Steve Nash wins the MVP

[OneOfTheseDays]

The Lakers really came together and began playing as a team as the regular season ended. Kobe and Phil have turned this team of midrange players into a playoff team capable of knocking off the 2nd seeded team in the West. Anyone who watched game 2 last night could clearly see that Kobe is equally if not more deserving of that MVP trophy than Nash. What else does Kobe have to do to get an MVP? I think he's easily had his best and most productive year, Kobe won't get the MVP because there are simply too many people who hate his guts.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: wyvrn

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: wyvrn

Yeah actually I would put Dirk at the top. He lost both Nash and Finley, and the Mavs actually improved. They are top 3 team this year with Detroit and SA. Without Dirk, they would lose their top scorer and rebounder, and the only guy on the team who presents serious matchup problems with any other team in the league. He has great statistics too, for those that vote based on those.

OK, so you live in dallas and are a fanboy I take it? Dirk ahead of LeBron and Kobe? Ridiculous. I guess I have to make an argument for michael redd now, since we apparently are required to exaggerate the quality of local players. :roll:

Finley hasn't been good for some time, certainly not in his last couple of seasons with Dallas. He's an above average bench player in SA. Jason Terry stepped into the role they wanted nash to play. Scorer who occasionally passes. 17 ppg is not bad at all. They added Jerry Stackhouse and Josh Howard has been great. I don't think Dallas is all that much worse off in terms of roster than a couple years back. The main difference is Terry vs Nash, and the way they underused Nash in Dallas, it's almost a wash.

Dirk is not a good defender, just an average one, and though he presents matchup problems, that alone is hardly enough to merit MVP. 9 rebounds, I think they would be fine just putting in a random PF. Dirk's stats are actually a little worse than yao's, if you really want to go by stats. Dirk is a better player than yao, but not as good of a defender.

Dirk's rebounds are almost entirely at the defensive end, because the guy spends so much time hanging around the perimeter hoping for an outside shot, or doing fade away jumpers. He can't crash the boards when a teammate shoots because he's not in position and can't run at the basket like a perimeter guard can, because he's not quick enough to make it back to defensive position if they don't get it. Other players are required to compensate for dirk's lack of offensive rebounds - josh howard, for example. Dirk's in the top 25 for total rebounds and not even in the top 100 for offensive rebounds.

Dwayne Wade has the same number of ORPG as dirk.

Elton Brand has about as many points, more rebounds and blocks, virtually the same number of assists, and a higher field goal percentage than dirk. Plus he's a good defender, and one of if not the best offensive rebound guys.

Dirk is not an insurmountable matchup problem even when he is a machup problem. The biggest problem is pick and rolls. There are plenty of PFs and SFs who are fast and skilled enough to guard him. The only guy who is really a matchup problem for everyone in the league is Shaq.

Dirk doesn't hang around the outside looking for shots nearly as much this season. That single statement tells me you have not been paying attention to his game this year. Avery has changed the offense and Dirk is not just a spot up guy anymore. That is a problem with many 'experts' in the media, they do not watch Dirk because he is not flashy and I think there is a bias against European players overall as being 'soft'.

Dirk's field goal percentage went up mainly because he has been developing his post up game. Avery Johnson said Dirk went from a '1' rating (on 10 pt scale) as a post player to an '8' this year, when asked recently. Even Tim Duncan and the SA coach commented that Dirk has greatly improved his post game. All you had to do was watch the last game Dallas played SA where Dirk consistently drove on Duncan in the paint, picking up points and fouls, to realize that Dirk has developed a solid inside game. You obviously, again, have not been watching closely to Mavs games this year.

Offensive rebounds is a relatively meaningless statistic, PLEASE give us a break ok?

While Dirk is an average defender, Nash is a sieve. And Kobe isn't that great either.

I would have put Lebron as even with Dirk, because he brings so much to the court besides his statistics. In fact he probably should have won the award this year. I admit to having a bias against Kobe because he is a wretched human being, but he is a phenomenal basketball player. Personally, I wouldn't have voted for him at all, but I can see why many have and I could see why he would win it.

As for being a Dallas fan, yep you got me. However at least I pay attention to each of the major players and don't make uninformed assumptions such as you have done.

Torpid claims that Terry fills in nicely for Nash, but I think a major flaw to that is they traded Nash before his prime. What do fans in Dallas think about that?

Yup Dirk's post game is great this year. It would be scary to see him and Nash together again since they're both worlds better now vs back in the day.

Agree that offensive rebounds by Torpid is really reaching. Also his comparing Dirk to Yao defensively is pretty dumb, they play at different positions and one has 6 inches on the other. I don't see the correlation. However, I do agree with Torpid that if you're going to bring Dirk into the MVP discussion, then you have to bring in Elton Brand. On paper both are a wash statistically.

I think you could make more of a case for Lebron than Kobe off stats alone. But seeing that Lebron plays in the East it's a tough sell. Look at Cleveland's record against good West teams San Ant, Mem, LaC, LaL, Denver, Phoenix, and Dallas: 5 wins, 7 losses. Miami had 3 wins (2 of them Memphis) and 10 losses vs those West teams. NJ did better at 8 wins and 6 losses, the only team other than Detroit to have a winning record vs West in the East. I didn't include Detroit because they pummeled everyone, including the West (Cleveland was 1-3 vs Detroit, NJ 2-2, Miami 1-3).

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Cruisin1

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: cHeeZeFacTory
MVP?


Nash stepped in,

AND 1 baby!

Yup, clearly a charge. Every announcer agreed that was a horrible call. It was a shame it happened in the 4th Q when it mattered. Just as bad was Raja Bell getting bowled over by Kwame on the next possession (no call) as well. A 4 pt swing in a game that tight decides it.

PULEASE!!! Kwame didn't fould Bell! No one had possesion! They were scrambling for the ball...

That's why it was a close call, because possession was disputed. That still doesn't give you the right to absolutely run someone over and leave them laid out on their back.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Lakers really came together and began playing as a team as the regular season ended. Kobe and Phil have turned this team of midrange players into a playoff team capable of knocking off the 2nd seeded team in the West. Anyone who watched game 2 last night could clearly see that Kobe is equally if not more deserving of that MVP trophy than Nash. What else does Kobe have to do to get an MVP? I think he's easily had his best and most productive year, Kobe won't get the MVP because there are simply too many people who hate his guts.

Puh-leeze! Kobe choked in Game 1. He played better last night, but was 5 points under his scoring avg and Nash 10 pts was over his. Nash made all of his FT's (7-7), and shot 10-17 FG. Kobe shot 12-24 and was forcing offbalance shots or with a man in his face all game long, not to mention missing 2 FT's. Put the crack down, Nash was the only reason the Suns were in that game last night, their bench shot 1-9 (Barbosa 0 for five) and Tim Thomas/Diaw shot 9-22, way under their season avg's and way worse than they shot in Game 1. Only suckers believe all the media hype on Kobe, the media hype should be on the Laker bench that shot 7-17 and the other 4 starters who shot 19-34 combined. When have you seen them play that good?

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Lakers really came together and began playing as a team as the regular season ended. Kobe and Phil have turned this team of midrange players into a playoff team capable of knocking off the 2nd seeded team in the West. Anyone who watched game 2 last night could clearly see that Kobe is equally if not more deserving of that MVP trophy than Nash. What else does Kobe have to do to get an MVP? I think he's easily had his best and most productive year, Kobe won't get the MVP because there are simply too many people who hate his guts.

Puh-leeze! Kobe choked in Game 1. He played better last night, but was 5 points under his scoring avg and Nash 10 pts was over his. Nash made all of his FT's (7-7), and shot 10-17 FG. Kobe shot 12-24 and was forcing offbalance shots or with a man in his face all game long, not to mention missing 2 FT's. Put the crack down, Nash was the only reason the Suns were in that game last night, their bench shot 1-9 (Barbosa 0 for five) and Tim Thomas/Diaw shot 9-22, way under their season avg's and way worse than they shot in Game 1. Only suckers believe all the media hype on Kobe, the media hype should be on the Laker bench that shot 7-17 and the other 4 starters who shot 19-34 combined. When have you seen them play that good?

I'm not denying that Nash is vitally important to the Suns, without him they would probably be one of the worst teams in the NBA right now. All I'm saying is that Kobe is equally deserving of the MVP award when you look at his individual stats as well as what he and the rest of the Lakers have been able to accomplish this year. IMHO in order to win the MVP award for the second year in a row, there should be nobody else even close to consideration. When two players are so deserving of the award, I say you give to the guy who has never gotten the MVP award.

And Kobe did not choke in Game 1, he was simply too passive. I think Game 1 was all about finding out what would work against the Suns and clearly in Game 2 the Lakers exploited nearly all of the Suns' weaknesses. And the supporting cast of the Lakers is playing great..........not gonna deny that one.

The Lakers will always have a chance against the Suns because the Suns cannot play any defense and their rebounding is atrocious. If the Suns aren't shooting well their whole team falls apart. You can't win playoff basketball without good defense.

 

[tfinch2]

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Lakers really came together and began playing as a team as the regular season ended. Kobe and Phil have turned this team of midrange players into a playoff team capable of knocking off the 2nd seeded team in the West. Anyone who watched game 2 last night could clearly see that Kobe is equally if not more deserving of that MVP trophy than Nash. What else does Kobe have to do to get an MVP? I think he's easily had his best and most productive year, Kobe won't get the MVP because there are simply too many people who hate his guts.

Puh-leeze! Kobe choked in Game 1. He played better last night, but was 5 points under his scoring avg and Nash 10 pts was over his. Nash made all of his FT's (7-7), and shot 10-17 FG. Kobe shot 12-24 and was forcing offbalance shots or with a man in his face all game long, not to mention missing 2 FT's. Put the crack down, Nash was the only reason the Suns were in that game last night, their bench shot 1-9 (Barbosa 0 for five) and Tim Thomas/Diaw shot 9-22, way under their season avg's and way worse than they shot in Game 1. Only suckers believe all the media hype on Kobe, the media hype should be on the Laker bench that shot 7-17 and the other 4 starters who shot 19-34 combined. When have you seen them play that good?

I'm not denying that Nash is vitally important to the Suns, without him they would probably be one of the worst teams in the NBA right now. All I'm saying is that Kobe is equally deserving of the MVP award when you look at his individual stats as well as what he and the rest of the Lakers have been able to accomplish this year. IMHO in order to win the MVP award for the second year in a row, there should be nobody else even close to consideration. When two players are so deserving of the award, I say you give to the guy who has never gotten the MVP award.

And Kobe did not choke in Game 1, he was simply too passive. I think Game 1 was all about finding out what would work against the Suns and clearly in Game 2 the Lakers exploited nearly all of the Suns' weaknesses. And the supporting cast of the Lakers is playing great..........not gonna deny that one.

The Lakers will always have a chance against the Suns because the Suns cannot play any defense and their rebounding is atrocious. If the Suns aren't shooting well their whole team falls apart. You can't win playoff basketball without good defense.

Of course you can. Look at the Suns from last season.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Originally posted by: tfinch2

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Lakers really came together and began playing as a team as the regular season ended. Kobe and Phil have turned this team of midrange players into a playoff team capable of knocking off the 2nd seeded team in the West. Anyone who watched game 2 last night could clearly see that Kobe is equally if not more deserving of that MVP trophy than Nash. What else does Kobe have to do to get an MVP? I think he's easily had his best and most productive year, Kobe won't get the MVP because there are simply too many people who hate his guts.

Puh-leeze! Kobe choked in Game 1. He played better last night, but was 5 points under his scoring avg and Nash 10 pts was over his. Nash made all of his FT's (7-7), and shot 10-17 FG. Kobe shot 12-24 and was forcing offbalance shots or with a man in his face all game long, not to mention missing 2 FT's. Put the crack down, Nash was the only reason the Suns were in that game last night, their bench shot 1-9 (Barbosa 0 for five) and Tim Thomas/Diaw shot 9-22, way under their season avg's and way worse than they shot in Game 1. Only suckers believe all the media hype on Kobe, the media hype should be on the Laker bench that shot 7-17 and the other 4 starters who shot 19-34 combined. When have you seen them play that good?

I'm not denying that Nash is vitally important to the Suns, without him they would probably be one of the worst teams in the NBA right now. All I'm saying is that Kobe is equally deserving of the MVP award when you look at his individual stats as well as what he and the rest of the Lakers have been able to accomplish this year. IMHO in order to win the MVP award for the second year in a row, there should be nobody else even close to consideration. When two players are so deserving of the award, I say you give to the guy who has never gotten the MVP award.

And Kobe did not choke in Game 1, he was simply too passive. I think Game 1 was all about finding out what would work against the Suns and clearly in Game 2 the Lakers exploited nearly all of the Suns' weaknesses. And the supporting cast of the Lakers is playing great..........not gonna deny that one.

The Lakers will always have a chance against the Suns because the Suns cannot play any defense and their rebounding is atrocious. If the Suns aren't shooting well their whole team falls apart. You can't win playoff basketball without good defense.

Of course you can. Look at the Suns from last season.

The Suns will never win an NBA championship unless they learn how to play solid defense.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Lakers really came together and began playing as a team as the regular season ended. Kobe and Phil have turned this team of midrange players into a playoff team capable of knocking off the 2nd seeded team in the West. Anyone who watched game 2 last night could clearly see that Kobe is equally if not more deserving of that MVP trophy than Nash. What else does Kobe have to do to get an MVP? I think he's easily had his best and most productive year, Kobe won't get the MVP because there are simply too many people who hate his guts.

Puh-leeze! Kobe choked in Game 1. He played better last night, but was 5 points under his scoring avg and Nash 10 pts was over his. Nash made all of his FT's (7-7), and shot 10-17 FG. Kobe shot 12-24 and was forcing offbalance shots or with a man in his face all game long, not to mention missing 2 FT's. Put the crack down, Nash was the only reason the Suns were in that game last night, their bench shot 1-9 (Barbosa 0 for five) and Tim Thomas/Diaw shot 9-22, way under their season avg's and way worse than they shot in Game 1. Only suckers believe all the media hype on Kobe, the media hype should be on the Laker bench that shot 7-17 and the other 4 starters who shot 19-34 combined. When have you seen them play that good?

I'm not denying that Nash is vitally important to the Suns, without him they would probably be one of the worst teams in the NBA right now. All I'm saying is that Kobe is equally deserving of the MVP award when you look at his individual stats as well as what he and the rest of the Lakers have been able to accomplish this year. IMHO in order to win the MVP award for the second year in a row, there should be nobody else even close to consideration. When two players are so deserving of the award, I say you give to the guy who has never gotten the MVP award.

And Kobe did not choke in Game 1, he was simply too passive. I think Game 1 was all about finding out what would work against the Suns and clearly in Game 2 the Lakers exploited nearly all of the Suns' weaknesses. And the supporting cast of the Lakers is playing great..........not gonna deny that one.

The Lakers will always have a chance against the Suns because the Suns cannot play any defense and their rebounding is atrocious. If the Suns aren't shooting well their whole team falls apart. You can't win playoff basketball without good defense.

I was going off your statement where you said Kobe was better than Nash last night (I would lean more toward equal), which isn't true at all IMO. Kobe did involve his other players nicely at times (5 assists), but would just force shots like the old Kobe. The announcers picked up on this and were like, "why is Kobe forcing shots" and "If he makes that shot it would unreal". The main thing that the highlights will show you is the dunk over Nash, which could have gone either way and definitely was a major turning point. Other than that he had a quiet night, his teammates exploded though.

One of the things that hurt the Suns is that Sean Marion and Thomas were getting worn down on the Defensive end and that affected their offense. LA presents a big matchup problem in the paint when Odom and Kwame are on the floor since PHO doesn't have anyone that big to bang with them. So when those 2 guys both do well (+10 in the paint) and LA is matching the Suns trey for trey beyond the arc, they will be hard to beat for any team, not just the Suns. However, if the Suns can find a way to neutralize the paint and/or keep Kobe in check (Raja did well last night) and/or LA cools off beyond the arc, that's when they will win.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Torpid claims that Terry fills in nicely for Nash, but I think a major flaw to that is they traded Nash before his prime. What do fans in Dallas think about that?

Yup Dirk's post game is great this year. It would be scary to see him and Nash together again since they're both worlds better now vs back in the day.

Agree that offensive rebounds by Torpid is really reaching. Also his comparing Dirk to Yao defensively is pretty dumb, they play at different positions and one has 6 inches on the other. I don't see the correlation. However, I do agree with Torpid that if you're going to bring Dirk into the MVP discussion, then you have to bring in Elton Brand. On paper both are a wash statistically.

I think you could make more of a case for Lebron than Kobe off stats alone. But seeing that Lebron plays in the East it's a tough sell. Look at Cleveland's record against good West teams San Ant, Mem, LaC, LaL, Denver, Phoenix, and Dallas: 5 wins, 7 losses. Miami had 3 wins (2 of them Memphis) and 10 losses vs those West teams. NJ did better at 8 wins and 6 losses, the only team other than Detroit to have a winning record vs West in the East. I didn't include Detroit because they pummeled everyone, including the West (Cleveland was 1-3 vs Detroit, NJ 2-2, Miami 1-3).

Was nash really before his prime or was he simply being stagnated by the game plan, team, and coaching of Dallas? Ray Allen was clearly in his prime in Milwaukee, then seemingly faded. But in reality he hadn't faded as much as lost interest and faith in Milwaukee. He had a second wind to his career in Seattle. It's hard to tell whether Nash was simply not as good in Dallas or whether for various reasons he was not used as well. I think it was Dallas more than Nash. They had a lot of ego problems on that team, and possibly in the coaching position as well. A lot of that has gone away this year.

Offensive rebounds is not reaching, if you are comparing Dirk to PFs like Brand and Duncan. It's part of the job of PFs. Dirk is like a guard when it comes to offensive rebounds. He doesn't really even put in an effort. The effort Brand, Wallace, Duncan, etc. put into offensive rebounds pays off big time in many games. Fortunately he is more or less forced to play a true PF or SF position on defense, or he'd have virtually zero rebounds.

If you are comparing him to lebron and kobe, ORPG are meaningless, and you should compare assists, an area where he is even worse.

Since when does size rule out comparison? I guess Earl Boykins is the MVP then. Yao plays a different position than Dirk, but then again so does everyone. Dirk has played center before numerous times. There really isn't a natural position for his style of offense, I think SF is close.

The point was that there are a lot of players who compare favorably to dirk statistically. Dirk's greatness has little to do with statistics. It's not really even about his offense, although that is obviously a big factor. It's about performing when it counts, being invaluable to the team, and making players better. But I think that other players do this even more than Dirk.

Lebron has a weak supporting cast compared to Billups, Nash, and Nowitzki. It's hard to base MVP solely on the team's performance on heavy rosters in the west.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Torpid claims that Terry fills in nicely for Nash, but I think a major flaw to that is they traded Nash before his prime. What do fans in Dallas think about that?

Yup Dirk's post game is great this year. It would be scary to see him and Nash together again since they're both worlds better now vs back in the day.

Agree that offensive rebounds by Torpid is really reaching. Also his comparing Dirk to Yao defensively is pretty dumb, they play at different positions and one has 6 inches on the other. I don't see the correlation. However, I do agree with Torpid that if you're going to bring Dirk into the MVP discussion, then you have to bring in Elton Brand. On paper both are a wash statistically.

I think you could make more of a case for Lebron than Kobe off stats alone. But seeing that Lebron plays in the East it's a tough sell. Look at Cleveland's record against good West teams San Ant, Mem, LaC, LaL, Denver, Phoenix, and Dallas: 5 wins, 7 losses. Miami had 3 wins (2 of them Memphis) and 10 losses vs those West teams. NJ did better at 8 wins and 6 losses, the only team other than Detroit to have a winning record vs West in the East. I didn't include Detroit because they pummeled everyone, including the West (Cleveland was 1-3 vs Detroit, NJ 2-2, Miami 1-3).

Was nash really before his prime or was he simply being stagnated by the game plan, team, and coaching of Dallas? Ray Allen was clearly in his prime in Milwaukee, then seemingly faded. But in reality he hadn't faded as much as lost interest and faith in Milwaukee. He had a second wind to his career in Seattle. It's hard to tell whether Nash was simply not as good in Dallas or whether for various reasons he was not used as well. I think it was Dallas more than Nash. They had a lot of ego problems on that team, and possibly in the coaching position as well. A lot of that has gone away this year.

Offensive rebounds is not reaching, if you are comparing Dirk to PFs like Brand and Duncan. It's part of the job of PFs. Dirk is like a guard when it comes to offensive rebounds. He doesn't really even put in an effort. The effort Brand, Wallace, Duncan, etc. put into offensive rebounds pays off big time in many games. Fortunately he is more or less forced to play a true PF or SF position on defense, or he'd have virtually zero rebounds.

If you are comparing him to lebron and kobe, ORPG are meaningless, and you should compare assists, an area where he is even worse.

Since when does size rule out comparison? I guess Earl Boykins is the MVP then. Yao plays a different position than Dirk, but then again so does everyone. Dirk has played center before numerous times. There really isn't a natural position for his style of offense, I think SF is close.

The point was that there are a lot of players who compare favorably to dirk statistically. Dirk's greatness has little to do with statistics. It's not really even about his offense, although that is obviously a big factor. It's about performing when it counts, being invaluable to the team, and making players better. But I think that other players do this even more than Dirk.

Lebron has a weak supporting cast compared to Billups, Nash, and Nowitzki. It's hard to base MVP solely on the team's performance on heavy rosters in the west.

Nash was definitely before his prime at Dallas just looking at stats alone. In his last 4 years at Dallas, he shot 42% 3pt vs 43.5% in 2 seasons with PHO. FG%: 47.6 vs 50.7. Assists: 7.78 vs 11. You'll see that even though his ppg is slightly down from Dallas, his assists jumped way up by 3.22 and the 3.1% better FG shooting. So he's scoring a little less but making more shots when he does shoot (smarter selection/deadlier accuracy), and getting teammates involved much more than Dallas. On paper it looks like he's much better.

I think Brand is slightly better than Dirk overall, but I would want Dirk with the ball at the end of the game, I agree.

The whole size thing matters when you're comparing defensive efforts of a Forward to a Center. If both are All Stars, the center should have gaudier numbers strictly due to position since they will have more swats. Extra height is an advantage when both are All Stars. For example, why is Kobe a better defender than AI even though AI will avg one more stealpg than Kobe? Kobe's extra 6 to 8 inch height advantage is huge, no way AI can compete from a shotblocking/wingspan perspective (you could apply the same perspective to the smaller Nash/Kobe too). That's why comparing Yao to Dirk is irrelevant, especially since Yao isn't even in contention for MVP. Of course Yao's going to have more shots blocked per game, and should have more than most forwards in the NBA unless they're 1st/2nd All Def. Team. The real question is, how did Yao/Dirk compare to other All Stars at the same position?

Lebron had a decent supporting cast. Hughes (15.5/4.5reb/3.6ass) is comparable Odom (15/9/5.5) and Marion (21.8/11.8/1.8), especially since his numbers dropped like a rock this year: Dropped 6.5ppg, 1.8 reb, 1.1assists, 2.1%FG. I know he only played for 1/2 the season but he's capable of putting up Marion ppg when healthy.

Gooden's stats (10.7/8.4/.7) are comparable to Smush Parker (11/3/3) and Raja Bell(14.8/3.2/2.6) especially considering the fact he's down down from a year ago too: 3.7ppg and about 1 less assist.

Ilgauskas's numbers (15.6/7.6/1/1.75block) are better than Mihm (10.4/6.4/1/1.25block) and comparable to Diaw (13/7/6/1block) especially considering the fact he's slightly down by 1.3ppg/1 assist/blocks, yet slightly up in FG%.

Snow's stats (5/2.5/4) are slightly up, and he's comparable to Walton (5/3.5/2.5) and a little worse than T.Thomas (11/5/0).

Benches aside (don't have time to do that), I don't think 1 team has more to work with than the others. I do find it interesting though, that 3 of Cleveland's big guns are all down in some important statistical categories. Is Lebron making them better? Not exactly... yet Nash's Suns, every one of the starters are having career years in what is, for many of them, their first year in PHO. Coincidence?

 

[torpid]

There's no doubt that Nash is performing better statistically and otherwise. What I am not sure of, though, is whether it is because he has improved or just because of the team and attitude. That's why I mentioned Ray Allen. Or it could be both - being in a new team with a new attitude inspired him to improve. Kind of like how Shaq is relatively thin and in better shape over in Miami.

 

[KeithTalent]

I think it will show that Nash won because votes were split between Bron and Kobe. When you have two strong candidates like that, often times the third, weaker, candidate slips through and wins.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I think it will show that Nash won because votes were split between Bron and Kobe. When you have two strong candidates like that, often times the third, weaker, candidate slips through and wins.

I don't know if that's necessarily true, because in the past week most analysts on ESPN were writing for Nash to win it (not sure if they actually had votes). Skip Bayless (who I usually cannot stand but his article is logical and backed by facts): Text

Marc Stein:
Text

Even before that on March 23rd, when the Suns had 45 wins, Tom Tolbert, Ken Shouler, Jim O'Brien, Tim Legler, Rich Bucher, and Chris Broussard all picked Nash early. I doubt the last 10 games changed their mind much.
Text

Hubie Brown picked Nash a week ago, as did this L.A. Times columnist here: Text

Some informative/funny stuff from Hubie and columnist:
"Me ? just me ? I'm picking Steve Nash," Brown said. "The reason, I said, they have seven new guys, six of them in their top eight scoring, seven guys have had career years. I said he's answered the bell.

"He shot 50% [from the field], 40% [on three-pointers] and 92% [from the free-throw line]. Only three other guys in the history of the game have done that: Bird, Reggie Miller and Mark Price. So I said: You have to understand what he's doing. The team won 62 games last year, they won 52 already this year and they still have not had Kurt Thomas [for 27 games] or [Amare] Stoudemire" for 77 games.

I spent Sunday morning going over this confusing race and arrived at Nash as well.

While Bryant has the advantage of willpower, he also has the luxury of volume; he's taken almost 300 more shots this season compared to runner-up Allen Iverson. (Iverson's 42% shooting in 2000-01 is the only MVP since 1980 to shoot lower than Bryant's number this season.)

Nash won the MVP with averages of 15.5 points and 11.5 assists last year. This season he's at 19 points and 10.5 assists.

To watch Nash feed his teammates and inspire them to run the court because they know they will be rewarded with the rock is to see teamwork exemplified. I call Nash Mr. Drummond, because I haven't seen a white man take such good care of black people since "Diff'rent Strokes."

 

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I think it will show that Nash won because votes were split between Bron and Kobe. When you have two strong candidates like that, often times the third, weaker, candidate slips through and wins.

I don't know if that's necessarily true, because in the past week most analysts on ESPN were writing for Nash to win it (not sure if they actually had votes). Skip Bayless (who I usually cannot stand but his article is logical and backed by facts): Text

Marc Stein:
Text

Even before that on March 23rd, when the Suns had 45 wins, Tom Tolbert, Ken Shouler, Jim O'Brien, Tim Legler, Rich Bucher, and Chris Broussard all picked Nash early. I doubt the last 10 games changed their mind much.
Text

Hubie Brown picked Nash a week ago, as did this L.A. Times columnist here: Text

Some informative/funny stuff from Hubie and columnist:
"Me ? just me ? I'm picking Steve Nash," Brown said. "The reason, I said, they have seven new guys, six of them in their top eight scoring, seven guys have had career years. I said he's answered the bell.

"He shot 50% [from the field], 40% [on three-pointers] and 92% [from the free-throw line]. Only three other guys in the history of the game have done that: Bird, Reggie Miller and Mark Price. So I said: You have to understand what he's doing. The team won 62 games last year, they won 52 already this year and they still have not had Kurt Thomas [for 27 games] or [Amare] Stoudemire" for 77 games.

I spent Sunday morning going over this confusing race and arrived at Nash as well.

While Bryant has the advantage of willpower, he also has the luxury of volume; he's taken almost 300 more shots this season compared to runner-up Allen Iverson. (Iverson's 42% shooting in 2000-01 is the only MVP since 1980 to shoot lower than Bryant's number this season.)

Nash won the MVP with averages of 15.5 points and 11.5 assists last year. This season he's at 19 points and 10.5 assists.

To watch Nash feed his teammates and inspire them to run the court because they know they will be rewarded with the rock is to see teamwork exemplified. I call Nash Mr. Drummond, because I haven't seen a white man take such good care of black people since "Diff'rent Strokes."

Well I think Mr. Brown may be off his rocker a bit.

Don't get me wrong, I have no real problem with Nash winning it again (and there are some compelling arguments in those articles), because the voting is so subjective. Everyone has their own definition of what makes someone the MVP, who's to say who the right or wrong pick is. That said, if I were voting, using my personal definition of MVP, it would be (grudgingly) Kobe. Nash is great in many ways, but the defense thing really kills me, plus I think Kobe was just more valuable to his team.

 

[NYHoustonman]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I think it will show that Nash won because votes were split between Bron and Kobe. When you have two strong candidates like that, often times the third, weaker, candidate slips through and wins.

I don't know if that's necessarily true, because in the past week most analysts on ESPN were writing for Nash to win it (not sure if they actually had votes). Skip Bayless (who I usually cannot stand but his article is logical and backed by facts): Text

Marc Stein:
Text

Even before that on March 23rd, when the Suns had 45 wins, Tom Tolbert, Ken Shouler, Jim O'Brien, Tim Legler, Rich Bucher, and Chris Broussard all picked Nash early. I doubt the last 10 games changed their mind much.
Text

Hubie Brown picked Nash a week ago, as did this L.A. Times columnist here: Text

Some informative/funny stuff from Hubie and columnist:
"Me ? just me ? I'm picking Steve Nash," Brown said. "The reason, I said, they have seven new guys, six of them in their top eight scoring, seven guys have had career years. I said he's answered the bell.

"He shot 50% [from the field], 40% [on three-pointers] and 92% [from the free-throw line]. Only three other guys in the history of the game have done that: Bird, Reggie Miller and Mark Price. So I said: You have to understand what he's doing. The team won 62 games last year, they won 52 already this year and they still have not had Kurt Thomas [for 27 games] or [Amare] Stoudemire" for 77 games.

I spent Sunday morning going over this confusing race and arrived at Nash as well.

While Bryant has the advantage of willpower, he also has the luxury of volume; he's taken almost 300 more shots this season compared to runner-up Allen Iverson. (Iverson's 42% shooting in 2000-01 is the only MVP since 1980 to shoot lower than Bryant's number this season.)

Nash won the MVP with averages of 15.5 points and 11.5 assists last year. This season he's at 19 points and 10.5 assists.

To watch Nash feed his teammates and inspire them to run the court because they know they will be rewarded with the rock is to see teamwork exemplified. I call Nash Mr. Drummond, because I haven't seen a white man take such good care of black people since "Diff'rent Strokes."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2411683

IMHO, Kobe got robbed. I think he made more of a difference for the Lakers than Nash did for the Suns, fairly easily. It's down to opinion in a race this close, but I just can't see Kobe not being the MVP.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I think it will show that Nash won because votes were split between Bron and Kobe. When you have two strong candidates like that, often times the third, weaker, candidate slips through and wins.

I don't know if that's necessarily true, because in the past week most analysts on ESPN were writing for Nash to win it (not sure if they actually had votes). Skip Bayless (who I usually cannot stand but his article is logical and backed by facts): Text

Marc Stein:
Text

Even before that on March 23rd, when the Suns had 45 wins, Tom Tolbert, Ken Shouler, Jim O'Brien, Tim Legler, Rich Bucher, and Chris Broussard all picked Nash early. I doubt the last 10 games changed their mind much.
Text

Hubie Brown picked Nash a week ago, as did this L.A. Times columnist here: Text

Some informative/funny stuff from Hubie and columnist:
"Me ? just me ? I'm picking Steve Nash," Brown said. "The reason, I said, they have seven new guys, six of them in their top eight scoring, seven guys have had career years. I said he's answered the bell.

"He shot 50% [from the field], 40% [on three-pointers] and 92% [from the free-throw line]. Only three other guys in the history of the game have done that: Bird, Reggie Miller and Mark Price. So I said: You have to understand what he's doing. The team won 62 games last year, they won 52 already this year and they still have not had Kurt Thomas [for 27 games] or [Amare] Stoudemire" for 77 games.

I spent Sunday morning going over this confusing race and arrived at Nash as well.

While Bryant has the advantage of willpower, he also has the luxury of volume; he's taken almost 300 more shots this season compared to runner-up Allen Iverson. (Iverson's 42% shooting in 2000-01 is the only MVP since 1980 to shoot lower than Bryant's number this season.)

Nash won the MVP with averages of 15.5 points and 11.5 assists last year. This season he's at 19 points and 10.5 assists.

To watch Nash feed his teammates and inspire them to run the court because they know they will be rewarded with the rock is to see teamwork exemplified. I call Nash Mr. Drummond, because I haven't seen a white man take such good care of black people since "Diff'rent Strokes."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2411683

IMHO, Kobe got robbed. I think he made more of a difference for the Lakers than Nash did for the Suns, fairly easily. It's down to opinion in a race this close, but I just can't see Kobe not being the MVP.

Yeah it's pretty much opinion. However, I will say about Kobe: He wasn't the best passer and shooter in the league, he didn't lead his team to over 50 wins with a comparably shtty team, he didn't make 6 of his players better than last year, and he would have the worst FG% of any MVP since AI won it. Last but not least, he isn't as smart as Nash (i.e. forcing shots, finding the open man, court awareness to take a charge).

 

[Azndude2190]

Originally posted by: tfinch2
I think one statistic they showed on TNT pretty much summed up why Kobe isn't the MVP this year. The Lakers lost 10 games this year when they were winning with less than a minute left.

No the reason why Kobe wasnt MVP is because the people that chose MVP just hate him. Say what you want about Kobe being selfish and what not but the fact of the matter is....81/62/35.4 dont lie.Add to that the fact that the Lakers went from lottery team to a respectable 45-win,7th seed in the West.Whats even more rediculous is how much Nash is being overrated.2 MVP's yet 0 rings and 0 Final appearances.They lost 10 games because of the teams inexperience not Kobe.I can't believe you actually would put that at fault at Kobe.And its not like Nash hasnt screwed up on something.

Kobe got robbed plain and simple.But honestly I dont really care because Kobe is a future HOF. As for the whiny Suns fans in this thread.PULLEESE.The Lakers just out worked you on defense.How bout the countless times that Kobe got hacked by Bell and no call.

 

[KeithTalent]

It's funny, the more articles and opinions I read, the more I start to lean towards Bron. I have a feeling his age is part of the reason he did not get greater support, but I am just speculating. No worries though, I'm sure he will have several MVP trophys on his mantle by the time he retires.

 

[Azndude2190]

And for the people who thought Kobe's nasty dunk was a offensive foul...

Blocks/Charge: A block/charge foul occurs when a defender tries to get in front of his man to stop him from going in that direction. If he does not get into a legal defensive position and contact occurs, it is a blocking foul. If he gets to a legal position and the offensive player runs into him it is an offensive foul. In both situations, if the contact is minimal, no foul may be called. To get into a legal position defending against the dribbler, the defender just needs to get in front of him. On a drive to the basket, the defender must get to his position before the shooter starts his upward shooting motion. For most other cases, the defender must get into position and allow enough distance for the offensive player to stop and/or change direction.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent
It's funny, the more articles and opinions I read, the more I start to lean towards Bron. I have a feeling his age is part of the reason he did not get greater support, but I am just speculating. No worries though, I'm sure he will have several MVP trophys on his mantle by the time he retires.

I actually think it has more to do with the team's performance. If the cavs had been in a different division and won that division, I think it might have made a difference. They were just too overshadowed by detroit this year.

 

[Rudee]

You'd think the guy can afford some shampoo and conditioner for that greasy hair of his.

 

[wyvrn]

Well now that Nash is whining about not getting foul calls and doing his normal playoff wearout routine, and the Lakers are about to bounce the Suns from the playoffs, does this change anyone's mind on whether Nash is a deserving MVP candidate?

If the Suns could play some defense, it would be a different series. I mean cmon, the Lakers???

 

[preslove]

I turned on the game right before the last tip off to Kobe. OMG Kobe's last shot looked like something MJ would do. Too bad he's such a prima donna.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: wyvrn
Well now that Nash is whining about not getting foul calls and doing his normal playoff wearout routine, and the Lakers are about to bounce the Suns from the playoffs, does this change anyone's mind on whether Nash is a deserving MVP candidate?

If the Suns could play some defense, it would be a different series. I mean cmon, the Lakers???

Doesn't change anything for me. They would have been swept without nash.

The playoffs have demonstrated to me that my rankings were about right. Except that Pao has kind of sucked.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: wyvrn
Well now that Nash is whining about not getting foul calls and doing his normal playoff wearout routine, and the Lakers are about to bounce the Suns from the playoffs, does this change anyone's mind on whether Nash is a deserving MVP candidate?

If the Suns could play some defense, it would be a different series. I mean cmon, the Lakers???

Nash never whined about anything, he was a class act after the game.

No, it doesn't change anyone's mind since the MVP applies to the regular season, besides Nash has outplayed Kobe in every game except the last (Nash 3, Kobe 1).

Raja Bell has been playing defense in shutting down Kobe for 3 games and 3 quarters, Diaw and Marion have been uninspiring. LA's big men are having a field day (Odom gets player of the game besides Kobe for the last shot yesterday).