genetics. I do think he's probably taking some interesting supplements, but don't throw around accussations as truth.

Oh, back to the fights. I do think Werdum is a tougher challenge than people give him credit for. I still expect The Reem to win though.

Just to be clear are you saying Overeem never lifted before 3 years ago? You can't give him credit for noob gains when he had already been a professional athlete for years.

edit: Overeem weighed in at 224 for a heavyweight fight in 11/2007. It's simply not possible for an already trained athlete to gain 30lbs in 18 months without steroids.

 

[wheresmybacon]

Just to be clear are you saying Overeem never lifted before 3 years ago? You can't give him credit for noob gains when he had already been a professional athlete for years.

Exactly. It's not like these guys ate donuts and sat on the couch all day. They were professional athletes already. When you're at that advanced stage of fitness, gains like Reem and even more recently, Frank Mir, have shown are going to raise some eyebrows.

 

[bfdd]

After suffering a series of humiliating defeats in 2006 and 2007, Reem gained something like 50 pounds of shredded muscle in ~3ish years, going from a lanky guy with no power to one of the most physically imposing heavyweights in all of MMA. Gosh, how did that happen?! His superior genetics, of course!

...and Barry Bonds, Brett Boone, Brady Anderson, and all of the other skinny guys who went from career ground ball slappies to musclebound moon-shot hitters in 90s were all genetic freaks too...

Whatever dude. Believe what you want.

He did NOT gain 50 lbs of shredded muscle you fucking idiot. He used to fight at 205, a weight class in which he would cut about 10-20 lbs to fight in. Overeem was NATURALLY about 220-230 when he was younger fighting at 205. He is now a solid 250-260 ripped. He put on about 30lbs of muscle in 3 years. That is nothing unheard of, only idiots like you who think you can tell someone juices by looking at them think it's awkward.

It's amazing genetics. He is from Suriname, there are a lot of people of African heritage from Suriname that are MASSIVE. It was a slave colony ffs, they bred them to be bigger and stronger.

Like I said, I am not saying he didn't do them. I just think it's absurd to say he did simply because of how he looks.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

He did NOT gain 50 lbs of shredded muscle you fucking idiot. He used to fight at 205, a weight class in which he would cut about 10-20 lbs to fight in. Overeem was NATURALLY about 220-230 when he was younger fighting at 205. He is now a solid 250-260 ripped. He put on about 30lbs of muscle in 3 years. That is nothing unheard of, only idiots like you who think you can tell someone juices by looking at them think it's awkward.

It's amazing genetics. He is from Suriname, there are a lot of people of African heritage from Suriname that are MASSIVE. It was a slave colony ffs, they bred them to be bigger and stronger.

Like I said, I am not saying he didn't do them. I just think it's absurd to say he did simply because of how he looks.

It's an amazing coincidence that no human on earth ever demonstrated these amazing genetics until the after the development of steroids in the 1930's.

 

[WaTaGuMp]

This thread will most likely provide more excitement than the fights.

 

[Woosta]

After suffering a series of humiliating defeats in 2006 and 2007, Reem gained something like 50 pounds of shredded muscle in ~3ish years, going from a lanky guy with no power to one of the most physically imposing heavyweights in all of MMA. Gosh, how did that happen?! His superior genetics, of course!

...and Barry Bonds, Brett Boone, Brady Anderson, and all of the other skinny guys who went from career ground ball slappies to musclebound moon-shot hitters in 90s were all genetic freaks too...

Whatever dude. Believe what you want.

Huh? Alistair had power. Infact, he was winning many of his fights until he gassed, then he got KO'd/TKO'd by guys like Kharitonov and Chuck Liddell. He was cutting and starving himself, not weight training to make 205. He was also in his early 20s.

 

[bfdd]

It's an amazing coincidence that no human on earth ever demonstrated these amazing genetics until the after the development of steroids in the 1930's.

Nor did people have all the advanced work out techniques or technologies that exist today. Also, like I said Overeem comes from slave stock. African slaves were selectively bred to make them bigger and stronger. Not everyone is equal genetically, some of us are genetically predisposed to have bigger muscles and an easier time attaining/keeping them.

 

[Woosta]

This thread will most likely provide more excitement than the fights.

As expected in any Woosta thread.

 

[Woosta]

Nor did people have all the advanced work out techniques or technologies that exist today. Also, like I said Overeem comes from slave stock. African slaves were selectively bred to make them bigger and stronger. Not everyone is equal genetically, some of us are genetically predisposed to have bigger muscles and an easier time attaining/keeping them.

Some people are just natural freaks.

Dunkers like T-Dub or Werm don't do any sort of weight training, though they do put in the hard work.

Great Genetics + hard work is what makes the impossible possible. Only a few out of thousands/millions are privileged to have great genes, though.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Nor did people have all the advanced work out techniques or technologies that exist today. Also, like I said Overeem comes from slave stock. African slaves were selectively bred to make them bigger and stronger. Not everyone is equal genetically, some of us are genetically predisposed to have bigger muscles and an easier time attaining/keeping them.

Interesting that his genes suddenly kicked in right after he lost 4/5 fights. That was pretty convenient.

 

[bfdd]

Some people are just natural freaks.

Dunkers like T-Dub or Werm don't do any sort of weight training, though they do put in the hard work.

Great Genetics + hard work is what makes the impossible possible. Only a few out of thousands/millions are privileged to have great genes, though.

Most of us waste them

 

[wheresmybacon]

He did NOT gain 50 lbs of shredded muscle you fucking idiot. He used to fight at 205, a weight class in which he would cut about 10-20 lbs to fight in. Overeem was NATURALLY about 220-230 when he was younger fighting at 205. He is now a solid 250-260 ripped. He put on about 30lbs of muscle in 3 years. That is nothing unheard of, only idiots like you who think you can tell someone juices by looking at them think it's awkward.

It's amazing genetics. He is from Suriname, there are a lot of people of African heritage from Suriname that are MASSIVE. It was a slave colony ffs, they bred them to be bigger and stronger.

Like I said, I am not saying he didn't do them. I just think it's absurd to say he did simply because of how he looks.

So which is it? Genetics or drugs? Or now you're just interested in name calling because you don't even know what you're arguing?

Until we all start carrying around portable piss tests and our favorite athletes oblige us by filling them @ our request, we're going to have to use our eyes and our minds to try and determine if what we're seeing is real. And from this thread it's evident that you're ill-equipped to much determining with the latter. Good day sir.

 

[bfdd]

Interesting that his genes suddenly kicked in right after he lost 4/5 fights. That was pretty convenient.

You mean those 3 fights where he fought some of the best in the world and lost at 205? Those light heavyweight bouts? What part of my earlier posts did you not understand about him fighting at 205? The guy was NATURALLY a 220-230lb guy, he was CUTTING ass loads of weight to try and make 205. He STOPPED doing those things and decided it would just be better to get bigger instead of trying to get smaller. THAT IS THE DRASTIC CHANGE YOU SEE. That's it.

 

[Woosta]

Interesting that his genes suddenly kicked in right after he lost 4/5 fights. That was pretty convenient.

Doesn't it make sense to re-evaluate your training regimen if you go on a losing streak?

Alistair explains his situation on his documentary which you can watch @ http://www.thereem.com/

I think Episode 3 of the 2nd season has his explanation on the situation back in 05-06.

 

[bfdd]

So which is it? Genetics or drugs? Or now you're just interested in name calling because you don't even know what you're arguing?

Until we all start carrying around portable piss tests and our favorite athletes oblige us by filling them @ our request, we're going to have to use our eyes and our minds to try and determine if what we're seeing is real. And from this thread it's evident that you're ill-equipped to much determining with the latter. Good day sir.

I don't fucking know which it is and to be honest I don't really care. I have no issue with PEDs in sports, I think everyone should do drugs if they believe it will increase their performance. What I am saying is that it is not that crazy for him to have got that big without them. It is completely possible and in fact others have put on far more weight in quicker amounts of time. Look at Frank Mir going from like a pudgy 220 or whatever to a solid ripped 250 in like what, 6 or 7 months?

Also, if you want to use his lost to Sergei against him you're a fucking idiot. They are 1-1, not to mention Sergei is a certified BAMF.

 

[Woosta]

Agreed, it's absolutely possible to put on 30 lbs in 18 months without roiding/taking PEDs.

While I'm not a professional athlete, earlier this year when I was sick I got down to 153 lbs ( from 160 lbs ). I am bulking up to 190 and I'm currently at 170 lbs. If I get to 190 ( and I will ), I'll have put on 35-37 lbs in less than 12 months.

Pics for reference:

Was at around 162ish

172ish

Didn't take pics when I was 153 so you'll have to take my word on it.. I was 155 lbs in November of 2010 @ the beginning of my journal..

When I get to the mid 170s and 180s and so on, I'll take more pics.

 

[wheresmybacon]

Huh? Alistair had power. Infact, he was winning many of his fights until he gassed, then he got KO'd/TKO'd by guys like Kharitonov and Chuck Liddell. He was cutting and starving himself, not weight training to make 205. He was also in his early 20s.

He's finished a lot of guys, but in the pre-Ubereem fights I've seen it was a lot more technique than brute force. If ever there was a guy who was the prototypical MT knees and elbows guy in MMA it was Reem. I think also his mini jerry curl also had a positive effect on his punching power.

 

[Woosta]

There have been countless other people who've bulked up 30 lbs in less than 18 months, go on bodybuilding.com and look at the bulk threads.

If these ordinary people have the ability to bulk up 30 lbs in 18 months, you don't think its out of the ordinary that a person with great genetics can bulk up 30 in less than 18?!?!??!?!?!?!

In addition, with the amount of resources and vast information available on the 'nets, in addition to easy access to stuff like whey protein, it makes it all the more possible.