Stop teaching cursive writing in schools ?

[Zeeky Boogy Doog]

Originally posted by: InflatableBuddha

Your ignorance is appalling. Thinking outside the realm of the English-speaking world for just a moment, consider that Kanji, Mandarin, and Arabic, among other modern languages, all contain curved characters similar in principle to cursive English. Do you think those children are not learning valuable developmental skills when they learn to properly form those characters by hand?

Cursive does not take an onerous amount of classroom time to learn, and as some of the links in this thread have shown, it enhances visual-motor and perception skills, among others.

I'm sorry to hear that your high school experience was such a joke. Perhaps you are just bitter that you haven't been properly challenged intellectually. I hope that your college education is more stimulating and teaches you some modesty and tact.

I have to tip my hat to that, you definitely smashed my argument as I stated it, but I hope you at least read my next post that much more concisely explains my argument, and I certainly hope you read my other posts, sounds like you did tough. Just because I'm terrible at examples does not invalidate my point though, cursive is currently simply one METHOD of promoting this developmental and intellectual growth in the child's brain, this does not by any means necessarily imply that it is the best method, and I believe this thread has proven that virtually no one uses it. It is a hindrance to those who do not use it, and despite its use being beneficial to some, that does not imply that there is no other option to create a script or use an existing one that has similar benefits.

It seemed that cursive is better for dyslexics because it creates a unit of the word rather than a collection of units. Then any script that provides the same continuity should prove just as effective. Further, it seems that the speed is gained from the same continuity, the shape of the letters is designed to flow smoothly, however, why not make a few simple changes to keep a stronger correlation to the letters between print and this new cursive script, make a cursive that is legible to those who do not use it. Why teach worthless, outdated information when we are perfectly capable of doing something much more useful and universal with the same time? I'm not trying to slave the children over a pile of work instead of their handwriting lessons, I'm simply arguing our methods are outdated.

As for being bitter, I certainly have to agree, but still no one has addressed my actual proposal.

 

[kevbot]

I can't believe some of you say you can't read cursive. Surely you mean you can't read crappy handwriting. Poor penmanship is just that. If you can read ordinary printed English, then you should be able to handle cursive. I personally don't use cursive, but I also don't have to write anything to anyone that my computer can't handle.

I am sorry if I am being an asshole, but if English is your first language, and you can't read it in any form, then get the education you need.

I am more the lurker than poster, but many of you sound like maximum dolts. Cursive is not brain surgery and reading and writing it is not especially difficult.

 

[kevbot]

Instead of editing my previous post, I would like to point out that i am at least as big of a dumb shit as anyone. i just think that cursive writing isn't too terribly hard to figure out. I just want to be fairly happy when I die. That is all.

 

[EGGO]

Cursive is so freaking slow for me to use compared to my handwriting which is neater, anyway.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca

Originally posted by: zinfamous
retarded.

yet another nail in the coffin of illiteracy that we are bestowing amongst our texting, brain-dead spawn.

Because killing off an unnecessary and outdated second writing system that more often than not is hard to read is totally connected to people not learning grammar properly. :roll:

yeah. I'm guessing you + English = suck?

:roll:

grammar and language are all intertwined. don't be so fucking daft.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: brandonbull
Sounds like a bunch of Twitter babies. Boo hoo. I can't take time out of my busy to use cursive because I must get back to sitting in front of a computer 20 hours a day to play WoW.

:thumbsup:

this + budget cuts to education is where it comes from. fucking adolescents. when did we give them a say?

oh yeah...the 80s.

Now fucking Vin Diesel is a star and we make multi-million dollar movies based on worthless cartoon storylines that I grew up with (transformers).

look, they sucked then, OK? you remember them as "cool."

I do too!

But If you're the type to look back at any of that, as "good," actually watch the animated TF movie, recent M Bay travesty as quality film-making (the kind of shit we should be rewarding with millions upon millions of dollars) then you have no say in the future education and overall progress of human culture, get it?

/rant

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Zeeky Boogy Doog

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
Cursive is not faster at all when you first learn it. It takes years of practice for you to get better.

Agreed, anything perfected takes time. I think your issue with inability to read average cursive is... your issue.

We can't drop items from the curriculum just because it takes time. Otherwise, given the same argument about typing on keyboards, we might as well dump trig, algebra, and calculus, since the computers do that for us as well. Most people on here hardly use math at all, except for simple add, sub, div, and mult. That doesn't mean it wasn't worthwhile to learn it in school. Most of what we learn, we never use directly in life. But it wrinkles our brain; makes us think more efficiently.

That's a horrible argument. What builds off of the ability to write in cursive? Reading cursive. What builds off of simple math? Everything else in math. Cursive script is exactly as useful as it's prevalence in society, which is quickly approaching 0.

Cursive is an incredibly useless skill, at best you might get hired over someone else with the exact same skill set minus the ability to write in cursive, but no one will ever hire you for knowing how to write well in cursive. The things math is teaching is analogous to grammar, not cursive, learning Roman Numerals would be an apt comparison, which has been almost completely phased out.

I was forced to write in cursive until 6th grade, the first day of 7th grade I found out we were no longer required to write in cursive and I immediately stopped. I can only imagine how much good knowledge could have been gained if we had not had to learn cursive and instead had focused more on grammar. I stopped reading the papers of fellow students during in class workshops in seventh grade, it was painful, there is literally no way to tell a person how poorly they write. You could immediately tell when a parent had checked over a paper before bringing it to class. Hell, that's almost exclusively how I learned to write, English class was a joke. Actually, scratch that, school was a joke. I did almost ZERO homework at home and quite literally no studying all the way through high school and graduated with a 3.9 something (4.0 with weighted AP classes, w00t?).

I want to emphasize this for those who have been out of school for some time, I opened a book at home to study twice throughout all of high school, once for a Spanish test, which amounted to me writing different verb tenses for 20 minutes and growing bored, and once for one of my AP World History tests, which actually meant I had the book open for 15 minutes while I watched TV (I got a 96% on that test, I remember this quite clearly because I almost couldn't believe it, other people in the class were studying for hours and barely got C's, I watched Seinfeld and got an A...). My AP World History class was also the only good class I really had through high school, it was the only one requiring any sort of critical thinking, which almost everyone in the class failed at miserably. THIS is what we need to be focusing on. School as a whole is failing, and it's not because we are or are not teaching cursive, our schools suck. We need to teach the things cursive teaches our brains to do without teaching cursive, it is, within itself, an incredibly worthless skill.

I have more to rant about, but I'll just get even more pissed so I won't... I'm 20 BTW.

This is only because you think in math.

you don't read much outside of Sci Fi, I take it?

It seems your argument is based only on a math-based mentality. I can understand that. But the mistake you make is attributing that to the sole reality in this world, which it certainly is not. Math is another system of understanding.

yes they are related, roman numerals are somewhat relevant, but we never went far enough with them: asians learn numbers by naming them 10+5, 20+7 (not 15, not 27), and they excel at math, numeral thinking. Roman numerals approach this, but in our language, mask the method, the understanding, so it never quite achieves this rationality.

...for one thing, language came first. Study a little Sanscrit, look into Symatics: patterns created from sand formations influenced by sound vibration. learn how human language originated. understand that art exists in everything we see: in language, in our script, in our science and in our math. in numbers and words and how they interact.

we start teaching kids that only numbers matter, that no rules can ever be broken...then we begin training a class of dull, mindless automotons. we won't progress. life will suck.

we'll all sound like.....you.


put than in your pipe, you anti-hippie.


yes, you're 20, and it shows.

and I haven't written in cursive since the 5th grade. Do I think it was a worthwhile skill?

yep.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Zeeky Boogy Doog

[...mindless drivel]
Edit: Reminder, my incoherent rambling was enough to graduate within the top 5% of my class of about 500, I'm not saying my rambling is good, just that it's better than 95% of my class was able to produce. Our schools suck, and no amount of pounding the same shit into different heads is going to fix it.

so you graduated top 5% in a class of 500 retards.


...what are you trying to prove?

 

[frostedflakes]

I guess I just don't understand why some people have such a hard-on for cursive handwriting...

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Fuck cursive. I can read cursive Arabic, English, and Hebrew, and can only write cursive Hebrew of the three. It's weird because NOBODY prints Arabic, and I absolutely cannot write cursive Arabic. Hebrew on the other hand, is impossible to print by hand unless you're a fucking calligraphist; it's hard, especially for someone who didn't grow up with it.

As for English, I don't think anybody writes in cursive nowadays, neither does anyone "print" as a computer or typewriter would. My handwriting is arguably print, but certain letters end up getting some "cursive" to them depending on how much of a rush I'm in.

 

[TheVrolok]

I like cursive, I think it looks cool. I write in cursive when I'm doing some "creative writing" or poetry just for giggles. Honestly wouldn't care if people didn't learn it anymore .. it's rarely used in any professional setting that I've seen.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
?There are real scholars on this subject who worry that the next generation will not be able to read the Declaration of Independence because it is written in something that looks like hieroglyphics to them.?

http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/document/index.htm

Me - 1
"Scholars" - 0

 

[ViRaLRuSh]

Cursive should still be taught, but honestly I can't even remember the last time I used it besides my extremely hard-to-read signature.

 

[skace]

My signature got so bad that I recently had to re-teach myself cursive to fix it up. The fact that I completely lost the skill shows that it isn't used in any capacity. Even signing things, I do so rarely these days.

 

[sao123]

if you cant at least sign your name in cursive, you should NOT be priviliged to have a CC.
now learn cursive.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: IsLNdbOi

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
I love cursive handwriting. Heres a sample of mine. Every little skull full of mush out there in 3rd grade needs to learn it so we can preserve our ability to express ourselves without electricity or in simple rudimentary block text.

Long live cursive handwriting! :beer:

Can you read this sample resignation letter I copied?

http://img17.imageshack.us/img.../sampleresignation.png


Did this in a minute on a plain white printer paper. Makes me feel good that I can do something (even as insignificant as this) that many people can't or have forgotten how to do.

Are you resigning as shift manager or milk monitor?

Seriously, it looks like the note was written by a child. Not trying to be a dick, but I'd prefer to receive a typed letter from my employees.

 

[DVad3r]

Yes, curvise writing is the dumbest thing ever. Printing ftw.

 

[DVad3r]

My printing is faster and more legible than anyones cursive writing.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca

Originally posted by: zinfamous
retarded.

yet another nail in the coffin of illiteracy that we are bestowing amongst our texting, brain-dead spawn.

Because killing off an unnecessary and outdated second writing system that more often than not is hard to read is totally connected to people not learning grammar properly. :roll:

yeah. I'm guessing you + English = suck?

:roll:

grammar and language are all intertwined. don't be so fucking daft.

No. In fact, I pride myself on my knowledge of spelling and grammar. I might disagree with you, but that doesn't automatically make me an idiot. Do you really have to insult anyone who has a different view from you? I agree that literacy is on the decline but I don't think the decline of cursive is a particularly important factor in it. For years, cursive was taught as though it was an incredibly important skill that you would need later in life. The fact is, it isn't, but proper grammar and spelling are. So perhaps the time normally spent teaching cursive should be changed to teaching grammar and spelling instead.

Originally posted by: sao123
if you cant at least sign your name in cursive, you should NOT be priviliged to have a CC.
now learn cursive.

Most signatures I've seen are just scribbles or the person writing their name reallydamnquick. It can hardly be called cursive. Though it is based on cursive letters.

Originally posted by: kevbot
I can't believe some of you say you can't read cursive. Surely you mean you can't read crappy handwriting. Poor penmanship is just that. If you can read ordinary printed English, then you should be able to handle cursive. I personally don't use cursive, but I also don't have to write anything to anyone that my computer can't handle.

I am sorry if I am being an asshole, but if English is your first language, and you can't read it in any form, then get the education you need.

I am more the lurker than poster, but many of you sound like maximum dolts. Cursive is not brain surgery and reading and writing it is not especially difficult.

I just have trouble reading some cursive, and in my opinion, the readability of cursive degrades more quickly than the readability of printing if the writer's handwriting isn't that good. However, it may just be because cursive lends itself to being written very quickly, and that means that the quality is lower in general. I don't have trouble reading well-written cursive, it's just that if the writer doesn't have very good handwriting, there will usually be a few words I have trouble picking out, which isn't the case with printing.

 

[Cattlegod]

i haven't used cursive since elementary (~20 years ago). oh and for the engineer thing, that doesn't make sense. I have a degree in computer engineering and have never seen anyone use cursive.

replace the cursive learning time with a keyboard ftw.

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: Zeeky Boogy Doog
[
You've arrogantly ignored the entire point of my post, and I was not bragging about high school, I was trying to point out how pathetic it was. Let me spell it out for you.

Premise 1) If learning to write cursive creates certain connections in our brains that allow us to learn and develop certain skills, and Chinese children do not learn cursive, there is almost certainly something else that does the same thing.

Premise 2) Cursive is an outdated method of communication.

Conclusion) We should find another method of teaching these skills. AKA, cursive is worthless.

Interestingly, using your argument.

Premise 1) You repeatedly failed to understand my post.

Premise 2) Learning cursive during early education allows for one's brain to develop a great deal.

Conclusion) You should have worked harder to learn cursive as a child.

I'm done with you unless you actually try to read. Have a nice day!

Edited for clarity

The InflatableBuddha already addressed much of the same things I was going to address, i.e. Kanji (the Japanese characters) also have various styles: Kaisho, Gyosho, and Sosho, with the last two being cursive variants of their "block" Kaisho style.

Therefore Premise (1) is addressed. I agree with Premise (2) - you are just making up arguments here.
As for the second Premise (1) (couldn't have called it 3?) - most of your rambling was sort of pointless, there was no problem in understanding it. In other words: It was completely irreleveant. How your high school was taught and/or any difficulty of your school has no bearing about the development uses of cursive and handwriting in general.

Originally posted by: Zeeky Boogy Doog

As for being bitter, I certainly have to agree, but still no one has addressed my actual proposal.

The only "proposal" I gather from your posts is that you simply want to replace cursive with another skill (see "Conclusion" above). And, by the way, I previously mentioned how this makes no sense so yes, I did address it. Regardless, to put it simply, your proposal is stupid. Okay, well allow me to somewhat elaborate a bit: There may not be any functional replacement for the development that cursive handwriting may assist with. It is not simply about drawing pretty lines, but rather the various connections with language, structure, and the physical act of writing. Cursive does have a practical use, albeit growing more and more limited, it is prove to work and it may arguably be the only method to foster this type of development.

Fundamentally, and unless I missed it, you have not actually suggested any sort of coherent proposal. Bitching about your perception of "worthless outdated information" is not a proposal. Again, that is just you bitching about something.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca

Originally posted by: InflatableBuddha
Well-stated, Perknose. It's sad that so many people today are so lazy and impulsive that they cannot be bothered to spend a bit of time crafting cohesive, original thoughts. Writing in cursive forces you to plan your letter, and it engages your emotions as you transform them into written thoughts.

No matter how convenient and instantaneous technology is, it cannot replace art and feeling. We ignore this to our detriment.

I don't see how learning cursive has anything to do with this.

EDIT: Unfortunately, by saying this, I'm afraid I've opened myself up to attacks of the "you simply don't understand!" variety from you, Perknose, and others. Perknose's rant has some good ideas in it, but it has two main flaws: first, it insults those who disagree with it right off the bat, discouraging reasoned criticisms of it, and second, it gets pretty far away from the topic at hand, which is just about whether cursive is still relevant or not.

I was going to say that more time could be spent on teaching kids to write better if they didn't have to think about also writing in cursive. However, I realized the same argument could then also be applied to grammar, spelling, and punctuation, and I know how disastrous it is when schools try to teach kids writing without expecting them to use proper English.

Still, I'm having a hard time seeing the connection between the ideas Perknose touched on and the decline of cursive writing. I can see wanting to teach kids to write by hand first before putting a keyboard in front of them, but why should it matter whether they use cursive or not? Perhaps with a more consistent approach of teaching only manuscript and focusing on making their printing highly legible and well-formed, we'd see better handwriting than the current approach of teaching printing for 1-2 years, then cursive for 1-2 years, and then back to printing.

You're just seeing the typical response of every person who has been left behind by history. I'm sure the buggy whip makers lamented the downfall of society as fewer and fewer people knew how to raise and care for horses also. As their skill goes out of style, these people have nothing to do but conflate their "skill" beyond just one of several means of accomplishing a given task, and turn it into a way of life. Suddenly cursive isn't just an alternate method of writing, but a lifestyle and the key to the universe. Those who choose to abandon that skill are neanderthals as far as they are concerned, and those that maintain it are the keepers of all that is proper and right.

Get used to hearing things like this because the pace of change in the world is only increasing and the number of people who will find themselves on the scrap heap of history will only increase.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Perhaps, if cursive is so important at teaching certain things (even if cursive itself isn't a useful skill later in life), they could change how cursive is taught. Right now, kids spend a few years writing in print and then are forced to switch to cursive for a couple years. They invariably hate it, and most will attempt to subvert it at every opportunity unless their teacher requires them to use it. Then as soon as they get into junior high and aren't required to use it, they switch back.

Instead, I'm thinking one of the following could be done:

- Teach it earlier. Use a simpler and more useful form like italic cursive and teach it to kindergartners and up. By 3rd or 4th grade, stop requiring cursive and allow anything. Especially if it's the less demanding italic cursive form, many of them will probably have better handwriting for it, and it has the same advantages of connected letters that traditional cursive has.
- Teach it later as part of a "study skills" class. Cursive is no longer used for formal communications - that's been printed letters for the past 20+ years. But cursive is still useful as a note-taking skill since it's (theoretically) faster than printing. Teach it in 5th or 6th grade as a secondary school prep.

I think the issue many people have with cursive is that they were basically lied to when they were young and told that cursive would be important later on. I know some people will make the math analogy ("algebra is useless to most people too!"), but at least math serves as a building block for higher forms of math for those who choose to pursue an education in math or science. Cursive, on the other hand, may build certain skills, but cursive itself is not an important life skill, nor does it serve as a building block for other skills. It is, at best, a vehicle for bringing a particular kind of teaching to students.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

What is the point of cursive ? can anybody elaborate?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
I love cursive handwriting. Heres a sample of mine. Every little skull full of mush out there in 3rd grade needs to learn it so we can preserve our ability to express ourselves without electricity or in simple rudimentary block text.

Long live cursive handwriting! :beer:

You still print your capital letters, and some of your words aren't properly formed. I'm not sure if Perknose will allow you to enter his Church of Handwriting.