Stop and Frisk: Ain't it great!?

[SheHateMe]

Stop and Frisk doesn't even yield good results. Most stops result in non-arrests.

 

[Geosurface]

I'd submit the real reason was principally that they were black, which I imagine is the reason you have no problem with it.

Well actually, I merely listened to the video as I was driving, didn't watch it. My suspicion was that they were Hispanic, rather than black. Are the individuals ever even clearly visible? The short period I did see, you could see a cop's face, but not the owner of the phone.

Here's my feeling on all of this...

Is it unconstitutional? Probably.

If cops were stopping and frisking and harassing black businessmen in suits, or black kids on the chess team wearing Cosby style sweaters and khakis, I'd have an enormous problem with that. What reason could there be to stop black people like that, other than pure and simple racist harassment? I may be anti-diversity, but I'm not in favor of unnecessary mistreatment of anyone...

Unfortunately, I think we've gotten to a point in our nation where there are so many neighborhoods and entire cities just infested with a perpetual criminal demographic. These lifelong thugs come in all colors, though they do come in certain colors much more often than others. They tend to exude a whole aura of "I'm a hard badass, don't fuck with me, yo." and they slink around, and they LOOK SUSPICIOUS. Cops are damned good at recognizing these types.

I am in favor of allowing cops to act upon their knowledge of who is committing crime, and what areas are infested with crime. I think cops even have to break the rules sometimes to get their job done, and even then they come up short because this criminal element is just so entrenched and numerous.

So I'm in favor of double standards, basically. I want good neighborhoods and good, law-abiding people to be treated with consideration and in a completely lawful and constitutional fashion. Regardless of their race.

On the other hand, I want perpetual thugs and their neighborhoods to be treated with appropriate skepticism and harshness. I want the rules bent, stretched, and broken to nail these assholes who make our society worse. I don't want someone who's merely trying to fit in and seem like a hard ass, but who has no criminal record at all, to have crack planted on them and spend years in prison or anything like that, but if someone's got a mile long rap sheet and the cops have a good reason to make their life miserable to get them back off the street, I'm prepared to give them a lot of leeway. Occasionally someone will get harassed who shouldn't, but if you lay down with dogs you get fleas. If you dress like a thug, hang out with thugs, and talk like a a thug... give attitude to cops like a thug... well, what can be said other than that you're asking for harsh treatment at that point? Again, this is completely independent of race.

I want Eminem looking white guys slinking around in bad parts of town to be stopped, harassed, and unconstitutionally fucked with to whatever degree the cops find necessary.

 

[SheHateMe]

If cops were stopping and frisking and harassing black businessmen in suits, or black kids on the chess team wearing Cosby style sweaters and khakis, I'd have an enormous problem with that. What reason could there be to stop black people like that, other than pure and simple racist harassment? I may be anti-diversity, but I'm not in favor of unnecessary mistreatment of anyone...



On the other hand, I want perpetual thugs and their neighborhoods to be treated with appropriate skepticism and harshness. I want the rules bent, stretched, and broken to nail these assholes who make our society worse. I don't want someone who's merely trying to fit in and seem like a hard ass, but who has no criminal record at all, to have crack planted on them and spend years in prison or anything like that, but if someone's got a mile long rap sheet and the cops have a good reason to make their life miserable to get them back off the street, I'm prepared to give them a lot of leeway. Occasionally someone will get harassed who shouldn't, but if you lay down with dogs you get fleas. If you dress like a thug, hang out with thugs, and talk like a a thug... give attitude to cops like a thug... well, what can be said other than that you're asking for harsh treatment at that point? Again, this is completely independent of race.

The cops stopped them for speaking to somebody, dumbass. Your spiel means nothing. It wasn't about how they were dressed. One of them was off the work, the other one you clearly see wearing a hooded sweatshirt with the hood down. He was identifiable. The cops rolled up and detained one and harrased the other.....even after they found out they had absolutely nothing on them.

You say its racist to stop a black man in a business suit but NOT racist to stop a black guy walking down the street in a hooded sweater. You can't have it both ways, jerk.

Your last paragraph doesn't even apply to these two. As the cops said "You're a good guy!". They had no record, no warrants...yet, one was detained and the other harrased.

 

[Nintendesert]

I want Eminem looking white guys slinking around in bad parts of town to be stopped, harassed, and unconstitutionally fucked with to whatever degree the cops find necessary.

Yeah, people like you are scary. No rule of law to harass the undesirables. Governments have done a good job of changing targets on who the undesirables are. This generations won't be next generations undesirables, but rest assured, if sickos like you have your way, they can equally be unjustly targeted and have their constitutional rights arbitrarily stripped away by armed thugs in the NYPD.

You know, the ones riding around in motorcycle gangs and gang beating young Asian couples in SUVs for fun.

 

[Geosurface]

You say its racist to stop a black man in a business suit but NOT racist to stop a black guy walking down the street in a hooded sweater. You can't have it both ways, jerk.

Sure I can. There's a difference.

You always ignore the X factor. How do they carry themselves? Does speaking to the particular person they were seen speaking to, in that neighborhood, tend to have implications the cops are aware of that you aren't?

Just from how they spoke in response to the cops, I could tell these guys were stopped for a general attitude and vibe they put off, not just their race.

 

[Geosurface]

Yeah, people like you are scary. No rule of law to harass the undesirables. Governments have done a good job of changing targets on who the undesirables are. This generations won't be next generations undesirables, but rest assured, if sickos like you have your way, they can equally be unjustly targeted and have their constitutional rights arbitrarily stripped away by armed thugs in the NYPD.

You know, the ones riding around in motorcycle gangs and gang beating young Asian couples in SUVs for fun.

Call me when they redefine "undesirables" to include normal people, dressed normally, and conducting themselves normally.

As it stands currently, it still requires them to be trying to put off the vibe that they're a hard badass. You know exactly the attitude I'm talking about, and they reek of it.

 

[SheHateMe]

Sure I can. There's a difference.

You always ignore the X factor. How do they carry themselves? Does speaking to the particular person they were seen speaking to, in that neighborhood, tend to have implications the cops are aware of that you aren't?

Just from how they spoke in response to the cops, I could tell these guys were stopped for a general attitude and vibe they put off, not just their race.

So did you watch the video or not? These two were just walking down the street.

What attitude did they have? The first guy asks "what seems to be the problem?". The officers IMMEDIATELY escalated the situation. The two men did not give attitude in any way, they complied with everything. Asking "what did I do, officer?" is not an attitude.

However, the officer saying shit like "i'll kick your ass" and "i'll split your wig" shows clear abuse of authority and ill intent.


And you can twist all you want about why they were really stopped. The cop clearly gets out of the car to ask why they spoke to somebody. Not what Geosurface said...but because they spoke to somebody sitting on a porch. Even if they were actually friends with the guy they spoke to (who cops say was a drug dealer)...that is NOT against the law.

 

[Geosurface]

So did you watch the video or not? These two were just walking down the street.

What attitude did they have? The first guy asks "what seems to be the problem?". The officers IMMEDIATELY escalated the situation. The two men did not give attitude in any way, they complied with everything. Asking "what did I do, officer?" is not an attitude.

However, the officer saying shit like "i'll kick your ass" and "i'll split your wig" shows clear abuse of authority and ill intent.


And you can twist all you want about why they were really stopped. The cop clearly gets out of the car to ask why they spoke to somebody. Not what Geosurface said...but because they spoke to somebody sitting on a porch. Even if they were actually friends with the guy they spoke to (who cops say was a drug dealer)...that is NOT against the law.

I listened to it.

I heard one guy refusing to give his name and the other one being a smart ass about his middle initial. I heard a lot of backtalk, and I heard evasiveness. I also heard an admission of having been locked up before.

If they were seen talking to a known drug dealer, in a bad area, I understand why the cops wanted to search them and question them.

But sure, the cops may have had them all wrong. Best way to get on about your life when the cops mistakenly impede you and have you all wrong, is to be polite and cooperative, and be an open book to them. Believe it or not, despite me being paper white, I have been stopped by the police (while with equally white friends) multiple times.

One time we were stopped by about 4 cruisers and 2 K-9 units, and I think they even had guns drawn (this was years ago) because they thought we were some guys who'd fled a party after beating people there with aluminum baseball bats. We were sitting there while they figured out it wasn't us, for quite a long time. It was pretty intimidating to have that many cop vehicles with their lights and sirens going, force us into a parking lot and hold us there completely surrounded for like half an hour.

We were cooperative, and completely open with them. We got out of there fine. They had "no reason" to stop us by your standards, other than the color and brand of our vehicle (grey Ford) - but we understood that the cops have to have some leeway to act and investigate.

 

[SheHateMe]

I listened to it.

I heard one guy refusing to give his name and the other one being a smart ass about his middle initial. I heard a lot of backtalk, and I heard evasiveness. I also heard an admission of having been locked up before.

He gave his name, the cop was giving him shit about not knowing the name of the guy he spoke to. The cop also gave the other guy shit for not knowing the exact address of where he came from and then accused him of coming out of the same house as where the drug dealers live.

Yes, one admitted to being locked up before...for fighting. The cop goes "that's it?".

If they were seen talking to a known drug dealer, in a bad area, I understand why the cops wanted to search them and question them.

But sure, the cops may have had them all wrong. Best way to get on about your life when the cops mistakenly impede you and have you all wrong, is to be polite and cooperative, and be an open book to them. Believe it or not, despite me being paper white, I have been stopped by the police (while with equally white friends) multiple times.

The cops had them wrong, admitted that they did...and then the other one tried to come up with reasons to "investigate" them further.

Oh, so since you decided to add in an anecdote, have you ever been stopped by the police for speaking to somebody? Have you ever been detained inside of the car unlawfully while the cops threaten to beat up your friend? Ever been held after they checked you out and you cleared? Ever had cops trying to find out how they can keep you ("they crossed at a red light...").

No?

But I'm glad you've been stopped by the cops as a white man. Here we all were thinking white people never got stopped by the police.

One time we were stopped by about 4 cruisers and 2 K-9 units, and I think they even had guns drawn (this was years ago) because they thought we were some guys who'd fled a party after beating people there with aluminum baseball bats. We were sitting there while they figured out it wasn't us, for quite a long time. It was pretty intimidating to have that many cop vehicles with their lights and sirens going, force us into a parking lot and hold us there completely surrounded for like half an hour.

Yea, sure you did.

We were cooperative, and completely open with them. We got out of there fine. They had "no reason" to stop us by your standards, other than the color and brand of our vehicle (grey Ford) - but we understood that the cops have to have some leeway to act and investigate.

Again, the cops stopped them for speaking to somebody. They detained one for speaking to somebody. They were antagonizing these two men. Do you agree with their language and what they were saying to these two? That they'd beat their ass?



I know its hard for you to consider wrong doing when the other party is brown.

 

[Geosurface]

have you ever been stopped by the police for speaking to somebody?

No.

Have you ever been detained inside of the car unlawfully while the cops threaten to beat up your friend?

There were three of us in the car in the incident I described, but only the driver, my best friend, was made to get out and face questioning by the officers. We could sort of hear what they were saying, but mostly had to rely on his account afterward. As I said, it's been years, and I can't recall exactly what he said the cops told him, and to be honest I think they figured out we were nerdy law-abiding guys pretty quickly. Still, I believe they had some pretty rough things to say to him until they figured that out. Did they threaten to beat him up? Probably not, but they were pretty harsh at first.

Btw, if the cops in the city I grew up in didn't stop and be suspicious of white people, they wouldn't have had anything to do at all. Very, very white city at that time especially.

Ever been held after they checked you out and you cleared?

After? No, I don't think so. Until? Yes.

Ever had cops trying to find out how they can keep you ("they crossed at a red light...").

No, but we also didn't give them attitude, and none of us had ever been on the wrong side of the law. We also didn't act thuggish or talk back. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Yea, sure you did.

Yea, I sure did. It's funny how often I've been accused of misrepresenting my own life story or just lying in one way or another on these boards, when I have literally never done so. If I was lying about the incident, I'd make it out to be much worse. Mostly it was good for laughs and a story, though it stressed the living hell out of my friend who actually had to be directly questioned.

Btw, to expound on it a bit, the only reasons we were stopped were:

1.) Color of our car
2.) Number of people inside car
3.) Brand of car
4.) We drove past the house the beating had happened at (coincidence)
5.) Almost forgot, our gender! It isn't just "brown males" it's all males who face greater scrutiny from cops. Appropriately so.

According to you, did the cops have the right to stop us and investigate us?

Again, the cops stopped them for speaking to somebody. They detained one for speaking to somebody. They were antagonizing these two men. Do you agree with their language and what they were saying to these two? That they'd beat their ass?

I think cops especially in rough, big cities like NYC and Philly talk rough like that, particularly with thugs or people who aren't entirely compliant. I don't have a problem with it.

 

[SheHateMe]

Btw, to expound on it a bit, the only reasons we were stopped were:

1.) Color of our car
2.) Number of people inside car
3.) Brand of car
4.) We drove past the house the beating had happened at (coincidence)

According to you, did the cops have the right to stop us and investigate us?

They stopped you because your car fit a description.

1)These cops stopped these two for speaking to someone and 2) then made up a story about how they got a "call" about a robbery and these two matched the description. That call likely did not exist as you can clearly determine from the conversation that they stopped these two guys for no reason other than they thought they were cohorts of the man they spoke to.

After that theory was debunked, they still did not let them go

That's bullshit and thats abuse.

I think cops especially in rough, big cities like NYC and Philly talk rough like that, particularly with thugs or people who aren't entirely compliant. I don't have a problem with it.

So, its cool for a cop to threaten to beat your ass then? Is that what you're saying?

 

[Geosurface]

They stopped you because your car fit a description.

True, "grey Ford product" if I recall exactly. That's kind of vague isn't it? Not even a model?

The fact is, we hadn't done ANYTHING wrong, whatsoever. Not even a minor traffic violation. We had our blood pressure raised, got surrounded by at least 5 cop vehicles, got freaked out, and had about 30 minutes of our time taken from us. Was that abuse? Or was it an unfortunate but inevitable aspect of police work?

made up a story about how they got a "call" about a robbery and these two matched the description. That call likely did not exist

It was quite clear that the cop was presenting a hypothetical, as such, just to make his point that you shouldn't start arguing with a cop because you are certain they can't have had a good reason to bother you, because you don't know what reasons and context the cops may have.

no reason other than they thought they were cohorts of the man they spoke to.

After that theory was debunked, they still did not let them go

That's bullshit and thats abuse.

If they saw them talking to a known drug dealer, I'm not surprised that they needed some time to satisfy themselves that these guys weren't in need of any further scrutiny. It took them some time to run their info to check their records, and the individuals themselves extended the duration of the whole thing by being difficult about giving their info, and by giving the cops lip, which makes the cops get irritated and defensive, and want to punish them by dragging it out longer. Is that sort of an unfortunate byproduct of human nature and ego? Sure, but as I said before... if you aren't a criminal of any kind, and you're completely cooperative, you are likely to get released pretty quickly. My friends and I had no criminal records, and were 100% cooperative, and still were held for about twice as long as these guys if I recall correctly.

Btw, any time someone is recording they are going to try to say things which make the cops respond poorly, so that the cops look worse. The obstinance was calculated to that end, at least in part.

So, its cool for a cop to threaten to beat your ass then? Is that what you're saying?

My ass? No, because I wouldn't give them any reason to. Some trouble maker's ass? Sure.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I want Eminem looking white guys slinking around in bad parts of town to be stopped, harassed, and unconstitutionally fucked with to whatever degree the cops find necessary.

They already were/are.

edit: I have been stopped and searched illegally both walking and in a car. 1 time each. I was in a part of a city that white people don't generally go. Cops thought I was buying/looking for crack, even said it was because I was a "white boy" in the "wrong neighborhood". Waste of their time, don't touch the stuff popo!

 

[Nintendesert]

Call me when they redefine "undesirables" to include normal people, dressed normally, and conducting themselves normally.

As it stands currently, it still requires them to be trying to put off the vibe that they're a hard badass. You know exactly the attitude I'm talking about, and they reek of it.

Right, normal being code for white and the attitude I know they reek of is being a minority.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/n...ractice-violated-rights-judge-rules.html?_r=0

The judge here agrees too.

 

[shortylickens]

Stop and Frisk doesn't even yield good results. Most stops result in non-arrests.

Police always use the excuse of Tim McVeigh. They keep excluding all the poor bastards who are abused every year.

 

[shortylickens]

I want Eminem looking white guys slinking around in bad parts of town to be stopped, harassed, and unconstitutionally fucked with to whatever degree the cops find necessary.

They are.
If you're white and try to act like you belong in black culture, you will be treated like a black man.

 

[Geosurface]

So why is being a thug criminal and dressing to match "acting black" or "black culture"?

People seem to say that to get treated like a criminal a white must act black, and to not be treated like one, a black must act white.

Isn't it more accurate to refer to these as acting like a thug vs acting like a normal person, and take the race element out of it?

I mean, I realize that a lot higher % are acting like thugs in one group than another, but does that mean that if Asian guys start raping women at high enough rates it crosses into a territory where it acquires a shield of cultural association? We'd have to start tip-toeing around it because some would excuse it as Asian culture?

A high enough % of a group engages in societally destructive behaviors and it becomes racist to criticize those behaviors from that group? Odd.

 

[Doppel]

I read a summary of the video on daily mail.

I am still in support of frisking and arresting people who take vertical videos.

However, based on the dailymail summary these were typical pigs. In an ideal world they would be suspended without pay for six months minimum, but we all know their reprimand, if they get one, will be paltry. And congrats to them now the guys they stopped will
Have a lifelong wariness of police.

 

[Doppel]

Right, normal being code for white and the attitude I know they reek of is being a minority.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/n...ractice-violated-rights-judge-rules.html?_r=0

The judge here agrees too.

Oh fuck yes! I didn't realize any police in the country were going to be wearing cameras--something I have mentioned in the past that I would like to see.

I really look forward to a future in which 100% of police at all times are filming what they are doing. This will be the most important step in history toward reducing police brutality and misbehavior. We must all move toward total mandatory video recording of police while on duty as quickly as we can.

 

[Geosurface]

I contend that police deal with a lot of realities day to day, particularly in certain areas, which trigger reactions especially over time.

Those reactions can be very hard to understand if you jump in without the framework and backstory of what led to them and just look at that snapshot.

Not saying there aren't bad, abusive, power-tripping cops. Just saying that it's very easy to sit comfortably and judge from afar.

 

[Zodiark1593]

Whats stopping them from beating the shit out of you for "resisting" arrest? Or worse....

As the Cop said in the video...he has no problem kicking both of their asses....for no reason.

Not having ID would probably antagonize them even more.

And I have no problem delivering a solid kick to an officer's face (or anyone's for that matter) should they prove a physical threat to myself.

"Why no judge, I didn't break that cop's face. He must have tripped. "

 

[palehorse]

F'n sickening.

 

[dmcowen674]

I completely endorse these police, as well as stop and frisk, and profiling.

Post where you live so we can send the Police on you. You seem suspicious.

 

[Doppel]

I contend that police deal with a lot of realities day to day, particularly in certain areas, which trigger reactions especially over time.

Those reactions can be very hard to understand if you jump in without the framework and backstory of what led to them and just look at that snapshot.

Not saying there aren't bad, abusive, power-tripping cops. Just saying that it's very easy to sit comfortably and judge from afar.

They deal with difficult topics. If they cannot stand up to judgement they should find a different line of work. If there were personal dash cams for cops we'd be able to see everything and completely clear up matters like this.

 

[SheHateMe]

They deal with difficult topics. If they cannot stand up to judgement they should find a different line of work. If there were personal dash cams for cops we'd be able to see everything and completely clear up matters like this.

Exactly.