Starting Strength Experiences

[brikis98]

i worked with what I had thouhg as far as squats were concerned (smith machine) and so my gains my not have been so much had i been using a squat rack.

The difference between a free weight barbell squat and a "squat" on a smith machine is tremendous. In fact, due to the fixed path of the bar on a smith machine, it is almost impossible to do anything close to a real squat on it and most people end up doing quarter or half squats, leaning way back against the bar, and involving little to no posterior chain. Smith machine squats will not build as much strength or size and, as with most machines, they don't develop much neuromuscular coordination, so the strength and size you do build will be very difficult to transfer to the real world. All of this is thoroughly explained in the SS book, one of the many reasons to get it and read it if you are going to pretend to do the program.

stronglifts iirc is more of an intermediate program. if you are just starting out, stick with SS set your strength goals and when you reach them, then think about converting to stonglifts.

No. Stronglifts 5x5 is a beginner routine. Although it is very similar to Starting Strength, it has more volume (5x5 instead of 3x5) and a slightly different exercise selection (rows instead of power cleans, extra ab work, etc). Because of this, it is in some ways more of a beginner routine than SS - as the weight gets heavier, the extra volume will make progress more difficult. This is why many people switch to SS after doing SL 5x5, as recommended on the SL website itself:

Stronglifts 5x5 vs Rippetoe 3x5:

"The Problem With StrongLifts 5×5. It’s more stressful. 5×5 is better to build muscle and lose fat, but is harder to recover from. You’ll stall sooner doing StrongLifts 5×5 than doing Rippetoe’s 3×5."

"Switching from StrongLifts 5×5 to Rippetoe 3×5. Do this and you’ll be able to add weight longer without having to switch to an intermediate program. You’ll also cut down on workout time at the gym."

 

[NAC]

if these the "normal" pains a 35y/o like me has, then it's possible you're not warming up properly and stretching?

[chastise]considering how you've had back pain prior you should have known you need to do some extra warmups and stretching/cool downs to take care of your self. [/chastise]

Friendly chastising accepted.

Most of my problems came on off days, this last time 2 weeks after the last time I lifted. Therefore I think most of the problems are not related to the lifts, stretching, and probably not warmup. I consider myself extra cautious regarding stretching. Stretch most days, can touch my ankles, etc. I will consider spending more time warming up and cooling down... in the past I was doing what SS recommends, perhaps a bit more, but not much more.

Exception, as I wrote, is when I lifted when I already had aches/pain. That was silly.


As to the word "normal", it is probably a bad choice. Lets put it this way: the doctors can't explain what I should do differently to avoid problems, other than what I think I'm already doing: stretching, watch posture, take regular breaks when sitting, exercise.

 

[alkemyst]

just remember your first set of gains will be your best...eat up and don't be afraid to carry a little extra padding for a couple months. Get the muscle base down. I think this is why I can bounce back so easily after extended periods away from training.

Also remember after about 45 mins in the gym you are going too long. Stick to 30 secs between sets/exercises and that's including setting up for the next. Get in, get out, eat, sleep, repeat.

 

[alkemyst]

As to the word "normal", it is probably a bad choice. Lets put it this way: the doctors can't explain what I should do differently to avoid problems, other than what I think I'm already doing: stretching, watch posture, take regular breaks when sitting, exercise.

If you the time stretching is great...for me I don't...I will do a low weight warmup set and really try to stretch the muscle groups I am working with that. In my free time I will do some stretches at my desk or while standing waiting for something.

 

[brikis98]

Also remember after about 45 mins in the gym you are going too long.

This depends on the routine. If he is doing just the 3 exercises per day and still in the early stages, then 45 minutes is a reasonable upper limit. If he adds in pull-ups and dips at the end of the workouts - as many people do after a few weeks with SS - then it'll take more time. As the weight gets heavier and strength, rather than technique, is the limitation, more time will be needed between sets. Towards the end of SS, I'd say 60 minutes is a more likely number, even as high as 90 when you factor in a thorough warm-up and cool down.

 

[BlackTigers]

. Stick to 30 secs between sets/exercises and that's including setting up for the next. Get in, get out, eat, sleep, repeat.

I personally don't recommend 30 seconds between sets for SS.

The way SS is structured, you pretty much hit a max every time you move a bar, either by tying it or setting a new one. This is ridiculously hard on your body, especially for a beginner (setting three 5RM's squatting in one workout isn't uncommon - I prefer to pyramid my lifts)

When I rest anywhere between 30-90 seconds, I usually cannot either add weight or get all 5 reps. When I step back for about 3-5 minutes (a song), get a drink, and hit the bar again, my body recovers enough to move some heavy ass weight again. For SS, many, many people agree that several minutes between heavy sets is perfectly fine. It's not a body building split. 30s would probably be okay for the military press, but for the big lifts, definitely gotta take a step back and relax.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I personally don't recommend 30 seconds between sets for SS.

The way SS is structured, you pretty much hit a max every time you move a bar, either by tying it or setting a new one. This is ridiculously hard on your body, especially for a beginner (setting three 5RM's squatting in one workout isn't uncommon - I prefer to pyramid my lifts)

When I rest anywhere between 30-90 seconds, I usually cannot either add weight or get all 5 reps. When I step back for about 3-5 minutes (a song), get a drink, and hit the bar again, my body recovers enough to move some heavy ass weight again. For SS, many, many people agree that several minutes between heavy sets is perfectly fine. It's not a body building split. 30s would probably be okay for the military press, but for the big lifts, definitely gotta take a step back and relax.

Yeah, 30 seconds doesn't leave enough time for creatine-phosphate and base ATP levels to be regenerated. If someone's doing a circuit, then that's fine. However, if someone is going for serious strength gain, they need breaks in excess of 2 minutes. Powerlifters frequently rest more than 5 minutes. Supposedly, this elicits a greater secretion of growth hormone from the pituitary, but I haven't read much on it. Saying everybody should use thirty seconds rest is naive because everybody has different goals. Thirty seconds rest is best for those on an endurance-related circuit. It's sub-optimal for everything else.

 

[alkemyst]

45 mins time is more than enough in the gym. The whole warmup and cooldown is great for cardio, not really needed for lifts other than a few starter sets.

Most people will definitely think more rest is better...in the end you are just wasting time. Those same people are also usually the ones that plateau early and never progress up.

As a student or living at home, then maybe 2 hours is fine. My workouts when I was in my teens and 20's were 2 hours...I think I would have been doing much better doing half that and sleeping more.

 

[alkemyst]

Yeah, 30 seconds doesn't leave enough time for creatine-phosphate and base ATP levels to be regenerated. If someone's doing a circuit, then that's fine. However, if someone is going for serious strength gain, they need breaks in excess of 2 minutes. Powerlifters frequently rest more than 5 minutes. Supposedly, this elicits a greater secretion of growth hormone from the pituitary, but I haven't read much on it. Saying everybody should use thirty seconds rest is naive because everybody has different goals. Thirty seconds rest is best for those on an endurance-related circuit. It's sub-optimal for everything else.

Most here and in this thread are hardly power lifters even though they may think they are.

We are speaking in general mostly on these types of forums UNLESS the poster was specific. You tend to pull all the specialized things out of your textbooks that maybe apply to 3-5% of the population if that.

I don't get that.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Most here and in this thread are hardly power lifters even though they may think they are.

We are speaking in general mostly on these types of forums UNLESS the poster was specific. You tend to pull all the specialized things out of your textbooks that maybe apply to 3-5% of the population if that.

I don't get that.

Those who are training for strength and size have the same goals as powerlifters. They should use similar tools. I'm speaking in general about those on Starting Strength, especially those who have gotten into challenging weights. You need most rest time than that.

Exactly what specialized things did I mention? I mentioned that those training for strength need longer breaks. Those training for endurance need shorter breaks. That seems more basic than specialized. If we consider endurance and strength-training athletes, I believe that covers most of the people who go to the gym. Seems to be more than 3-5%.

 

[brikis98]

45 mins time is more than enough in the gym.

A blanket statement like that is meaningless. It completely depends on your goals and the type of workout you do. Just because it worked for you doesn't mean it applies to everyone else.

The whole warmup and cooldown is great for cardio, not really needed for lifts other than a few starter sets.

Again you make a blanket statement and I again I must say that just because it worked for you does not mean it works for everyone.

For example, how much warm-up a person needs totally depends on that person and the workout they are doing. If I don't warm-up and just jump into heavy deadlifting, I'm very likely to injure myself. I need a good 5-10 minutes to get myself warm for heavy lifting, even more for intense Crossfit-style workouts. Other people can skip to their 1RM from cold and be fine. The safest route for most people, however, is to do at least a brief warm-up.

The Cool-down is goal dependent: if you have flexibility limitations - and most gym newbies do - this is the best time to stretch out and increase mobility.

Most people will definitely think more rest is better...in the end you are just wasting time. Those same people are also usually the ones that plateau early and never progress up.

If you are referring to less rest between sets, your strength gains will plateau much faster by reducing rest. This is a matter of basic human physiology. Strength training is predominantly powered by ATP/PC, which gets depleted quickly. It takes a certain amount of time to recharge it. If you don't wait enough time, you won't be able to lift as much the next set. That means you are not providing as much of a stress stimulus to the body and consequently, wont get as much of a strength adaption. In short, you limit your strength gains by doing sets every 30 seconds instead of every 3-5 minutes. Reducing rest between sets has its uses, such as in circuit workouts, but the goal there is not maximal strength but conditioning.

 

[NAC]

If the primary goal of your lifting is to gain strength (which is the goal of SS), then you need to rest for a few minutes between sets. If you are lifting a PR in squats for 5 reps, and are able to repeat it again in 30 seconds, or even two minutes, then you have obviously left a lot of gas in the tank.

An exception is, when starting SS with fairly light weights - then you'll be able to spend less time resting. And that is okay. But once things are heavy, which is relative for each person, you need to rest between sets.

 

[alkemyst]

*sigh* forget about it guys.

How about posting up your BIG lifts for us guys?

All I know is fuck this powerlifting dogma...most can't handle it and you guys brag how easy it is. Only on a geek forum.

I am willing to bet my 4 years off is more than you guys have even started lifting.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

*sigh* forget about it guys.

How about posting up your BIG lifts for us guys?

All I know is fuck this powerlifting dogma...most can't handle it and you guys brag how easy it is. Only on a geek forum.

I am willing to bet my 4 years off is more than you guys have even started lifting.

Lmao. What you lift does not substantiate your knowledge. Either way, you should look at brikis', crt's, and Deeko's journals. We've all put up respectable numbers. We all utilize rests > 1.5min when we're doing heavy sets of 5. You should try reading some of Rippetoe's articles and books. He actually has experience alongside knowledge. Everything you says counters what he says... and he's a big name in the strength training world

 

[alkemyst]

It's great you guys are there for each other and all doing the same thing, however; like I have said before most really don't give a crap about ultimate strength. Most are going for how they want their body to look. Most also aren't going to be suited for pushing themselves at the level of these programs. Most aren't going to want to look like one does when on a real bulk. Most here are also extremely young giving advice, youth gives you everything you need to be cut and big without much work, yet I don't see much of that. Things change a lot by 30, more so by 40 for many.

I know who Rippetoe is, along with all the Westside and other copycat programs. It's all about doing the big movements and near maxes with as much time as you need to get through the 3-5 sets. Yes, you will get strong if you do this, keep adding weight, and keep eating/resting...I haven't seen many strongmen types though that would have that body most women like and this is most people's goals. Also I have seen enough people's lifting get ended by injuries on these types of programs because either they didn't follow proper form, had no spotter, or simply didn't have the joint/tendon/skeletal strength to handle what their muscles wanted to do.

I do squats, I do OH presses. I have to guard my elbow at hyperextension still so I am not doing normal deadlifts yet...I am doing stiff-legged ones now.

 

[Deeko]

Most here and in this thread are hardly power lifters even though they may think they are.

We are speaking in general mostly on these types of forums UNLESS the poster was specific. You tend to pull all the specialized things out of your textbooks that maybe apply to 3-5% of the population if that.

I don't get that.

I'm a competative powerlifter that finished 1st or 2nd in all 3 USAPL meets I competed in last year. I'm by no means an elite lifter, there are guys on here that outlift me per-pound despite being bigger than me, but despite your scoffing attitude, there are real weightlifters here. Also, I work with a coach that's in the state USAPL powerlifting hall of fame, and he was trained by one of the best deadlifters of ALL TIME.

Not only that, this thread is about a book written by a certified expert on the subject, and most of the people posting in this thread are commenting on the book's ideals and the things the book says to do.

Anyway, I'm not one to sit around and espouse the virtues of Starting Strength - in fact, I've been on here many times in the past posting that its not the end-all-be-all to weight lifting. However, that has to do with the specific routine itself, and not the basics of lifting that it teaches, which you are seemingly disagreeing with. One of the basic tenants of the book is on opposition to what you're posting here - that lifting is some specialized thing, only small portions of the population can do it, etc. Those statements are completely false. People that disagree either ARE in a small percentage that has something preventing them from training properly/gaining strength, or haven't really put in the effort to try a proper strength training program.

Oh, and for the record, I wait between 4-6 minutes on my heavy work sets. I also work out with several men who are 60+ and still pull 500lbs, in fact, there's a 60+ year old 148lb woman in my gym that can deadlift 350, so don't go throwing out age numbers like they're some wall. Finally, 'looking like one doas when on a real bulk' is about diet, doing a beginners strength training routine does not come anywhere close to that, and despite your remarks about looks, doing to the gym and doing 100 sets of dumbbell curls without doing any real bulking exercises isn't going to give them the body they want anyway.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

It's great you guys are there for each other and all doing the same thing, however; like I have said before most really don't give a crap about ultimate strength. Most are going for how they want their body to look. Most also aren't going to be suited for pushing themselves at the level of these programs. Most aren't going to want to look like one does when on a real bulk. Most here are also extremely young giving advice, youth gives you everything you need to be cut and big without much work, yet I don't see much of that. Things change a lot by 30, more so by 40 for many.

I know who Rippetoe is, along with all the Westside and other copycat programs. It's all about doing the big movements and near maxes with as much time as you need to get through the 3-5 sets. Yes, you will get strong if you do this, keep adding weight, and keep eating/resting...I haven't seen many strongmen types though that would have that body most women like and this is most people's goals. Also I have seen enough people's lifting get ended by injuries on these types of programs because either they didn't follow proper form, had no spotter, or simply didn't have the joint/tendon/skeletal strength to handle what their muscles wanted to do.

I do squats, I do OH presses. I have to guard my elbow at hyperextension still so I am not doing normal deadlifts yet...I am doing stiff-legged ones now.

And now we confirm that you see the world through bodybuilder's eyes. For most people, if they lift, they'll get a body that they like very much. They don't need to have the enormously disproportional chest and arms bigger than their legs. They enjoy their strength gains once they lose their weight and strive for better functionality for sports. Oh yeah, you forgot about that whole performing for sports thing instead of trying to look "good." And please, why don't you enlighten us on what a real bulk is? We're young. We give advice. You're right there. Again, you put your foot in your mouth though. Do you understand how many people here have a shit metabolism? One that puts them at a disadvantage when it comes to trying to lose weight? Surprisingly, if you never actually been fat, you don't quite understand. Go educate yourself on how their metabolism is fat-conserving, burns fewer calories, fails to rise to many environmental stimuli. Clearly things are different at 30-40. The body changes a bit. That's the first statement you've made founded in science in this thread.

So everyone doing SS is trying to be a strong man? Why don't you go over to 70sbig.com? These guys are huge, have immensely functional strength, and look more like bodybuilders than most who train for it. People's injuries are due to their own misfortune, not the program. People get injured on every single program. Especially when it comes to SS, it's their own stupid fault - Rippetoe stresses form over anything. In MY threads, I stress form over everything. People are more likely to get injured due to insufficient rest between sets than lifting on a specific program.

What does this section of your's have to do with anything?

 

[alkemyst]

I'm a competative powerlifter that finished 1st or 2nd in all 3 USAPL meets I competed in last year. I'm by no means an elite lifter, there are guys on here that outlift me per-pound despite being bigger than me, but despite your scoffing attitude, there are real weightlifters here. Also, I work with a coach that's in the state USAPL powerlifting hall of fame, and he was trained by one of the best deadlifters of ALL TIME.

You and CRT I know are real deals. I never said NOONE here. There are a lot ton of new lifters though that are spouting off here like they are experts and that is a bit dangerous.

Oh, and for the record, I wait between 4-6 minutes on my heavy work sets. I also work out with several men who are 60+ and still pull 500lbs, in fact, there's a 60+ year old 148lb woman in my gym that can deadlift 350, so don't go throwing out age numbers like they're some wall. Finally, 'looking like one doas when on a real bulk' is about diet, doing a beginners strength training routine does not come anywhere close to that, and despite your remarks about looks, doing to the gym and doing 100 sets of dumbbell curls without doing any real bulking exercises isn't going to give them the body they want anyway.

Right, suits real powerlifting. The problem I have is it's SS or the highway here.

 

[Lamont Burns]

Yep I'm new, I'm assuming im in the class of dangerous people. However, I've been nothing but a sponge in the last 12 months. I have read Starting Strength v2, Practical Programming, Alan Aragon's book, and have 2 more from Amazon on the way. I read periodicals, research articles, Bill Starr commentary, etc etc. I read T-Nation. It's not all marketing there.

I share my SS experiences with people who ask b/c it worked for me. I would not be deadlifting 350+ in less than a year of training doing a split routine. I have even posted that once I pull 405 I might change to a split anyway.

I don't think a split is where anyone should start. Opinion. I see people in the gym doing all sorts of iso who were bigger than me when I started, and now I'm beyond them with ease. Size and Strength. That's my practical experience.

 

[brikis98]

You and CRT I know are real deals. I never said NOONE here. There are a lot ton of new lifters though that are spouting off here like they are experts and that is a bit dangerous.

First of all, not everyone that knows about diet/exercise is going to be an elite athlete. In fact, I'd wager that most great coaches were not great athletes, but they studied their sport and know what they are doing. And that's the key: studying, trial & error, research, etc. That is what produces reliable knowledge. Anecdotal evidence - which is all you seem to go on - is far less useful. In fact, gifted athletes can often succeed in spite of crappy training/diet; the same routines would not work for the average Joe.

Having said all that, in addition to Deeko and CRT, this forum also has Eric62 (700+ lb deadlift) Koing (118+ kg snatch, 143+ kg c&j), a number of high level runners (check out the 25,000 miles thread), plus a bunch of other people who have learned a lot about diet/exercise in academic and recreational settings. But really, what do we know? We aren't as old as you and don't have your numerous accomplishments (what are those, again?), so clearly our advice is invalid.

 

[alkemyst]

First of all, not everyone that knows about diet/exercise is going to be an elite athlete. In fact, I'd wager that most great coaches were not great athletes, but they studied their sport and know what they are doing. And that's the key: studying, trial & error, research, etc. That is what produces reliable knowledge. Anecdotal evidence - which is all you seem to go on - is far less useful. In fact, gifted athletes can often succeed in spite of crappy training/diet; the same routines would not work for the average Joe.

Having said all that, in addition to Deeko and CRT, this forum also has Eric62 (700+ lb deadlift) Koing (118+ kg snatch, 143+ kg c&j), a number of high level runners (check out the 25,000 miles thread), plus a bunch of other people who have learned a lot about diet/exercise in academic and recreational settings. But really, what do we know? We aren't as old as you and don't have your numerous accomplishments (what are those, again?), so clearly our advice is invalid.

it's only the same few giving the advice...but thanks.

 

[FortressDewey]

Yall might want to check out the beginner's workout at ProfessionalMuscle.com. I use that personally and one of things I am seeing throughout this thread is overtraining. Your body needs rest (I'm 38 & weigh 180) and I don't work but one section a week and getting reasonable gains.

Some, not all Quick stats:

Squats 1 x 135 x 10 (rest for 3-5 min) 1 x 225 x 6-10 reps
Leg Press no warmup set 2 x 530 (10 plates) x 8

Bench (varies weekly for max growth strength)
flat bench 1 x 135 x 10 (warm up set) 1 x 225 x muscle failure (and yes a spot)
Shoulder's warmup set, 1 x 110 muscle failure

Above is just a sampling of what I do. I also mix it up, ie different exercises to keep the confusion. I'm not so worried about getting "big" as staying reasonably strong and flexible. I do do a lot of stretching. Also, I play competitive racquetball and this helps a lot.

 

[Lamont Burns]

lol

 

[gramboh]

just remember your first set of gains will be your best...eat up and don't be afraid to carry a little extra padding for a couple months. Get the muscle base down. I think this is why I can bounce back so easily after extended periods away from training.

Also remember after about 45 mins in the gym you are going too long. Stick to 30 secs between sets/exercises and that's including setting up for the next. Get in, get out, eat, sleep, repeat.

Sorry, just can't resist this one, alkemyst's advice here is downright dangerous. 30sec rest when doing sets of 5 across in a strength training program is completely absurd. Rest as long as you need between sets. Total time in gym is irrelevant, all that matters is progress on the lifts.

I started with SL 5x5 from an untrained state, found I ended up having to reset too often because of the volume. Also rows are not a valid subtitute for power cleans. The novice program set out in SS Vol2 is much, much better and Rippetoe as a strength coach is on another planet compard to Mehdi (stronglifts.com founder) who really just took Rip's program and changed it.

SS got me about:

Squat: 225x5 to 375
DL: 225x5 to 350 (awful I know)
Press: 95x5 to 175
Bench: 105x5 to 265
Power clean: 40kg to 90kg

Impressive numbers? Absolutely not, but the point is the program works, I'm a 28 year old desk jockey who came from a completely untrained state and made decent gains despite a mediocere diet. I'm currently doing the CFWF program (basically SS with metcon work) which is 4 sessions a week, typically takes me 90minutes a session including warm-up and stretching. Alkemyst seems to think SS is some type of brutal powerlifting routine that requires huge intensity - not even close buddy, it's pretty easy. The program works for the average joe looking to get stronger and as a byproduct, have a better looking body, which is exactly what he seems to be arguing against. Also what are your top lifts alkemyst?

 

[StepUp]

As someone who hasn't gotten the Starting Strength book yet but plans to, how do the exercises flow weekly as compared to SL's 5x5?