Didn't see that one but Nash does that kind of stuff all the time. He has great running shots, and I have seen him make some behind his back without looking as he is falling to the floor when he was a Mav.
Didn't see that one but Nash does that kind of stuff all the time. He has great running shots, and I have seen him make some behind his back without looking as he is falling to the floor when he was a Mav.
Who above would he be ahead of then? I guess you would squeeze him in ahead of billups? There's no way that you can think the mavericks need dirk as much as the clippers need brand, the lakers need kobe, the cavs need lebron, or the suns need nash. Those teams would be a total joke without those guys. Dallas would still be at least as good as sacramento and the lakers if dirk were to take a couple weeks off. For this reason I wouldn't consider tony parker a top-tier MVP candidate either, even though he has been great this year.
Billups I guess one could argue, but I think that the team would have a lot of trouble without him.
Yeah actually I would put Dirk at the top. He lost both Nash and Finley, and the Mavs actually improved. They are top 3 team this year with Detroit and SA. Without Dirk, they would lose their top scorer and rebounder, and the only guy on the team who presents serious matchup problems with any other team in the league. He has great statistics too, for those that vote based on those.
Miramonti
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2000
- 28,653
- 100
- 106
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Actually, it's quite relevant that Nash equals the best big man in shooting %. It's rare for a guard to match the best shooting big man for obvious reasons, you didn't provide a reason it was irrelevant.Originally posted by: jjsole
I think its a pretty good hint that if you're emphasizing Nash's effectiveness because he's tied for first in a category that Jake tsakalidis leads, you're going down the wrong road. How about fantasy numbers, that indicate a players true value?
I didn't think you'd want to do that.
-----------------------------------------------
Yes, he is good at deferring responsibility to others, because if he took more responsibility himself, as well as played exhausting defense, like other true MVP candidates, his numbers would painfully less than what they are.
Funny you should bring up fantasy leagues, because they award the most value to the biggest chucker (i.e. points scored). Guess who is usually in the top 5 fantasy ratings? Kobe, Iverson, Lebron. The top chuckers in the league. And yet how many team players like Nash or any Piston will never be high in fantasy ratings? The reality: It's a "fantasy" for Kobe, Iverson, or Lebron's teams to ever compete with unselfish players on highly successful teams. Iverson has insane fantasy numbers, but I bet he wishes he was in the playoffs or even a contender for MVP.
-----------------------------------
Did you see game 1 when Nash put the dagger in the Lakers? That was deferring responsibility to others? No, he put his team on his back when it counted. Kobe choked.
Jake is in there because he doesn't take many shots and probably only takes good ones. Nash doesn't have to score because he has other shooters. If he didn't have other shooters, and spent some energy on defense, his fg%'s would plummit.
I'll never argue that Nash sucks, he's awesome for what he does, but he doesn't come close imo to warrant doing enough for 2 mvp awards. And calling Kobe a choker is a bit sensational, wouldn't you say? He's the most clutch player in the league, period, on top of all that he accomplishes for his team throughout the game.
The first MVP award for Nash was like many...sort of a recognition award like when Barkley and Malone got it over MJ in the 90's, but Nash is not close to the mvp of the league based on merit compared to all others imo.
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,928
- 143
- 106
Yeah, Jake doesn't take many shots but his % is so high because he probably dunks most of them at 7-2. Nash takes more shots than Jake per game, probably can't even dunk (never seen him), all the while shooting overall the same True Shooting % as a 7-2 dude who dunks.
Kobe is good, but in Game 1 he choked (shot around 7-22, 1-6 from 3 land). He was getting the other guys involved in the 1st half, but when Phil told him to turn it on he failed. So that night he choked, will be interesting to see if he can "score 50 or 60 points" like stupid analysts are saying. Welcome to the playoffs Kobe, where teams will actually guard/trap/double team you, we're not in Toronto anymore. I expect a huge effort from Kobe (30+, not 60 lol), but still think the Suns will take it in 6 or less because L.A. won't be able to magically reinvent their whole scoring distribution overnight. Gotta give credit to Phil for trying though.
I don't think anyone like Nash has ever been in the MVP running, not even Stockton and Kidd. Bill Simmons of ESPN claims that J.Kidd has identical numbers to Nash this year in 2002 and 2003. This is semi - accurate, because in 02 Kidd had almost identical assists but still scored 3ppg less, albeit had 3.2 rebounds more. In 03 Kidd had 1.1ppg more, but 1 less assist (9.5) but 2 more rebounds . Nobody is going to give the MVP to Kidd when he didn't reach "double double" land (9.5 assists), which is probably a little unfair but true.
Ok, granted you do agree with Simmons that the two were similar for those seasons, Nash would still get the nod because he destroys Kidd in every shooting % for those years. FG% avg (rough) Kidd was 40% vs Nash@52%, 3pt% for Kidd was 33% vs Nash@44%, FT% for Kidd was 82.5% and Nash@92%. Yes Kidd was a better defender with 1.4 more steals per game, but I still can't see how that makes up for such weak shooting %'s. Kidd was by no measure arguably the best shooter of his time but Nash is, even though many would agree both were the best passers of their time.
Miramonti
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2000
- 28,653
- 100
- 106
Nash and Kidd are definitely similar but even tho Nash is bit a better scorer, Kidd has (had) a better all around game. Kidd can (could) take over the game, altho Nash can only take over 1/2 of the game with his play. Steals are only symbolic of Kidd's defense - tight individual and team defense takes points away from the other team by holding them to a low fg%. The suns simply try to outscore their opponents, which is fun and great for everyones offensive statistics, but has yet proven to even be very successful in the playoffs.
Given that, I just can't see why a player who is so UN-most-valuable for his team *50%* of the game be MVP of the LEAGUE...twice. He's awesome but he isn't THAT great on offense to make up for that much short-coming on 50% of the game.
I love the game Kobe played the other night, only unfortunately he wasn't able to turn on his offense when he tried at the end, which he usually can. Other than that lack of execution it was a great strategy. If he played like that every game this season, the lakers would have had a much better chemistry and possibly be conference title contenders.
OK, so you live in dallas and are a fanboy I take it? Dirk ahead of LeBron and Kobe? Ridiculous. I guess I have to make an argument for michael redd now, since we apparently are required to exaggerate the quality of local players. :roll:
Finley hasn't been good for some time, certainly not in his last couple of seasons with Dallas. He's an above average bench player in SA. Jason Terry stepped into the role they wanted nash to play. Scorer who occasionally passes. 17 ppg is not bad at all. They added Jerry Stackhouse and Josh Howard has been great. I don't think Dallas is all that much worse off in terms of roster than a couple years back. The main difference is Terry vs Nash, and the way they underused Nash in Dallas, it's almost a wash.
Dirk is not a good defender, just an average one, and though he presents matchup problems, that alone is hardly enough to merit MVP. 9 rebounds, I think they would be fine just putting in a random PF. Dirk's stats are actually a little worse than yao's, if you really want to go by stats. Dirk is a better player than yao, but not as good of a defender.
Dirk's rebounds are almost entirely at the defensive end, because the guy spends so much time hanging around the perimeter hoping for an outside shot, or doing fade away jumpers. He can't crash the boards when a teammate shoots because he's not in position and can't run at the basket like a perimeter guard can, because he's not quick enough to make it back to defensive position if they don't get it. Other players are required to compensate for dirk's lack of offensive rebounds - josh howard, for example. Dirk's in the top 25 for total rebounds and not even in the top 100 for offensive rebounds.
Dwayne Wade has the same number of ORPG as dirk.
Elton Brand has about as many points, more rebounds and blocks, virtually the same number of assists, and a higher field goal percentage than dirk. Plus he's a good defender, and one of if not the best offensive rebound guys.
Dirk is not an insurmountable matchup problem even when he is a machup problem. The biggest problem is pick and rolls. There are plenty of PFs and SFs who are fast and skilled enough to guard him. The only guy who is really a matchup problem for everyone in the league is Shaq.
OMFG Kobe got ROBBED is this is true.
I guess we'll just have to settle for a Lakers Championship instead
LAKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just drove past the Forum last night.... LAKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
L
A
K
E
R
S
!!!
I guess we'll just have to settle for a Lakers Championship instead
LAKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just drove past the Forum last night.... LAKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
L
A
K
E
R
S
!!!
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,928
- 143
- 106
Just got done watching Game 2, and both Kobe and Nash had stellar performances (Nash 29pts, 9assists, 7reb and Kobe 29/10reb/5). The difference in the game was the Lakers played perfect (equalled Suns in 3's and beat them +10 in the paint while shooting a gaudy 50.7FG%), and got both calls that could have went either way down the stretch (Kobe's dunk on Nash that was clearly a charge = 3pt play, and Kwame bowling over Raja Bell on the next possession that was a no call and led to 2 more pts). Barkley said that even though LA has played 2 almost perfect games, they still lost one, so the question is can they continue to play perfect?
You say Nash isn't great on defense but I saw him take two charges in the 2nd half alone tonight (one on Odom that was called and the other on Kobe that wasn't but all the announcers agreed it was a blown call). For someone who is allegedly so bad at defense, that shouldn't be happening. Anyone who is as bad as you're describing doesn't make plays like that. You've provided no evidence that Nash is as bad as you say he is, only playing "50%" of the time is absurd. Show me some type of statistic that says Nash is as bad as you claim he is. Last I checked taking charges consistently is changing more than "1/2 of the game", it's a pure swing of momentum on the Def end.
No way Kidd's 1.5 steal differential and slight rebounding edge (2.5) makes up for getting creamed that bad in every shooting %. 5%, maybe. But -12%@3pt, -11@FG, and -9.5FT? LOL! My opinion of course, nobody's right or wrong.
*Bias Laker Fan*
Kobe got robbed:| :roll:
Whatever,one things for sure,he aint going to win it a 3rd time.
EDIT:Anyone see Kobe tea-bag Nash?
Kobe got robbed:| :roll:
Whatever,one things for sure,he aint going to win it a 3rd time.
EDIT:Anyone see Kobe tea-bag Nash?
With all due respect, taking a charge != being good at defense. IMHO the charge has become the single worst thing to happen to NBA defense. I really wish they would just take it out entirely, it has become so exploited in the NBA these days that almost nobody can take it strong to the basket without fear of somebody trying to draw a charge.
What Nash did when Kobe dunked on him was a perfect example of that, he simply ran into the spot where Kobe was going to be and stood his ground while Kobe dunked on him. Please tell me how that is good defense, it is simply exploiting a rule that should only exist when an offensive player clearly overruns the guy who is guarding him. And the Lakers got called for a whole slew of ticky-tack fouls, not to mention last games horrid calls at the end of the game. I'd say the refs have pretty much screwed up on both sides. Fact of the matter is the Lakers executed better and no doubt looked the stronger team tonight, nobody can deny that.
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,928
- 143
- 106
IMO it's great defense, you beat your man to a spot before the basket and he's not allowed to run you over, what's so hard to understand about that? Nash clearly beat Kobe to the spot and Kobe jumped into him, knocked him over, and a bad call was made. That shows court awareness and an attempt to swing momentum. Whether you think that it's "defense or not" doesn't matter. Nash is playing by the rules and playing to win on the defensive end, period. No, he's not going to lock someone down by blocking their shot or stealing the ball everytime. Taking a charge is a sign of a player who is willing to sacrifice his body for his team. That is a perfect summation of what a team player does.
Yup, the Lakers executed perfectly which is what they needed to do to even have a chance. But this was the first time in 9 tries they beat Nash... will they play perfect for 3 more games? We'll see. I somehow doubt that they will keep shooting 50+% from the field while the Suns shoot below their season averages, but you never know.
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,928
- 143
- 106
Yup, clearly a charge. Every announcer agreed that was a horrible call. It was a shame it happened in the 4th Q when it mattered. Just as bad was Raja Bell getting bowled over by Kwame on the next possession (no call) as well. A 4 pt swing in a game that tight decides it.
I can't believe a charge wasn't called on that play. And then a few plays later Kwame Brown decks Raja Bell and there isn't a call? Two of the biggest plays in the game that couldn't turned the game the Suns way. Nonetheless, the Suns' bench didn't play well enough for them to win...it happens...shot just weren't falling for some guys.
Nash played like an MVP though.
Nash played like an MVP though.
you forget a very important component. kidd was all nba defender. nash has never been better than an average defender.
kidd in his prime was one of the best defending PG's in the game.
and you make it sound like 3+ more rpg isn't a significant achievement. :roll:
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,928
- 143
- 106
1.5 steals and 2.5 rebounds don't make up for 10-12% in every shooting category and I'll explain why I think that. A good example: people used to point the finger at Iverson for shooting only 41-42% (around 45% and he would have shut them up, as he did this year) as his fatal flaw even though he was leading the league every year with 2.25-2.5 steals per game. So what would these same voters say about Kidd's horrid shooting percentages compared to Nash's phenomenal %'s?
Let's face it, the people who decide the MVP will raise an eyebrow if a player is one of the best defenders in the league and the best passer (Kidd). However, they are more impressed if a player is the best shooter in the league and the best passer (Nash). Kidd's a career 40.2% shooter and they said that Iverson was lacking at 41-42%. Also, Nash gets better every year in rebounding so Kidd's 2.5 board margin (from his best 2 years) is even a tough sell, because we probably haven't even seen Nash's best year yet (he went up almost 1 rebound this year from last).
Also, I agree with the poster above who said that Nash could easily score 30ppg if he was a shooting guard. If you saw last night's game you saw Kobe forcing more than a few ugly, off balance shots, some he would hit, most he missed (12-24 shooting). The rest of his team played flawlessly and they got all of the close calls in the 2nd half, lucky for L.A.
Dirk doesn't hang around the outside looking for shots nearly as much this season. That single statement tells me you have not been paying attention to his game this year. Avery has changed the offense and Dirk is not just a spot up guy anymore. That is a problem with many 'experts' in the media, they do not watch Dirk because he is not flashy and I think there is a bias against European players overall as being 'soft'.
Dirk's field goal percentage went up mainly because he has been developing his post up game. Avery Johnson said Dirk went from a '1' rating (on 10 pt scale) as a post player to an '8' this year, when asked recently. Even Tim Duncan and the SA coach commented that Dirk has greatly improved his post game. All you had to do was watch the last game Dallas played SA where Dirk consistently drove on Duncan in the paint, picking up points and fouls, to realize that Dirk has developed a solid inside game. You obviously, again, have not been watching closely to Mavs games this year.
Offensive rebounds is a relatively meaningless statistic, PLEASE give us a break ok?
While Dirk is an average defender, Nash is a sieve. And Kobe isn't that great either.
I would have put Lebron as even with Dirk, because he brings so much to the court besides his statistics. In fact he probably should have won the award this year. I admit to having a bias against Kobe because he is a wretched human being, but he is a phenomenal basketball player. Personally, I wouldn't have voted for him at all, but I can see why many have and I could see why he would win it.
As for being a Dallas fan, yep you got me. However at least I pay attention to each of the major players and don't make uninformed assumptions such as you have done.
Yeah he does post up more often, so does rasheed wallace, who is a better post player. But still far less than most high calibur PFs. He went from a SG disguised as a PF to a SF disguised as a PF. Maybe next year he will be PF. Also, I also included fade away jumpers, which is a lot of what he does from the post even now. He's not the sort of post player who can bowl over people nor does he have an exceptional hook shot. Fade away jumpers naturally move you away from rebounding position. Also, a good post player also has to be a good passer. He won't even get from 8 to 10 without improving his passing.
All of the other quality centers/PFs are a 10 in post up. Brand, Duncan, Pau, etc. Anyway that wasn't really a criticism of his offense, it was a criticism of his rebounding. His offense is great regardless of where on the court it comes from. It's the rebounding and defense that are a weakness. Those are major jobs of a PF, and dirk is average at both of them. He's basically the equivalent of a scoring PG, like marbury, francis, etc. Better of course. But a guy in his position is expected to be better at those things. He is not a complete player, and though his offense is exceptional, his defense and rebounding are shortcomings compared to most high-calibur players in his position.
Offensive rebounds are meaningless? Do you ever actually watch basketball? I'm sure ben wallace would be interested to hear that.
Kobe is 10x the defender that Dirk is. He's been a 1st team all defense player at least twice. He is definitely one of the better defenders in the league. He's not at the same level as MJ defensively, but then again, who is? Maybe bruce bowen, I guess.
I think one statistic they showed on TNT pretty much summed up why Kobe isn't the MVP this year. The Lakers lost 10 games this year when they were winning with less than a minute left.
There are 4 other people on the floor with kobe. He can't be everywhere. I'm guessing kwame brown had a lot to do with those 10.
:roll: How hard is it to play some fvcking defense, make your free throws, and give the ball to Kobe?
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