Originally posted by: NeoV
speed, I love your enthusiasm, but you are going way overboard here...lets look at a few of your comments...
"Walton is a better rebounder/defender than probably anyone on PHO" Come again? Luke Walton, not Bill Walton, right? Luke Walton is a terrible rebounder and defender. He's a smart player, a very good passer, and that's about it. Let's not get carried away here.
The worst thing you've said in this entire thread is your comment about the Cavs. You said that since Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, and Z are statistically having worse seasons than they had last year it proves that LeBron isn't making his teammates better.
Wow.
The Cavs are in the playoffs for the first time since 1998. They won 50 games this year. Larry Hughes was hurt for nearly the entire 2nd half of the season. Drew Gooden's numbers are down because A.Varejon (sp?) gets more playing time this year, as well as the addition of D.Marshall - Gooden's minutes are down, not "LeBron isn't making him better".
As for Big Z, lets look at the stats again - this year vs last year - ppg = down 1.3 pts a game, shooting = 47% last year, 51% this year, FT shooting up 80% to 83%, rebounds, down 1 per game, minutes per game = 4.2 less this year. I fail to see anything in these stats that has anything to do with LeBron, other than shooting percentage, with LeBron getting him the ball much more this year in the pick and roll game, with Z hitting face-up shots more often.
Let's just agree to disagree. I say that while Nash is a great player, he's the beneficiary of a system in Pheonix that runs all game, which suits him perfectly, jacks up 3's like no NBA team has ever done before, and I do agree that he's had a more impressive season this year than last year, but with Amare and Marion available last year, this year's team doing as well as they did was a credit, in part, to him.
LeBron, in my opinion, should have been the MVP - statistics, team improvement, playing without #2 player for much of the 2nd half. Kobe in my opinion would be a close 2nd.
Well we have 2 main ideas here:
1) The MVP should make his player better, and
2) The MVP had more talent to work with.
I'll address each.
Ilgauskas:
1)You're right, I overlooked minutes on Z's -4 minutes/game which could very well have dropped his ppg/reb, and the FG% (+4) is significant. He has shown improvement (+1ppg/40min).
2) But can you honestly say that he isn't on par with Diaw's numbers? Many would say a wash.
Gooden:
1) While you're right he did play less minutes, I don't think Lebron has made him that much better and here's why: he averaged almost 1 less ppg (.9) and less assists (.4) than when he was in Orlando in 2004, while playing even less (.5) minutes (albeit all 3 shooting %'s increased) in Orlando from 2 years ago. I wouldn't exactly say he improved that much from Orlando (in fact 1.5ppg/40min less).
2) Is Gooden's output comparable to Raja Bell's? Many would say yes it's a wash.
Hughes:
1) I did acknowledge that he only played 1/2 the season, but should that excuse his huge drop in production? Maybe, it's hard to say. It looks bad on paper though, because he averaged almost 2 less minutes in Washington (33.8 vs 35.6) 2 years ago and still scored -3 ppg than 2 years ago (that's roughly a -5 ppg/40minutes drop). Was he playing hurt maybe?
2) Hughes has the potential to put up close to Marion numbers (22ppg last year) and his assists edge almost completely closes the rebounding gap. Shooting %'s Marion is better in FG and FT%, but Hughes is definitely better at 3 %. You could give the very slight edge to Marion.
Snow:
1) Slightly down despite playing SIX more minutes per game than last year. Consider vs last year: -0.4 ppg/40min, -1assist/40min, same rebounds/40min. The only good thing about Snow is that his FG% +2.5, although his FT% -5%.
2) Anyone on the Suns is better in production (TT, Barbosa).
Marshall:
1) Down over 2+ppg (3.5ppg/40min) despite the same amount of minutes played in Toronto, -0.5 assist and rebound/game. FG%, 3pt%, and FT% all down by 5% or more! Horrid season for him.
2) Still better production than Tim Thomas and about the same as Barbosa.
Final Thoughts:
1) Overall Lebron improved 1 player out of the five I compared. Bell, Barbosa, Diaw, Marion all either improved their FG AND 3pt% or stayed the same. 3 of the 4 experienced dramatic increases in PPG/40 minutes (except Bell) in comparison to the year before. Huge edge to Nash in player improvement.
2) Slight edge to Lebron because let's face it, nobody on either team was as bad as Eric Snow this year. The Snow/Marshall production can't compare to the TT/Barbosa combo, even if Marshall is still better than TT. Hence I'd say a slight 0.5 - 1 player edge to Lebron. However, many would theorize that is neutralized by the fact that the Cavs play in the weaker East @only 50 wins vs Suns@54 in the West.
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