Starting Strength-Substituting Bent Rows for Power Cleans?

[ZOOYUKA]

I am not very comfortable doing power cleans and my gym is not set up well to do them either. Is this a viable substitute?

 

[Malfeas]

Yes, I believe you can.

Or you could substitute alternating chinups/pullups.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:The_Program#Three_Flavors_of_Starting_Strength

 

[ZOOYUKA]

Yes, I believe you can.

Or you could substitute alternating chinups/pullups.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:The_Program#Three_Flavors_of_Starting_Strength

thanks, that is what i will do then.

 

[bommy261]

there is no substitute for power cleans. u could split up the motions however, like the shrug, front squat, bent over rows, chin ups. all those exercises are kinda built into the power clean.

but power cleaning is still superior, imo.

 

[coreyb]

as it says in the book, you can do rows in place of the power clean but they are not a substitute. you are giving up a lot if you do, the PC contributes toward your deadlift and is good at developing power and speed.

 

[CrossFyer]

I tried power cleans and just couldn't get the form down without legit help, so I tried the rows and frankly it sucked. didn't feel like they were helping much.

so now i'm doing chinups, 3x8, weighted as needed, it's a good exercise.

 

[coreyb]

have you read the books crossfyer? or the starting strength DVD? there is so much instruction out there ANYONE should be able to learn to power clean with decent form.

 

[norsy]

as it says in the book, you can do rows in place of the power clean but they are not a substitute. you are giving up a lot if you do, the PC contributes toward your deadlift and is good at developing power and speed.

How exactly do the power cleans help the deadlift? I know it starts with the deadlift but our deadlift numbers are usually so much higher than our numbers on the power clean...

 

[coreyb]

don't ask me, it's in the starting strength books. could be the explosion aspect and how it makes your traps stronger?

 

[brikis98]

The primary purpose of the power clean - and all olympic-style lifts - is to develop power. Most of the other exercises in SS are done relatively slowly and build maximal strength. The power clean, on the other hand, must be done very aggressively & explosively, so it develops the ability to deliver force quickly. The power clean has tremendous carry over to sports, since just about every athletic endevour is done quickly & explosively: think of a tackle in football, a slap shot in hockey, a punch in boxing, a jump in basketball. It will improve your vertical jump, sprinting ability and yes, since it heavily works the posterior chain, it'll improve your deadlift as well.

Because of this, the barbell row is a poor substitute. It's a slow lift, so it does not develop any explosive power. Moreover, the muscles it works are completely different: the primary movers in the power clean are the hip extensors (hamstrings, glutes), quads and traps. The primary movers in the barbell row are the muscles of the upper back (lats, traps, rhomboids) and your biceps. Now, I'm not saying the barbell row is a bad exercise - it's a great way to develop the upper back and balance out the bench press - but you should be aware of what you're losing if you choose to do it instead of power cleans.

Don't give up on the lift so quickly. It's harder to learn than the other lifts in SS, but it wouldn't be in the routine & book if you couldn't learn it on your own. Re-read the chapter, watch tons of videos online and practice, practice, practice. It's definitely worth it.

 

[Lamont Burns]

The power clean is like the tough road that you don't take, but if you did once you got to the end you'd be like holy fuck this is awesome.

My gym frowns on them hardcore. No bumper plates and lack of good area to do them in, and no mats really to absorb the noise. They even put up signs recently about slamming weights down.

Still tho, if I had adequate space and ability, man they are fun once you get them down.

 

[gramboh]

It's not THAT hard to learn, especially compared to a snatch. Having bumpers makes it a lot easier, but you should be learning with just the bar (and then light weight) anyway. Honestly keep at it, it's rewarding when you get passable form, and a very useful exercise for the reasons brikis detailed above.

It can help a deadlift in terms of developing power off the floor and in your hips in general (even though the positions are different and weight is lighter).

 

[CrossFyer]

well, ya'll have inspired me to attempt learning it again.

i'm still debating on whether to skip chinups and do it now, or wait until school starts in august.

the main reasons for waiting:
- i'm bad at chinups and have been improving at them
- lots of good lifters at school that could help me get the technique down
- the place that I work out now (YMCA) has no bumper plates and I've never seen anyone do power cleans there. I'm actually one of the few people who even deadlifts off the ground, most use these weird bars beside the power rack that starts the bar too high but keeps the weights of the ground.

when I tried power cleans last semester, the basic form was decent especially the first part picking up from the ground, but something about the rip up to my shoulders was just really awkward. I always ended up holding the bar like I was about to shoulder press it, instead of having it on my fingertips with wrists bent way back. and my elbows always finished low instead of high like they are on videos. i tried fixing this with just the bar and also with like 90lbs in case you needed weights on there to actually "feel it", but no good results.

the only real reason for starting now: my brother is going to play D3 college bball next year, he has never done much with the SS barbell exercises so we started the SS program together 3 weeks ago. he is strong as heck and and I know he would benefit from the power cleans for sports (not many 5'11" white point guards are on the cusp of dunking like he is) plus they will probably be required to do PC's at school anyway so he might as well get used to it?

decisions, decisions. :\

 

[bommy261]

well, ya'll have inspired me to attempt learning it again.

i'm still debating on whether to skip chinups and do it now, or wait until school starts in august.

the main reasons for waiting:
- i'm bad at chinups and have been improving at them
- lots of good lifters at school that could help me get the technique down
- the place that I work out now (YMCA) has no bumper plates and I've never seen anyone do power cleans there. I'm actually one of the few people who even deadlifts off the ground, most use these weird bars beside the power rack that starts the bar too high but keeps the weights of the ground.

when I tried power cleans last semester, the basic form was decent especially the first part picking up from the ground, but something about the rip up to my shoulders was just really awkward. I always ended up holding the bar like I was about to shoulder press it, instead of having it on my fingertips with wrists bent way back. and my elbows always finished low instead of high like they are on videos. i tried fixing this with just the bar and also with like 90lbs in case you needed weights on there to actually "feel it", but no good results.

the only real reason for starting now: my brother is going to play D3 college bball next year, he has never done much with the SS barbell exercises so we started the SS program together 3 weeks ago. he is strong as heck and and I know he would benefit from the power cleans for sports (not many 5'11" white point guards are on the cusp of dunking like he is) plus they will probably be required to do PC's at school anyway so he might as well get used to it?

decisions, decisions. :\

doesn't your football team have a strength coach? that is how i learned all my lifts

 

[gramboh]

Why not do both (chin-ups and power cleans), they are completely difference but both useful exercises.

As for the problems racking the barbell, start doing front squats every day in the gym in your warm-up, use just the bar or light weight, that will help stretch your shoulders out so you can get the right rack position. Experiment with grip width if you have trouble (e.g. elbows inside or out of wrists). You need to get comfortable with the bar against your neck or you will hesitate during the second pull and end up racking it in your hands (aka shoulder press position).

Good luck

 

[enwar3]

So if you do SS the way it was meant to be (power cleans), there's no exercise that directly targets that upper back? This seems like an omission....

 

[Koing]

The PC helps the DL because MOST people that DL lack power. They 'grind' the bar off the floor. If they were explode off the floor they create more POWER and this will help you DL more. Obviously exploding off the floor at the expense of your back rounding like f0ck is NOT A GOOD THING. Go only as fast as you can maintain good DL form. But once you get stronger and your back will be able to take the power your legs generate.

This is why more advance DL routines have a day for 'speed' DL, working 'only' on 60% of your 1RM for triples for 4-6sets. The speed you learn at the lower % will help your body 'get use to' going fast for when the heavy DL. Sure you may not go fast a limit weight but the focus on your CNS to get use to moving fast has a very beneficial affect at max weight.

Koing

 

[gramboh]

So if you do SS the way it was meant to be (power cleans), there's no exercise that directly targets that upper back? This seems like an omission....

Don't pull-ups (palms facing away) target the lats? In addition to isometric strength from holding your back in extension through deadlifts and squats? When I did SS (from untrained state) my upper back definitely grew.