Stats and levels need to die in RPG

[smackababy]

Yet in fallout 3, it was so hard to make a character that was bad at anything, or exceptional.

OP, your idea is bad. You're basically keeping stats and levels, but getting rid of the easy display of information and using 'hints'.

How about this:

Reduce RPGs to a more Zelda like set up. No stats or levels whatsoever (because honestly, would you improve that much in real life, when you're already a world class adventurer from the start?), but improvements in abilities. You get an extra heart or shield, some extra ability, or a new weapon (no duplicates). Stats are such a poor gameplay mechanic, when all they do is serve as an indirect measure of the time you've played. The only time I like stats in my game is when they're limited and you choose how to allocate them, and you can't get more. IE, when how you make your character actually matters.

Fallout 3 used a system that was developed from GURPS, a pen and paper system depicted emulate anything and everything plus real life.

If you have multiple types of characters, you need some sort of stats to make them all different. If all RPGs were like Zelda, the genre as a whole would be terrible.

 

[inspiron]

I have to disagree, I love statistics, and stats are the whole foundation of most popular RPG's.

 

[PieIsAwesome]

I sort of agree, never cared for stats, seems archaic.

My biggest problem is with JRPGs and strategy RPGs. A level or boss can be unbeatable because you are too low level. So grind away. If you grind too much you pretty much roll right through the boss or level using no thinking or strategy at all. I ruined Jeanne d'Arc like this. At first it was a fun challenge until I got stuck, grinded too much, and then pretty much just did move->attack every level until i was done. Lame. Similar in Lost Odyssey. Boss too hard? Just grind away and totally rape it no thinking or strategy required.

 

[shortylickens]

I sort of agree, never cared for stats, seems archaic.

My biggest problem is with JRPGs and strategy RPGs. A level or boss can be unbeatable because you are too low level. So grind away. If you grind too much you pretty much roll right through the boss or level using no thinking or strategy at all. I ruined Jeanne d'Arc like this. At first it was a fun challenge until I got stuck, grinded too much, and then pretty much just did move->attack every level until i was done. Lame. Similar in Lost Odyssey. Boss too hard? Just grind away and totally rape it no thinking or strategy required.

And you know how they fixed that problem?
Level up the monsters with you. COMPLETELY NEGATING THE LEVEL SYSTEM!

 

[flashbacck]

uh, aren't you just asking for stats and levels to be displayed differently?

 

[Dumac]

I sort of agree, never cared for stats, seems archaic.

My biggest problem is with JRPGs and strategy RPGs. A level or boss can be unbeatable because you are too low level. So grind away. If you grind too much you pretty much roll right through the boss or level using no thinking or strategy at all. I ruined Jeanne d'Arc like this. At first it was a fun challenge until I got stuck, grinded too much, and then pretty much just did move->attack every level until i was done. Lame. Similar in Lost Odyssey. Boss too hard? Just grind away and totally rape it no thinking or strategy required.

Well why don't you, I don't know, not grind? It isn't as if it was impossible for you to beat the boss at your current level, you just weren't skilled enough.

As for Loss Odyssey specifically, didn't that game implement a level cap that completely negated grinding?

On a more related note, the OP's idea is terrible.

 

[KentState]

Everything in real life is based on stats. Even the OPs example is inaccurate as I'm sure he reads the values on each of his weights when working out. I know when I lifted, I would keep stats and add weights, which are labeled, over time.

Typically, when you buy a gun, you get a certain caliber depending on what you are doing. I doubt any of us just randomly buy guns and experiment to see which one is best.

I know I also read all the stats on a car I'm buying instead of just getting the one that looks fast. If not, the TRD Celica that looked fast would of been my choice over the a GTO.

Don't we typically buy food based on stats? I'm not in the habit of randomly eating food hoping it covers my nutrition needs.

What a silly idea.

 

[AstroManLuca]

I'm not sure I'd agree with eliminating stats entirely, but look at STALKER. It's an FPS with a lot of RPG elements, but you don't level up or get any character stats. The way you play and improve is determined entirely by your gear and upgrades, and the game is good about giving you better and better guns over time.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

And then degrading them with use.

At any rate, the reality of the situation he's describing is that all that stats are still there, however they are all hidden.

I, for one, do not want to have to spend an hour in the local shop picking up every gun/sword/piece of armor/shield/whatever to be able to decide what I want to buy.

Visible statistics exist because that is not fun.

 

[Ben90]

Im gonna pull some random screenshot off images.google of a very popular RPG

Im not exactly sure how your going to just guess what all that stuff does

 

[Borealis7]

more stats plz!

i like intricate skill trees and micro management of character stats, balancing them with items and so on.
i remember the old Might & Magic way of leveling up. each time you level, you get an amount of points to spend on skills, and in order to raise a skill from 6 to 7 you'll need 7 points, from 7 to 8 you'll need 8 points and so on. at a certain level you can train to be an 'expert' or 'master' or 'grandmaster' of a skill to unlock new bonuses/spells/abilities.

plus it had so many items slots. that was fun. i want to be able to put on 10 rings like in real life

 

[sandorski]

Well until we have some sort of virtual reality, where you can feel the itmes and interact with the environment, the ideas presented in the OP will not work.

KT

This.

Video Games are very detached from Reality, Stats and other methods are used to fill in the gaps.

 

[Jumpem]

NO! Stats and leveling (and loot) are the entire point of RPGs.

 

[shortylickens]

Im gonna pull some random screenshot off images.google of a very popular RPG

Im not exactly sure how your going to just guess what all that stuff does

Yeah, umm, thats not an RPG. Its an action game with stats.

NO! Stats and leveling (and loot) are the entire point of RPGs.

No, it isnt. In fact thats the very thing that RPG's are NOT.

I think many folks need to learn what an actual role-playing game is and quit assuming all the crap they've seen is a real RPG. Its not.
Maybe some time with MERP would be appropriate here.

 

[Jumpem]

Yeah, umm, thats not an RPG. Its an action game with stats.



No, it isnt. In fact thats the very thing that RPG's are NOT.

I think many folks need to learn what an actual role-playing game is and quit assuming all the crap they've seen is a real RPG. Its not.
Maybe some time with MERP would be appropriate here.

Are you implying story and dialogue? If so, I'm not terribly concerned with RPG's that rely heavily on those elements. I prefer action/hack 'n slash RPGs.

 

[JoshGuru7]

There's no need to be too pedantic about definitions here. If you want to analyze the term "role-playing" then that could be applied to just about any game ever. You could call the Sims one of the most popular role-playing franchises in existence. Instead people like to call it a simulation game and describe role-playing games with a story but no levels as adventure games (see: Indigo Prophecy).

 

[CountZero]

Yeah, umm, thats not an RPG. Its an action game with stats.



No, it isnt. In fact thats the very thing that RPG's are NOT.

I think many folks need to learn what an actual role-playing game is and quit assuming all the crap they've seen is a real RPG. Its not.
Maybe some time with MERP would be appropriate here.

Sorry but stats/levels are right there next to involved story/dialog trees as things that define a CRPG. Maybe you don't like that definition but its the truth.

If I said "its a FPS with RP elements" most people will think stats/levels are the RP elements.

Even PnP RPGs started (as someone else pointed out) as essentially strategy games with narrative. Some folks even play PnP almost exclusively as a strategy game, preferring to just do dungeon crawls. So you may not like that some people think of RPGs as a chance to play with or min/max stats but for many that is the key draw.

 

[Maximilian]

Sorry but stats/levels are right there next to involved story/dialog trees as things that define a CRPG. Maybe you don't like that definition but its the truth.

If I said "its a FPS with RP elements" most people will think stats/levels are the RP elements.

Even PnP RPGs started (as someone else pointed out) as essentially strategy games with narrative. Some folks even play PnP almost exclusively as a strategy game, preferring to just do dungeon crawls. So you may not like that some people think of RPGs as a chance to play with or min/max stats but for many that is the key draw.

Plug n play RPG?

 

[JoshGuru7]

Plug n play RPG?

Pen and Paper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pen-and-paper_RPG)

 

[pontifex]

Everything in real life is based on stats. Even the OPs example is inaccurate as I'm sure he reads the values on each of his weights when working out. I know when I lifted, I would keep stats and add weights, which are labeled, over time.

Typically, when you buy a gun, you get a certain caliber depending on what you are doing. I doubt any of us just randomly buy guns and experiment to see which one is best.

I know I also read all the stats on a car I'm buying instead of just getting the one that looks fast. If not, the TRD Celica that looked fast would of been my choice over the a GTO.

Don't we typically buy food based on stats? I'm not in the habit of randomly eating food hoping it covers my nutrition needs.

What a silly idea.

A sword is a sword is sword for the most part. A longsword isn't going to do more damage than a scimitar or a sabre. Swords don't have stats other than length and weight and maybe sharpness.

The only thing that is going to determine the amount of damage you do is the strength of the person using it, their knowledge of using it, and maybe how sharp it is. Hell, i mean, even someone who is just waving it around can do serious damage if they hit you.

 

[coloumb]

Go play LARP with real weapons, armors, etc - then come back and tell us if you like it or not

 

[AVP]

NO! Stats and leveling (and loot) are the entire point of RPGs.

I don't mean to demean you but personally I find this ridiculous. Where is the fun, and what is the point? Do you find meaning and significance out having a character with high numbers? It seems like that is what life has come to for many mmo players. Its pathetic and it made me sick for the period of time that I logged into WoW even though the warcraft world seemed interesting. It seems some people having nothing else in life than to upgrade their character, like my deadbeat cousin who has to get every achievement in every xbox game.

Video games are supposed to be fun and interesting, a release - whatever. Not a job and certainly not some silly reinforcement system. Getting rid of stats and levels can rid of this stupidity that modern rpgs are plagued by.

I would rather have no character stats / customization or whatever and instead have a world that is affected by player actions, or be in a large two city war that reset every few months when one faction won. Id rather play a game where I was apart of something, and had fun since I have other means of fulfillment than stats in life.

 

[jlee]

Go play LARP with real weapons, armors, etc - then come back and tell us if you like it or not

This post wins.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

Then you're looking for a different genre.

Growth is fundamental to the concept of RPGs.

 

[Modelworks]

I knew there would be outrage from the the current MMORPG crowd. I was concerned about stats being removed at first but after seeing how it would all work first hand I'm not anymore. The reason I posted what I did is I was recently contracted to work for a new MMORPG. I was told it would be something totally different from the current concepts and boy were they right. They plan to announce in June when the final team is complete. I'm not involved in the full project, I was contracted to do some mock ups for that June announcement.

I will not go into who is doing it or what it is based on, I value my income too much for that, but will say I have never seen anything like it. Their monthly fee is steep anywhere from $24.95 - $29.95 but I understand the reasoning behind that fee as they are going to do a lot that has never been done before like replacing most of the NPC with real people not scripts and it also is a one server world which can get costly. If I didn't know the companies involved I would say it was all a bit too big an undertaking but they have the talent and the resources so I think it will happen. Announcement coming June 2010