Stats and levels need to die in RPG

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Hmmm, I liked the OP's ideas. A lack of stats and numbers would be refreshing.

The numbers would still be there; they would just be behind the scenes. You would just have to do more digging to find out that yes, this Magic Mythril Sword does more damage than your Rusted Iron Dagger, or that you can now take three hits from that dragon instead of two. I'd rather have the numbers up front to let me know my character is advancing than have to dig through a bunch of spreadsheets.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

For a moment, cease to consider weapons, and now consider how you're going to judge armor in this setup.

Well, this armor I get hit, and I limp slightly but bleed from my earlobes, but in this armor I get bruised ribs and a broken shin bone.

....you'd be spending forever in hospitals just to figure out how not to get killed.

 

[Russwinters]

Most mmos use really high stats, etc.

I would like to see them go back to more of a D&D approach, where a stat of 20+ is really good. Instead of 2000+

 

[pontifex]

For a moment, cease to consider weapons, and now consider how you're going to judge armor in this setup.

Well, this armor I get hit, and I limp slightly but bleed from my earlobes, but in this armor I get bruised ribs and a broken shin bone.

....you'd be spending forever in hospitals just to figure out how not to get killed.

the more coverage and the thicker/harder the material, the better would seem pretty simple, no?

 

[crownjules]

Most mmos use really high stats, etc.

I would like to see them go back to more of a D&D approach, where a stat of 20+ is really good. Instead of 2000+

It's called MUDflation, because it originally began happening in the precursors to MMOs. As you add harder content, it becomes necessary to increase the power of the PCs to match the new challenges. This means giving them higher levels, more powerful abilities, and access to better items.

In long running games like EQ and WoW, this leads to ridiculous stat boosting.

 

[Sureshot324]

the more coverage and the thicker/harder the material, the better would seem pretty simple, no?

This would severely limit the creativity of the weapon/armour designers, especially if it's a long game where you go through a lot of different gear.

 

[Lorne]

I do like the stats in games, But I think he's also on to something here.
Best way would to introduce it in a game and see where something like that goes, But concerns would be a crappy programmer would run it into the ground before it hit big, Ive seen many a game with a unique good idea flop and the idea never to be introduced again.

Blind skills and physique could be worked in but there are alot of varibles to introduce and if there not all put in then it will fail because half the people here would think it should work one way and the other half the otherway.
eg. would be like some say that a sword is a sword is a sword (And I dissagree whole hardily on this), Every weapon has its tecnique and use but not limited to them (eg. A long sword will work as a better crowbar then a katana but they both can be used to cut bread if needed and yet a tableknife can more practical on the bread but can kill easly in the hands of the unskilled), Its this premmis of varibles for weapon, skill, physique and crativity that needs to be refined.
This whole idea goes for magic, Mana magic, wild mage or inate abillity (Or psionic if used) as well (How about eg.fireballs that do more damage and cut through defences better but area affect is so much less) this could be a varible in the skill or prefference (hell it could be because of he stutters when he cast).

Modleworks or somone needs to introduce this to the programmers and it will work if you cater to the sellected players or this type of game, Just remember theres alot of players who like games (rpg,mmo or what not) and in those groups there devided up on who like what, You may have to cater to one type with one game and the other with another insted of all at once.

 

[deimos3428]

The leveling concept is an RPG idea that I think needs to die a quick death. They borrowed it all from D&D where things like stats were needed because you used your imagination.

Actually, knowledge of stats isn't required in table-top gaming either. That's not the problem. Recent incarnations of D&D do suffer an emphasis on statistics -- but they are somewhat ironically derided as being like video games!

In typical old-school tabletop gaming, even though stats for items exist they are often not revealed to the player until they are discovered through trial and error. The same is done in some video games, and it can be done well.

Instead how about we drop all the stats stuff completely.

Well, you can't -- completely. The computer needs metrics internally. But you can definitely take the focus away from them, and/or not present them to the player.

Incidentally, it's a good idea but not a new one. The trick is figuring out how to present what the stats measure in an immersive fashion.

Here is one of the first 3D "RPG" videogames ever written, and it does not use stats at all. The graphics are primitive by today's standards, but it is a very immersive game compared to modern "RPGs":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_of_Daggorath

Video of first dungeon level: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQKQHKdWTRs

If you can find it in emulation and try playing it, you'll see precisely what I mean. (If you can't, you'll look at the primitive graphics, scoff, and not understand...that's ok.)

It isn't done now because they can still get away with using things that were designed for paper and text games.

Again, you're barking up the wrong tree here. The problem isn't emulation of paper and text games, which can be done well or poorly. The problem is an emphasis on stats, which can occur in any sort of game.

 

[Ben90]

the more coverage and the thicker/harder the material, the better would seem pretty simple, no?

Thickness/Hardness doesn't mean shit. Imagine knights decked out in carbon fiber suits, hard as hell, but extremely brittle. They get slapped by a tree branch and it shatters.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

the more coverage and the thicker/harder the material, the better would seem pretty simple, no?

Right - except that only works if there is only one damage type. Which is more protective against a mace, thick padded leather or chain mail? What about arrows? To say nothing of the more fantastic elements you're likely to encounter.

Does a xentronium encounter suit protect better against an Arquillian death ray then a neutronium scout armor with fields? Does mithril chainmail protect better against lightning bolts then obsidian scale armor?

I don't know, I'm willing to bet you don't know, and the only way to find out is to get hit with lightning bolts and death rays. And even then, with no health stats, it's still guess work.

This kind of system is only workable in realistic situations to begin with, and even then I have doubts if it will be fun.

 

[Modelworks]

I need to be clear here that I am not speaking for the people that hired me. I was given an overall impression of the environment and liked what I was told and how it was described. Anything more than that is my opinion and not something related to their project.

That out of the way, getting too close to NDA type stuff so I want to be clear.

I think the intention for removing stats is to keep the immersion. For me if I have to consider if a sword is +5 or +10 that pulls me out of the game world and reminds me it is just a character on a pc . Sort of like watching a good movie and the phone rings, its breaks immersion.

I'm guessing another reason for removing stats is that it just wouldn't work in the context of this RPG. Most RPG have the standard values of health, dex, stamina, agi, intelligence, but what do you do if the game world has instead 60+ values for determining how a sword works. Everything from how much weight you are carrying to how your arm moves inside the armor to the time of day and the weather ?

 

[daishi5]

I need to be clear here that I am not speaking for the people that hired me. I was given an overall impression of the environment and liked what I was told and how it was described. Anything more than that is my opinion and not something related to their project.

That out of the way, getting too close to NDA type stuff so I want to be clear.

I think the intention for removing stats is to keep the immersion. For me if I have to consider if a sword is +5 or +10 that pulls me out of the game world and reminds me it is just a character on a pc . Sort of like watching a good movie and the phone rings, its breaks immersion.

I'm guessing another reason for removing stats is that it just wouldn't work in the context of this RPG. Most RPG have the standard values of health, dex, stamina, agi, intelligence, but what do you do if the game world has instead 60+ values for determining how a sword works. Everything from how much weight you are carrying to how your arm moves inside the armor to the time of day and the weather ?

Would it be better, if instead of being +8 armor, it was 3cm thick iron plates that cover 80% of the body? When it comes down to it, the items will always have some form of "stat" the stats you see now are just more clear in what they do. Or how about a 12 inch sword that weighs 5 pounds?

 

[deimos3428]

A couple more points, having reviewed the whole thread.

1. Somebody brought up a screenshot of Diablo 2 items, demonstrating the myriad stats. Well, you don't want that. But D2 excels in representing character stats in an unobtrusive way. They are mostly tucked away on the character page, leaving only a visual representation of the character with two orbs representing life and mana, and a bar representing stamina. While you can mouse-over the orbs and get your current/max values, you can also keep an eye on how "full" they are to get an instant assessment without numerics -- not really any different than if your character representation got bruises, etc. One is for nit-picking your build in town, the other is for battle telemetry.

Secondly, if you try to wield a weapon and don't have the necessary strength, you simply can't equip it. There is a statistical cue that explains why in the item description, IIRC, but it is small and could be omitted. The character representation doesn't wield the weapon, and you start punching things.

2. There's nothing wrong with removing statistics from the player's view during gameplay. The player needs to tread much more carefully, that's all. Maybe you'll need to think twice before attacking everything in sight, but since when is that a bad thing?

If you're looking for a good compromise, you could have pages of stats that are only viewable in town (or whatever "safe zone" you wish to imagine) when you're in "build mode". Once you venture into the wild outdoors, you're limited to working with your virtual senses. Not entirely unlike TF2...though it doesn't have a sophisticated advancement system at all.

 

[damocles]

I'm not worried about stats, i'd rather they spent more time on class design

 

[shortylickens]

I'm not worried about stats, i'd rather they spent more time on class design

That, I like.

I think 3 or 4 classes that are distinctly different from each other is much better than a dozen classes that are all similar.
Dungeons and Dragons had this problem. At the start it was just Fighter, Thief, Wizard, and Cleric. Then they started adding more and more side classes until you go to third edition, with about 20 main classes, a hundred prestige classes, and they all felt exactly alike.
I understand with 4th edition they went back to basics. I dunno. Got tired.

Star Wars D20 wasnt much better, but at least with the video games they kept it real simple.
Kotor 1 was Soldier, Scout, and Scoundrel. And even if they looked similar at the character select screen, they all felt different when you started playing.
Kotor 2 was Jedi Guardian, Sentinel, and Consular. Again, they all felt different during gameplay.

 

[CountZero]

A couple more points, having reviewed the whole thread.

The player needs to tread much more carefully, that's all. Maybe you'll need to think twice before attacking everything in sight, but since when is that a bad thing?

Treading carefully because you know what lies ahead is challenging is good and well within the realm of having stats always available.

Treading carefully because you have no idea if what lies ahead is easy, adequately challenging or impossible sounds tedious, particularly in the case of impossible.

 

[deimos3428]

Treading carefully because you have no idea if what lies ahead is easy, adequately challenging or impossible sounds tedious, particularly in the case of impossible.

Instant gratification/achievement is even more tedious. A good game requires you to think in order to succeed. After dying horribly a few times in a statless game, good players will realize that being immediately and chronically aggressive is a mistake.

 

[Juddog]

There was a recent RPG on the PS3 that came out that had very similar ideas as to those posed in this thread, called "Dragon Age" if I remember correctly. Many people considered it to be "too hard" though.

 

[RaiderJ]

I knew there would be outrage from the the current MMORPG crowd. I was concerned about stats being removed at first but after seeing how it would all work first hand I'm not anymore. The reason I posted what I did is I was recently contracted to work for a new MMORPG. I was told it would be something totally different from the current concepts and boy were they right. They plan to announce in June when the final team is complete. I'm not involved in the full project, I was contracted to do some mock ups for that June announcement.

I will not go into who is doing it or what it is based on, I value my income too much for that, but will say I have never seen anything like it. Their monthly fee is steep anywhere from $24.95 - $29.95 but I understand the reasoning behind that fee as they are going to do a lot that has never been done before like replacing most of the NPC with real people not scripts and it also is a one server world which can get costly. If I didn't know the companies involved I would say it was all a bit too big an undertaking but they have the talent and the resources so I think it will happen. Announcement coming June 2010

I predict failure strictly based up on the monthly fee.

 

[Alex C]

Yeah, $30 a month? No way.

 

[SpunkyJones]

I like my stats and levels, thank you very much

This. I live to ding.

 

[Sureshot324]

I predict failure strictly based up on the monthly fee.

That's what they said about Ultima Online charching $15 a month. If the game is good people will pay it.

 

[MJinZ]

No offense OP, but that sounds like it would be incredibly frustrating to play.

Sounds like real life. You know, like a thousand years ago. No thank you, games are meant to be fun, not to be completely realistic.

 

[Juddog]

Sounds like real life. You know, like a thousand years ago. No thank you, games are meant to be fun, not to be completely realistic.

Exactly - the reason WoW is so bloody successful is that it did away with some of the realism elements from games like Everquest, which made it more fun, which is one of the reasons more people play it.

I'll never forget the time playing Everquest where my roomate fell into "the Hole", died, and could never get his body back so his corpse poofed and he lost all his items. He quit the game after that.