Stephen Hawking: "I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS"

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
A couple weeks ago, Investor's Business Daily (which apparently thought the WSJ editorial page was too liberal) made the following outrageous claim when talking (read: lying) about the so called 'death panel' in the health care proposal floating about:

People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/I...spx?id=333933006516877 (the editorial has since been updated reflect the fact that hawking DOES live in England, but curiously doesn't admit that the NHS treats him and keeps him alive)

Apparently Stephen Hawking knows a little bit more about his own whereabouts than IBD does:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/poli...hen-hawking-paul-rowen

"I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS, I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived."

The reason why we won't ever have meaningful healthcare reform is because the right (and the insurance companies) lie about it all the time and it's effective.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,055
48,050
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Investor's Business Daily is also the publication that said this bill would outlaw private insurance. They aren't exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer, and their editorial control obviously leaves something to be desired.

I wonder if they thought he was American because his voice box didn't have an English accent?

NOTE TO INVESTORS BUSINESS DAILY: STEPHEN HAWKING IS ALSO NOT A ROBOT EVEN THOUGH HE SOUNDS LIKE ONE.
 

Athena

Golden Member
Apr 9, 2001
1,484
0
0
If you want to believe that the UK and Canada are killing people, you take anything that proves your point at face value. It doesn't matter how many Brits or Canadians stand up to debunk the myths, someone always "knows someone who heard that..."

You cannot teach someone who has closed his ears and eyes to the truth.
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,554
2
76
50% higher cancer survival rates in America compared with Great Britain.

That's all the proof you ever need.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,055
48,050
136
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
50% higher cancer survival rates in America compared with Great Britain.

That's all the proof you ever need.

Ridiculous falsehood already debunked in other threads.
 

imported_inspire

Senior member
Jun 29, 2006
986
0
0
Originally posted by: Phokus
A couple weeks ago, Investor's Business Daily (which apparently thought the WSJ editorial page was too liberal) made the following outrageous claim when talking (read: lying) about the so called 'death panel' in the health care proposal floating about:

People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/I...spx?id=333933006516877 (the editorial has since been updated reflect the fact that hawking DOES live in England, but curiously doesn't admit that the NHS treats him and keeps him alive)

Apparently Stephen Hawking knows a little bit more about his own whereabouts than IBD does:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/poli...hen-hawking-paul-rowen

"I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS, I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived."

The reason why we won't ever have meaningful healthcare reform is because the right (and the insurance companies) lie about it all the time and it's effective.


No, dude - the reason why is because the left wants an all-or-nothing reform that causes too much damned upheaval at once, rather than addressing specific problems one at a time. If they really wanted to get it done, they'd take some time, rather than screaming "CRISIS!!!" all over the goddamned media.

Way to polarize the issue just like IBD did, though - you're in the same box as them, just a different side.
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: Athena
If you want to believe that the UK and Canada are killing people, you take anything that proves your point at face value. It doesn't matter how many Brits or Canadians stand up to debunk the myths, someone always "knows someone who heard that..."

You cannot teach someone who has closed his ears and eyes to the truth.

Go Look up Canada's own #'s on how many CT scanners ond MRI machines they have per person in Canada compared to the US. Then compair wait times. Use the governments numbers. The numbers are shocking. I need to keep this link as a favorite sorry!

I used to work for a small canadian company. The big wigs would come to visit us for a few hours in the States before going to and have a procedure done at our local hospital then go home... Why? Wait times... And they could afford to get it done here with out the wait.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
50% higher cancer survival rates in America compared with Great Britain.

That's all the proof you ever need.

Ridiculous falsehood already debunked in other threads.

I don't know which statistics you guys are talking about, but the right has already been caught lying about cancer survival statistics between the US/England once already... to think they did it again is unbelievable:


On July 30, 2007, Rudy Giuliani's 2008 presidential campaign named Gratzer as one of his five key health care policy advisors, along with: Hoover Institution senior fellow Dan Kessler, Hoover Institution senior fellow Scott Atlas, Pacific Research Institute president and CEO Sally Pipes, and The Moran Company founder and president Donald Moran.[25]

On July 31, 2007, one day after naming his health care advisors, Giuliani, the 2008 Republican presidential front-runner, unveiled his health care plan in Rochester, New Hampshire, attacked the plans of Democratic presidential candidates as socialized medicine that was European and socialist,[26] and?citing incorrect numbers?said his chances of surviving prostate cancer had been 82% in the United States, but would have only been 44% in England under socialized medicine[27] (the actual five-year relative survival rates for localized prostate cancer were comparable in the two countries: 100% in the U.S. and 99% in England).[28] Giuliani repeated his false claims in campaign speeches for three months[29][30][31] before making them in a radio advertisement.[32][33]

After the radio ad began running on October 29, 2007,[34] FactCheck.org,[35] The Washington Post,[36] and PolitiFact.com[37] consulted leading prostate cancer experts and cancer statisticians who found Giuliani's cancer "survival rates" to be false and misleading fabricated nonsense numbers obtained from an opinion article by Gratzer in the Summer 2007 issue of the Manhattan Institute's City Journal that had said: "Five-year cancer survival rates bear this out... The survival rate for prostate cancer is 81.2% here, yet 61.7% in France and down to 44.3% in England?a striking variation."[38]

Gratzer responded[39] by defending his "snapshot" method of calculating "survival rates" from cancer mortality and incidence statistics as the method also used by libertarian economist John Goodman, co-founder and president of the conservative National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA), by Republican free-market economist June O'Neill, and by U.S. Constitutional historian and self-described health policy expert Betsy McCaughey, a former John M. Olin fellow at the Manhattan Institute. Gratzer said his "survival rates" were one minus the "mortality ratios" (not mortality ratios as used in epidemiology) calculated and presented in Goodman's 2004 book Lives at Risk[40] (Gratzer is noted in the book's acknowledgements as one of its four reviewers?from four conservative think tanks co-founded, like Goodman's NCPA, by Antony Fisher)[41] and duplicated in Gratzer's 2006 book The Cure.[42]

Gratzer cited[39] McCaughey's October 2007 NCPA Brief Analysis[43] giving her analysis of a September 2007 O'Neill NBER Working Paper[44] (calculating "survival rates" from cancer mortality and incidence statistics) and McCaughey's analysis of a September 2007 Lancet Oncology article[45] comparing five-year relative survival rate estimates for sixteen types of cancer diagnosed from 2000?2002 in nine European countries,[46] parts of nine other European countries,[47] and parts of the United States.[48] For 14 of 16 types of cancer, a European country had the highest survival rate; for 2 of 16 types of cancer: colorectal cancer[49] and prostate cancer,[50] the U.S. had the highest survival rate.[45] The Lancet Oncology article said: "That we found a 5-year relative survival for prostate cancer as high as 99.3% in the USA suggests that the increase in survival is largely an artefact from the introduction of screening of prostate-specific antigen?although, we cannot establish the effect that this artefact will have on mortality."[45]

The Washington Post[51] and FactCheck.org[52] again consulted leading prostate cancer experts and cancer statisticians who found no merit in Gratzer's response. Peter Albertsen, professor and chief of urology at the University of Connecticut Health Center called calculations such as those by Gratzer, Goodman, O'Neill, and McCaughey "complete nonsense" and a "very dangerous thing to do."[52] Gerard Anderson, professor of health policy and management at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health said: "You would get an F in epidemiology at Johns Hopkins if you did that calculation."[51]

A month later, The New York Times belatedly declared Giuliani and Gratzer's statistics false,[33][53] and Giuliani and Gratzer's false statistics made the worst of 2007 lists in The Times and The Washington Post.[54]
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,819
1,126
126
Originally posted by: Athena
If you want to believe that the UK and Canada are killing people, you take anything that proves your point at face value. It doesn't matter how many Brits or Canadians stand up to debunk the myths, someone always "knows someone who heard that..."

You cannot teach someone who has closed his ears and eyes to the truth.

sadly, you have just given the BIO of many of the right leaning posters here.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
PHOKUS LIVES! I was beginning to worry...

I'm busy buying a house :)

But don't worry, i'll still devote what little time i have to debunking rightwing bullshit.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,101
5,640
126
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: Athena
If you want to believe that the UK and Canada are killing people, you take anything that proves your point at face value. It doesn't matter how many Brits or Canadians stand up to debunk the myths, someone always "knows someone who heard that..."

You cannot teach someone who has closed his ears and eyes to the truth.

Go Look up Canada's own #'s on how many CT scanners ond MRI machines they have per person in Canada compared to the US. Then compair wait times. Use the governments numbers. The numbers are shocking. I need to keep this link as a favorite sorry!

I used to work for a small canadian company. The big wigs would come to visit us for a few hours in the States before going to and have a procedure done at our local hospital then go home... Why? Wait times... And they could afford to get it done here with out the wait.

CT Scanners and MRI's don't Heal people.
 

JKing106

Platinum Member
Mar 19, 2009
2,193
0
0
*Listens as the Neocon fanboys google furiously for some anecdote to refute facts.*
 
May 28, 2006
149
0
0
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: Athena
If you want to believe that the UK and Canada are killing people, you take anything that proves your point at face value. It doesn't matter how many Brits or Canadians stand up to debunk the myths, someone always "knows someone who heard that..."

You cannot teach someone who has closed his ears and eyes to the truth.

Go Look up Canada's own #'s on how many CT scanners ond MRI machines they have per person in Canada compared to the US. Then compair wait times. Use the governments numbers. The numbers are shocking. I need to keep this link as a favorite sorry!

I used to work for a small canadian company, and I wear a big wig... Why? Wait times...


Link?
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
PHOKUS LIVES! I was beginning to worry...

I'm busy buying a house :)

But don't worry, i'll still devote what little time i have to debunking rightwing bullshit.
Gratz on the house!

Welcome back...your balanced perspective and nonpartisan objectivity have been sorely missed. ;)
 

ZeGermans

Banned
Dec 14, 2004
907
0
0
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: Athena
If you want to believe that the UK and Canada are killing people, you take anything that proves your point at face value. It doesn't matter how many Brits or Canadians stand up to debunk the myths, someone always "knows someone who heard that..."

You cannot teach someone who has closed his ears and eyes to the truth.

Go Look up Canada's own #'s on how many CT scanners ond MRI machines they have per person in Canada compared to the US. Then compair wait times. Use the governments numbers. The numbers are shocking. I need to keep this link as a favorite sorry!

I used to work for a small canadian company. The big wigs would come to visit us for a few hours in the States before going to and have a procedure done at our local hospital then go home... Why? Wait times... And they could afford to get it done here with out the wait.

The wait time for non-serious surgery is 6 weeks. For non-important MRI/CT scans it's 6 weeks. For serious shit there's no wait. They have no medical bankruptcies and their life expectancies are longer than ours (unless like most republicans you only count minority infant moralities as 3/5ths of a person)
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
Originally posted by: JKing106
*Listens as the Neocon fanboys google furiously for some anecdote to refute facts.*
Instead of doing that...I googled 'JKing106' and and came up empty....how curious is that?
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
91
I wouldnt be here today if it werent for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.


Prove me wrong.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
PHOKUS LIVES! I was beginning to worry...

I'm busy buying a house :)

But don't worry, i'll still devote what little time i have to debunking rightwing bullshit.
Gratz on the house!

Welcome back...your balanced perspective and nonpartisan objectivity have been sorely missed. ;)

pfft, being nonpartisan and balanced is overrated, as long as I continue to have science and facts on my side, i'm good to go :D
 

Athena

Golden Member
Apr 9, 2001
1,484
0
0
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
50% higher cancer survival rates in America compared with Great Britain.

That's not actually true -- there are higher survival rates for some types of cancers and areas and lower for others.

That's all the proof you ever need.

Really? Some people would argue that overall life expectancy or higher infant mortality rates might be more important than survival rates for old people with end of life cancers.

Others might be troubled by the the fact that the US seems to be the only country with rising rates of deaths due to asthma.

Still others don't understand why the US has the lowest survival rate for kidney transplants and the highest rate of Hepatits B.

Bottom line, you can't discard any possible solution based on a single, out of context statistic. There are hundreds of international comparative healthcare studies and every one of them has the same conclusions: the average US citizen gets less care for more money than in any other industrialized country.

If you are only going to read the articles that support your preconceptions, you better hope that breast cancer is the only critical medical event in your future. On the other hand, if you have a family history of kidney problems though, you might want to consider moving to Canada since they have the best record in that area.

Edit: Others might be troubled by the the fact that the US seems to be the only [industrialized] country with rising rates of deaths due to asthma.
 

JKing106

Platinum Member
Mar 19, 2009
2,193
0
0
*Listens as the Neocon fanboys google furiously for some anecdote to refute facts.*
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Hawking clearly has received great service from the NHS. People in similar conditions here in the US get great treatment as well. What's the point of this thread?