Stats and levels need to die in RPG

[Modelworks]

The leveling concept is an RPG idea that I think needs to die a quick death. They borrowed it all from D&D where things like stats were needed because you used your imagination. Now it isn't needed, pc are more than capable of displaying a character.

Instead how about we drop all the stats stuff completely. The last time I lifted weights I got stronger, how did I know ? I could pick up heavier items when I tried to . I didn't have a strength bar or icon to check points. If I get smarter I know because I understand things better. Not because I added points or was told by someone 'now you are smarter' . Those are old methods used by games when tech was too limited. No excuse for it now other than laziness. If I pick up a book in a game and I can't read it, guess I am not smart enough .

If I pick up a sword and my character starts to drag it on the ground or strain from holding it, then I guess it is too heavy. We don't carry around a scale in the real world and I don't think we need to in games anymore. The same goes for things like damage. In games now people buy items based on stats like +5 DMG. Are people walking around with test dummies and meters slicing into them and taking measurements on how well it works ? Of course not, you should have to buy items based on description and appearance. Artist are more than capable of showing items in game that would let people understand how they perform in combat.

If I wanted to buy a sword and I look at it, it is covered in rust and chipped on the blade then I know it probably isn't good, just like I can do in the real world with a sword. If the sword looks great then I go to battle and it breaks in two because while it looked good it was made from cheap metal (just like you can do in the real world), then I know not to buy that brand(item) again and will tell others. If I am in combat I don't need a health bar over the enemy and little 5 dmg, +20dmg numbers appearing. Instead I need to see the enemy weakening, hitting slower, stumbling. It isn't done now because they can still get away with using things that were designed for paper and text games.

I hope people wise up and start calling out the companies making these old school pen and paper games with animated characters.

 

[KaOTiK]

I like my stats and levels, thank you very much

 

[jlee]

No offense OP, but that sounds like it would be incredibly frustrating to play.

 

[Bateluer]

I sincerely hope developers making CRPGs do NOT take your advice under consideration. The genre is already being dumbed down far too much.

Developers need to keep their CRPGs more true to the PnP rules, not less.

 

[Udgnim]

your idea of gameplay is something I do not want

 

[SunnyD]

So how to you measure advancement in such a game? You have to realize some sense of achievement and advancement is what people look for when they play a game.

 

[Tristicus]

APB doesn't have stats, and while an MMO but not RPG, it is based on skill. Games should be like that IMO, and your way sounds very confusing.

 

[KeithTalent]

Well until we have some sort of virtual reality, where you can feel the itmes and interact with the environment, the ideas presented in the OP will not work.

KT

 

[The Boston Dangler]

i agree with the op. i want realistic encumbrance and no to-hit die rolls.

 

[Sureshot324]

You realize that behind the scenes the computer is still going to keep status on everything right? If sword A is more powerful than sword B then the game is going have to assign a value to that power, whether it shows it to the player or not.

As for being able to visually identify how good a sword is, that wouldn't work in an rpg. Gamers want cool looking creative fantasy swords that would be impossibly impractical in real life. We don't want rusty chipped swords except maybe in the very beginning. Without showing us stats, how would we know which sword is better? Whichever one looks the coolest?

 

[Lonyo]

Basically you want stats and levelling up, but you don't want the player to be able to see it?
So instead of knowing things, you want them to make a vague guess based on what they see.
As far as your gym vs game comparison goes, here's a hint: you don't get feedback from most games. Why try to make a visual feedback representation and totally eliminate numbers?

The idea is nice, have a more visual way of identifying change, but it doesn't need to be done at the expense of the more traditional system, but just used to accentuate the character development and improve immersion.
Because you don't have the same feedback systems in a game as you do in real life, hard numbers are pretty handy.

 

[Ika]

Basically you want stats and levelling up, but you don't want the player to be able to see it?
So instead of knowing things, you want them to make a vague guess based on what they see.
As far as your gym vs game comparison goes, here's a hint: you don't get feedback from most games. Why try to make a visual feedback representation and totally eliminate numbers?

The idea is nice, have a more visual way of identifying change, but it doesn't need to be done at the expense of the more traditional system, but just used to accentuate the character development and improve immersion.
Because you don't have the same feedback systems in a game as you do in real life, hard numbers are pretty handy.

Wow, this describes my thoughts perfectly.

 

[Fenixgoon]

worst idea evar.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Speak for yourself dude. I love stat based rpg's.

 

[Maximilian]

This thread needs to die, thats the worst bad idea ive read in quite a while...

 

[waffleironhead]

So, what is your viable alternative to the current system?

 

[AVP]

Speak for yourself dude. I love stat based rpg's.

Did he presume to speak for you?

Now I happen to agree withe OP's premise but where he went with it from there...well It was not very clear.

Anyways...

Stats and levels worked. With graphical and technological limitations I believe that they were a good substitute for proper growth and advancement in rpgs. They do however, create a system where personal achievement and the quest for epeen is singular and paramount.

With new technology and greater bandwith what I believe the rationale for a stat-less RPG represents is a desire for a game in which your role is to advance your character not for its own sake but in the context of a larger quest and in a community advancing towards one goal. Sure we have guilds that band together to kill dragons, but for many the time commitment, drama and loot-whoring attitude of these groups kills their unity and fun.

Instead playing an rpg style game where one's progression is tied into the building of an empire, a city-state or village where crafting and harvesting contribute to the community and prestige and "experience" is rewarded not with larger numbers but more adaptively, by npcs and new opportunities - is a more immersive and fun experience then "grinding" for bigger numbers and fighting newly skinned higher level monsters.

I hope (or wish, whatever) that we could move to a system where, as the OP suggests, there is a physical and ambient realization of progression within the game. This will take the emphasis off of grinding and eventually evolve and allow each person to have fun, and accomplish things in game through various avenues other than killing 300 kobolds alone, in a cave, to get an item with 25 more hp.

There are various theoretical ways in which improvement can manifest itself, in order for a person to play, have fun, and still feel like they are part of an environment and achieving something in game. The OP highlighted some of these:

On a personal level your characters physical prowess, cast time, recollection of information and spell instructions and appearance (etc...) could change and grow in thousands of different combinations and degrees. I like the "start small" approach where your rusty broadsword is something that doubles as a bread knife. Being a hero in a game is something that could be earned. Titles, land ownership, respect of NPCs, hiring workers, getting missions from leaders/nobles/star-commanders are just a few of the many achievements and progressive allocations that a player can receive instead of hoping to upgrade your leather leggings into be-dazzeled chainmail pantaloons with 10 more dexterity.

I will never play another game where its purpose is to provide various landscapes, a shitty story, and re-skinned monsters so that I can improve a meaningless character. The current MMORPG model sucks in my opinion, and I agree with the OP that getting rid of stats and levels is the first step, but would require a huge undertaking that may not even be a possibility quite yet. I know that there are people that love these games, enjoy exploring and the satisfaction of improving your character's stats but I really do not consider this fun under its current implementation.

In the end,the purpose of current MMORPGs is to improve your character's stats and they reinforce grinding to do so. PVP can be a blast, but there is little else that is redeeming behind them unless you find a great group to play with. For many of them, the fun wears off and group dynamics of healer and tank limit and hole people into boring roles and tension amongst members. These games are not focused on playing a character in a fun environment, only improving that character....and I could not care less how I measure to the legions unemployed or failing highschool students that play 10 hours a day.

Just my two cents.

***oh and random addendum: raiding needs to start at level 1

 

[JoshGuru7]

The OP is addressing RPG's in general and not just MMOs. It isn't grinding that bothers him, but rather being told what the difference in quality is between various items. One of the purposes for detailed statistics about everything is to enable strategic play, and D&D core gameplay is at heart a strategy game. The role-playing skin allows a narrative but the interface is there to support the strategy elements.

That's not to say that the OP's idea couldn't work for a few games. Imagine a story based game without any stats or numbers where every skill was granted invisibly by completing a pre-requisite quest. Sort of like Oblivion without a UI. The adventure genre was a lot like this, and while it mostly died out there are still developers like Telltale doing well.

Obviously, wanting all RPGs to become adventure games in the future is just silly since there is room for both to exist.

 

[TheVrolok]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with nearly everything in the OP.

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Dungeon Siege did this well. Your character doesn't start out as any class, but just gets better at whatever you use him/her for. Do you hit things a lot with swords? You get better at that. Do you throw a lot of fireballs? They get more fiery. Do you heal your allies a lot? They get better, faster, stronger. I still want to be able to pick/upgrade abilities, but I agree the old-school system of stats and damage points is silly. Of course all of that stuff will be in the background, but I hate fretting about whether my +5 damage or +5 agility sword will be better for a battle; I like to just see it happen.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Dungeon Siege did this well. Your character doesn't start out as any class, but just gets better at whatever you use him/her for. Do you hit things a lot with swords? You get better at that. Do you throw a lot of fireballs? They get more fiery. Do you heal your allies a lot? They get better, faster, stronger. I still want to be able to pick/upgrade abilities, but I agree the old-school system of stats and damage points is silly. Of course all of that stuff will be in the background, but I hate fretting about whether my +5 damage or +5 agility sword will be better for a battle; I like to just see it happen.

i dont know about DS, but i hate the way Bethesda does it in TES. sounds great on paper, but it's so easy to gimp your character in oblivion/morrowind

 

[Alex C]

Dungeon Siege did this well. Your character doesn't start out as any class, but just gets better at whatever you use him/her for. Do you hit things a lot with swords? You get better at that. Do you throw a lot of fireballs? They get more fiery. Do you heal your allies a lot? They get better, faster, stronger. I still want to be able to pick/upgrade abilities, but I agree the old-school system of stats and damage points is silly. Of course all of that stuff will be in the background, but I hate fretting about whether my +5 damage or +5 agility sword will be better for a battle; I like to just see it happen.

Betrayal at Krondor had a similar system way back when. Your characters stats and skills increased as you used them, and you could pick a few skills that would increase at a faster rate to help steer your character where you wanted it to go.

It'd be neat if games had a variety of ways for your skills and spells to advance that catered to how you play, instead of everybody getting the same next level skill. It'd make skill trees a little less irritating because there'd be multiple ways of getting to the same end game skills, but without you having to put points in skills you don't want. It wouldn't really work in a game like Diablo, but it'd be neat in something like Dragon Age.

 

[shortylickens]

i dont know about DS, but i hate the way Bethesda does it in TES. sounds great on paper, but it's so easy to gimp your character in oblivion/morrowind

The Elder Scrolls is MUCH different. Dont even compare the two.
You would probably like Dungeon Siege provided you understand its more hack'n'slash and less Role-play.


As for me: I think Deus Ex and STALKER have a pretty good setup and more companies should follow them.

 

[Fox5]

i dont know about DS, but i hate the way Bethesda does it in TES. sounds great on paper, but it's so easy to gimp your character in oblivion/morrowind

Yet in fallout 3, it was so hard to make a character that was bad at anything, or exceptional.

OP, your idea is bad. You're basically keeping stats and levels, but getting rid of the easy display of information and using 'hints'.

How about this:

Reduce RPGs to a more Zelda like set up. No stats or levels whatsoever (because honestly, would you improve that much in real life, when you're already a world class adventurer from the start?), but improvements in abilities. You get an extra heart or shield, some extra ability, or a new weapon (no duplicates). Stats are such a poor gameplay mechanic, when all they do is serve as an indirect measure of the time you've played. The only time I like stats in my game is when they're limited and you choose how to allocate them, and you can't get more. IE, when how you make your character actually matters.

 

[JSt0rm]

I loved sacred 2 because of how unbelievable detailed the leveling system is. It is fun learning how to build a character.