Steve Wozniak: Toyota has a software problem

[sdifox]

The reality is that Woz knows about software issues is based upon 35 year old machines and that he's probably pretty out of date concerning modern software and hardware. His expertise might mean something if Toyota was using an Apple II under the hood, but I suspect they aren't.

My point is that there is a LOT of FUD that isn't backed up by actual verifiable results beyond the possibly geriatric ramblimngs of someone that is closer to a half century out of date and his experience is well on neigh worthless. Did Woz program the Toyota firmware? Did he program the software? Did he have any part in any stage of anything related to the drive mechanisms of Toyota's vehicles?

FUD factor is really high on this, and when the dust settles, Toyota will have paid out a HUGE omg HUGE amount of money for a handful of lawsuits revolving around a really really really small number of actually defective cars.

That's one way of looking at it.

Quoted for posterity

 

[Vette73]

^

That and today Toyota has admitted there is a software issue with the Prius

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/04/japan.prius.complaints/index.html?hpt=T1

 

[Fingolfin269]

^

That and today Toyota has admitted there is a software issue with the Prius

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/04/japan.prius.complaints/index.html?hpt=T1

Toyota officials described the problem as a "disconnect" in the vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system (ABS) that causes less than a one-second lag. With the delay, a vehicle going 60 mph will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin to take hold.

I didn't bother to check the math but wow.

 

[brblx]

wait, what?

these cars don't have brake by wire...where does the delay stem from? a delay in ABS engagement is not a delay in brake application.

i really wish these articles weren't so retardedly vague.

 

[EightySix Four]

wait, what?

these cars don't have brake by wire...where does the delay stem from? a delay in ABS engagement is not a delay in brake application.

i really wish these articles weren't so retardedly vague.

Braking is not by wire, but the ABS is controlled by the BCM, so another software issue.

 

[brblx]

again, ABS != brakes.

anyone who stabs the brakes to the floor at 60mph doesn't need to be driving, anyway.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

They should just get fleabag to "finesse the computer".

lol

 

[Fingolfin269]

again, ABS != brakes.

anyone who stabs the brakes to the floor at 60mph doesn't need to be driving, anyway.

I take it you've never had anything run out in front of you where there are no other options other than just hitting it more softly due to slowly decelerating?

 

[spidey07]

Latest word on this is Wozniak didn't understand how his cruise control works. It has laser cruise control and is working as designed.

 

[brblx]

I take it you've never had anything run out in front of you where there are no other options other than just hitting it more softly due to slowly decelerating?

1) reread your post. that sentence makes little to no sense.

2) my point it that <1 second of the ABS not modulating, at speed, is going to have near zero impact. waaaaaaah, the car's not driving itself for me.

this ABS problem reminds me of a complaint i once got on a ford truck- if the guy stomped up and down on the gas pedal (going from closed throttle to WOT and back multiple times in a matter of seconds), the engine would backfire through the intake. solution: quit being a moron and don't do that.

Latest word on this is Wozniak didn't understand how his cruise control works. It has laser cruise control and is working as designed.

i hope toyota sues him for slander. what a dumb wise and beautiful woman.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Looks like it's more than just brakes with the Prius: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-prius5-2010feb05,0,986574.story?track=rss

headlights-Toyota indicated that the headlights were designed to "intermittently turn on and off signaling the need for repair or replacement."

unintended acceleration

stalling in 2004 and 2005 models, in which consumers complained that the engine shut down without warning.

 

[StageLeft]

again, ABS != brakes.

anyone who stabs the brakes to the floor at 60mph doesn't need to be driving, anyway.

You certainly have a lot of apologies for Toyota. People across this country hit their brakes full on at 60 mph I'm sure thousands of times/day. Sometimes they weren't paying attention, which is why they ended up having to do this aggressive maneuver and other times a deer runs out on the road. You really mean you've never seen a deer in front of you? An unlit road even to an attentive driver these things are sometimes quite impossible to avoid hitting because they have a great ability to hide off to the side of the road behind a tree and then dart out in front of your car. If 1 second at 60 mph is 90 feet that could definitely be the difference between collision and not. Have you ever hit a moose with your car? The answer to that is very likely no, because 2000 lbs coming down on your windshield has a history of being fatal.

What's next, if their seatbelts start unlatching during accidents a good driver shouldn't need a seatbelt anyway?

 

[Pliablemoose]

You certainly have a lot of apologies for Toyota. People across this country hit their brakes full on at 60 mph I'm sure thousands of times/day. Sometimes they weren't paying attention, which is why they ended up having to do this aggressive maneuver and other times a deer runs out on the road. You really mean you've never seen a deer in front of you? An unlit road even to an attentive driver these things are sometimes quite impossible to avoid hitting because they have a great ability to hide off to the side of the road behind a tree and then dart out in front of your car. If 1 second at 60 mph is 90 feet that could definitely be the difference between collision and not. Have you ever hit a moose with your car? The answer to that is very likely no, because 2000 lbs coming down on your windshield has a history of being fatal.

What's next, if their seatbelts start unlatching during accidents a good driver shouldn't need a seatbelt anyway?

 

[sdifox]

You certainly have a lot of apologies for Toyota. People across this country hit their brakes full on at 60 mph I'm sure thousands of times/day. Sometimes they weren't paying attention, which is why they ended up having to do this aggressive maneuver and other times a deer runs out on the road. You really mean you've never seen a deer in front of you? An unlit road even to an attentive driver these things are sometimes quite impossible to avoid hitting because they have a great ability to hide off to the side of the road behind a tree and then dart out in front of your car. If 1 second at 60 mph is 90 feet that could definitely be the difference between collision and not. Have you ever hit a moose with your car? The answer to that is very likely no, because 2000 lbs coming down on your windshield has a history of being fatal.

What's next, if their seatbelts start unlatching during accidents a good driver shouldn't need a seatbelt anyway?

Is that how you became pliable? :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[boomerang]

again, ABS != brakes.

anyone who stabs the brakes to the floor at 60mph doesn't need to be driving, anyway.

I had numerous deer walk out in front of me one evening a few weeks back while I was going 50. I nailed the brakes as hard as I could. Should I park my car and cease driving?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=29144196&postcount=10

I know that this scenario has been covered already, but really, I just can't get enough of you having your ass handed to you.

 

[brblx]

sorry, i don't belong to the school of knee-jerk driving.

and i don't have apologies for toyota, i'm just tired of morons saying 'lol toyota lol' when there is only one real issue out there- and it's still pretty much a non-issue. i could give a fuck if your lack of driving competence and/or generally retarded thought processes kill you, just try not to take anyone else with you, thanks.

there's a reason i don't post in this forum much, i don't enjoy talking to automotive 'experts' who seem to barely have the capability to drive to work and back.

 

[PhoKingGuy]

sorry, i don't belong to the school of knee-jerk driving.

and i don't have apologies for toyota, i'm just tired of morons saying 'lol toyota lol' when there is only one real issue out there- and it's still pretty much a non-issue. i could give a fuck if your lack of driving competence and/or generally retarded thought processes kill you, just try not to take anyone else with you, thanks.

there's a reason i don't post in this forum much, i don't enjoy talking to automotive 'experts' who seem to barely have the capability to drive to work and back.

lulz

Why are you so apologetic for a company that hid its well known problems from consumers for years? Then tried to stealth fix things when they come in for routine services. They've relied on their laurels for years and the build quality of any new toyota is worse than the stuff they used to make (even my relatives who have purchased only toyotas for 20+ years are jumping ship to Ford/BMW because of their dissatisfaction with their products).

It could very well be a nonissue but when your customers start dying, retarded or not and you knew of those problems before hand, you very much deserve the shit storm they are going through

 

[StageLeft]

Is that how you became pliable? :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Just beautiful.

sorry, i don't belong to the school of knee-jerk driving.

and i don't have apologies for toyota, i'm just tired of morons saying 'lol toyota lol' when there is only one real issue out there- and it's still pretty much a non-issue. i could give a fuck if your lack of driving competence and/or generally retarded thought processes kill you, just try not to take anyone else with you, thanks.

there's a reason i don't post in this forum much, i don't enjoy talking to automotive 'experts' who seem to barely have the capability to drive to work and back.

I think most of us realize that these Toyota problems are unlikely to affect most users. For the VAST majority of people it is a complete non-issue. However, for those who have had it it is a definite issue and hitting the brakes hard at 60 doesn't mean you're in need of driving training

 

[Pliablemoose]

Goddamn moose haters...

But yeah, to jump on the trash Toyota bandwagon, it was bound to catch up with them, they kept getting a pass on everything they did for years, finally, they have been proven to step over the line and all the crap that was glossed over starts to matter.

 

[ShawnD1]

I had an '84 Camaro and had a cruize control issue I found scary at first but cool later on. If you had been on the highway cruizing at 70mph, then exited the highway and stopped, once you let off the brake pedal and hit the resume button, the throttle would paste itself to the floor and you'd get from 0 to 70 mph real fast. The first time I didn't mean to hit the resume button that way and it scared the crap out of me, but all I had to do was tap the brake pedal to disengage it. I tried this with our other newer GM cars, but the cruize control resume wouldn't work under 30 mph.

I'm thinking they probably changed this because it was causing a lot of car crashes. My 92 Ford Tempo had a similar cruise control and it scared me as well.
The old cruise control was so entertaining. I loved how it would physically move the pedal up and down

 

[Bignate603]

sorry, i don't belong to the school of knee-jerk driving.

and i don't have apologies for toyota, i'm just tired of morons saying 'lol toyota lol' when there is only one real issue out there- and it's still pretty much a non-issue. i could give a fuck if your lack of driving competence and/or generally retarded thought processes kill you, just try not to take anyone else with you, thanks.

there's a reason i don't post in this forum much, i don't enjoy talking to automotive 'experts' who seem to barely have the capability to drive to work and back.

Yes, because you have absolute control over everyone and everything around you while you drive.

If you don't understand that sometimes even the best driver might need to hit their brakes hard you shouldn't be driving. I've had deer, kids and other cars pull out in front of me with no warning. If you think you can plan for everything try having a deer run out of a corn field at full speed right in front of you. There's no warning because the corn is taller than the deer and it comes almost to the side of the road.

 

[0roo0roo]

The reality is that Woz knows about software issues is based upon 35 year old machines and that he's probably pretty out of date concerning modern software and hardware. His expertise might mean something if Toyota was using an Apple II under the hood, but I suspect they aren't.

My point is that there is a LOT of FUD that isn't backed up by actual verifiable results beyond the possibly geriatric ramblimngs of someone that is closer to a half century out of date and his experience is well on neigh worthless. Did Woz program the Toyota firmware? Did he program the software? Did he have any part in any stage of anything related to the drive mechanisms of Toyota's vehicles?

FUD factor is really high on this, and when the dust settles, Toyota will have paid out a HUGE omg HUGE amount of money for a handful of lawsuits revolving around a really really really small number of actually defective cars.

That's one way of looking at it.

wrong, his foundations are on the basic logic/workings of computers. he designed circuits/chips on paper as a kid even. the details might change a bit but the fundamental logic is the same. toyota isn't using alien technology. i wouldn't doubt his opinion on such things.

 

[Fingolfin269]

I had numerous deer walk out in front of me one evening a few weeks back while I was going 50. I nailed the brakes as hard as I could. Should I park my car and cease driving?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=29144196&postcount=10

I know that this scenario has been covered already, but really, I just can't get enough of you having your ass handed to you.

This is what I was referring to above. His advice is to never stab the breaks under any circumstance. The only other choices are to either swerve around (if that option is available) or lightly press the breaks and hit the object in front of you with less force than if you did absolutely nothing. I pointed this out earlier and I believe his superior driving prowess did not allow him to fully understand the sentence. Do not worry. If a deer jumps in front of him he will simply will his car to stop or, if feeling rather bold, may jump over the deer entirely. Teleportation is also an option.