Steve Wozniak: Toyota has a software problem

[sdifox]

I remember reading somewhere that its German/European law that mandates when the accelerator and brake are pressed at the same time that the ecu immediately cut power to the engine.

Perhaps Toyota should have taken a page out of their book for once

Don't know anything about the law aspect, but you would think that is a good thing to do with regards to throttle and brakes.

 

[3chordcharlie]

I remember reading somewhere that its German/European law that mandates when the accelerator and brake are pressed at the same time that the ecu immediately cut power to the engine.

Perhaps Toyota should have taken a page out of their book for once

Is that why NASCAR isn't very popular in Europe?

 

[crab]

I remember reading somewhere that its German/European law that mandates when the accelerator and brake are pressed at the same time that the ecu immediately cut power to the engine.

Perhaps Toyota should have taken a page out of their book for once

Well then how the hell are we gonna do big smokey burnouts??

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Well then how the hell are we gonna do big smokey burnouts??

Simple, you just get people to hold on to the car!

 

[IcePickFreak]

Big smokey burnouts with a Toyota? I didn't think they were big in demand.

 

[crab]

Simple, you just get people to hold on to the car!

Aww thats cute.

 

[DietDrThunder]

The Department of Transportation just issued request for you to not drive the recalled Toyotas.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/03/news/companies/dot_toyota_lahood/index.htm?hpt=T1

 

[alphatarget1]

I kind of feel bad for Toyota. This seems like such a minor issue (in the grand scheme of building a car) yet it's so important to get it right. If you drive a manual car you would know EXACTLY what to do in these situations, but even then I think it'll still be dangerous. This is what happens when the car industry and people demand "smart" cars that takes driving ability out of the equation.

I often asked myself why Toyota was so good and whether the same thing that happened to GM could happen to them. I guess this answers my question.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

The Department of Transportation just issued request for you to not drive the recalled Toyotas.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/03/news/companies/dot_toyota_lahood/index.htm?hpt=T1

How can they take the car to the dealer if they can't drive it?

"My advice is if anyone owns one of these vehicles stop driving it and take it to Toyota dealer because they believe they have a fix for it," LaHood told a House committee.

 

[brblx]

I kind of feel bad for Toyota. This seems like such a minor issue (in the grand scheme of building a car) yet it's so important to get it right. If you drive a manual car you would know EXACTLY what to do in these situations, but even then I think it'll still be dangerous. This is what happens when the car industry and people demand "smart" cars that takes driving ability out of the equation.

pretty much. the failure rate on these pedals is just not high at all. if it were, say, ten million window switches that were affected, no one would give half a shit, and toyota would just fix the ones that failed in warranty.

i would really like to hear more about this supposed software glitch with this tool's prius, though. the article gives no specifics, and the prius isn't even in the pedal recall (just the floormat deal iirc).

edit: and the article above shows a big lot full of parked yarises, which are also not involved...

 

[DietDrThunder]

How can they take the car to the dealer if they can't drive it?

I thought this sounded stupid as well. He's obviously chauffeured and doesn't drive much.

Shall we start a US Government Conspiracy against Toyota thread yet?

 

[ElFenix]

ray lahood has retracted his comments

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35216587/ns/business-autos/

 

[Dari]

MIKEMIKE seems to be on a roll with these anti-Toyota and pro-Hyundai threads. But I'm a Honda guy so all this is amusing to me.

 

[MikeMike]

MIKEMIKE seems to be on a roll with these anti-Toyota and pro-Hyundai threads. But I'm a Honda guy so all this is amusing to me.

now im pro-hyundai, awesome.

you want me to start the flash flood warnings in the next thread?

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

pretty much. the failure rate on these pedals is just not high at all. if it were, say, ten million window switches that were affected, no one would give half a shit, and toyota would just fix the ones that failed in warranty.

i would really like to hear more about this supposed software glitch with this tool's prius, though. the article gives no specifics, and the prius isn't even in the pedal recall (just the floormat deal iirc).

edit: and the article above shows a big lot full of parked yarises, which are also not involved...

Window switches don't kill people.

MIKEMIKE seems to be on a roll with these anti-Toyota and pro-Hyundai threads. But I'm a Honda guy so all this is amusing to me.

Honda has a recall going world wide on the Fits.

 

[EightySix Four]

pretty much. the failure rate on these pedals is just not high at all. if it were, say, ten million window switches that were affected, no one would give half a shit, and toyota would just fix the ones that failed in warranty.

i would really like to hear more about this supposed software glitch with this tool's prius, though. the article gives no specifics, and the prius isn't even in the pedal recall (just the floormat deal iirc).

edit: and the article above shows a big lot full of parked yarises, which are also not involved...

He posted on slashdot what the actual problem was:

"I can nudge my cruise control speed lever and my speed barely goes up, say from 80 to 81. I nudge at it again and again, up to 83. Then I nudge it again and the car takes off, no speed limit. Nudging the cruise speed control lever down has no effect until I've done it about 10 times or more. By then my Prius is doing 97. It's scary because it's so wrong and so out of your normal control. I tested this over and over the night I observed it."

 

[sisq0kidd]

Isn't Wozniak's issue with his Prius about the cruise control and not the brake pedal? He says tapping the cruise control several times will accelerate the car greatly instead of in increments.

I personally have nothing against Toyota, but some of you need to relax on the hate.

 

[caspur]

An update, parts for the Camry are due in the end of the week.

I will update on exactly what is being repaired and any reimbursement costs from Toyota for the repairs as I get the numbers in.

The Prius and Yaris are not on the recall list yet. At this time, no repairs are needed for these vehicles.

 

[sisq0kidd]

He posted on slashdot what the actual problem was:

"I can nudge my cruise control speed lever and my speed barely goes up, say from 80 to 81. I nudge at it again and again, up to 83. Then I nudge it again and the car takes off, no speed limit. Nudging the cruise speed control lever down has no effect until I've done it about 10 times or more. By then my Prius is doing 97. It's scary because it's so wrong and so out of your normal control. I tested this over and over the night I observed it."

"Braking does disable this scary cruise control effect. It is a natural response, so the problem is mitigated a great deal."

Edit: Bah, your ninja edit!

 

[EightySix Four]

"Braking does disable this scary cruise control effect. It is a natural response, so the problem is mitigated a great deal."

Edit: Bah, your ninja edit!

While I agree what he ran into a non issue, this does show that the system has certain situations which put it into WOT. Combined with other engineering issues that have been brought to light (such as the brakes being over powered, the lack of engine kill when throttle and brake are depressed, the oddly shaped shift lever, and the lack of keys for the ignition) you have a recipe for the perfect storm for an average or below average driver.

 

[DietDrThunder]

Isn't Wozniak's issue with his Prius about the cruise control and not the brake pedal? He says tapping the cruise control several times will accelerate the car greatly instead of in increments.

I personally have nothing against Toyota, but some of you need to relax on the hate.

I'm one of those who doesn't care what others drive.I'm not hating, just think it is funny.

I had an '84 Camaro and had a cruize control issue I found scary at first but cool later on. If you had been on the highway cruizing at 70mph, then exited the highway and stopped, once you let off the brake pedal and hit the resume button, the throttle would paste itself to the floor and you'd get from 0 to 70 mph real fast. The first time I didn't mean to hit the resume button that way and it scared the crap out of me, but all I had to do was tap the brake pedal to disengage it. I tried this with our other newer GM cars, but the cruize control resume wouldn't work under 30 mph.

 

[brblx]

Window switches don't kill people.

that was (sort of) my point. it's not that toyota is building 'worse' cars than anyone else, they just have a really damned unlucky problem. but to be fair, gas pedals don't kill people either. this is still an issue of retarded people killing themselves. for that matter, this wozniak guy sounds like a fucking dipshit.

An update, parts for the Camry are due in the end of the week.

we just got a box today. they're metal shims to be placed inside the pedal assembly. they are only for camrys with CTS pedals...still no word on what the hell they're going to do about the corollas, rav4s, and other affected models.

 

[Bignate603]

Window switches don't kill people.



Honda has a recall going world wide on the Fits.

Actually, that recall on the Honda Fit is because the window switches could kill people, it killed a toddler when the car caught fire.

Fit recall

 

[stinkynathan]

that was (sort of) my point. it's not that toyota is building 'worse' cars than anyone else, they just have a really damned unlucky problem. but to be fair, gas pedals don't kill people either. this is still an issue of retarded people killing themselves. for that matter, this wozniak guy sounds like a fucking dipshit.

I'm thinking Wozniak knows what he's talking about when it comes to software issues:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Wozniak

I think he's trying to bring light to the fact that there are flaws in the system. While the flaw he discovered is relatively minor and easily defeated, it could, combined another software glitch, create a catastrophic situation.

We already know there is at least one drive by wire issue in that black box. Who knows what other gremlins are hiding?

 

[Tsavo]

I'm thinking Wozniak knows what he's talking about when it comes to software issues:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Wozniak

I think he's trying to bring light to the fact that there are flaws in the system. While the flaw he discovered is relatively minor and easily defeated, it could, combined another software glitch, create a catastrophic situation.

We already know there is at least one drive by wire issue in that black box. Who knows what other gremlins are hiding?

The reality is that Woz knows about software issues is based upon 35 year old machines and that he's probably pretty out of date concerning modern software and hardware. His expertise might mean something if Toyota was using an Apple II under the hood, but I suspect they aren't.

My point is that there is a LOT of FUD that isn't backed up by actual verifiable results beyond the possibly geriatric ramblimngs of someone that is closer to a half century out of date and his experience is well on neigh worthless. Did Woz program the Toyota firmware? Did he program the software? Did he have any part in any stage of anything related to the drive mechanisms of Toyota's vehicles?

FUD factor is really high on this, and when the dust settles, Toyota will have paid out a HUGE omg HUGE amount of money for a handful of lawsuits revolving around a really really really small number of actually defective cars.

That's one way of looking at it.