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Star Citizen Development Discussion (Is Derek Smart Right?)

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rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,558
83
91
Well I'm glad someone is thinking of balance in this respect because...



It feels like a borrowed time tactic. Create ships now; balance later. Much like the rest of this project, will it snowball beyond what's reasonably achievable?



Blizzard had good games first, and now controversy.

CIG has just had controversy.

Trust me, this is the type of game I've been salivating for since I heard about Star Wars Galaxies back in the early 2000's. I still miss that game even if it was a whole lot of open nothingness. If this game could deliver something approaching that, I'd be completely hooked.



You make a good point. Just make Mark Hammill some kind of bar room NPC and call it day. Enjoy your alpha released game!
I never played the old Wing Commander or Freelancer games....or even the Star Wars titles. So I'm a relative noob to this genre. And I don't like or tend to play multiplayer games. But the idea of a living, breathing universe where you could try to survive and prosper appealed to me. In Star Citizen, I honestly don't want to do much more than small cargo runs and see about upgrading my ship components to make it easier to survive and prosper. That's all I ever wanted out of that title. Sadly they've expanded the scope to something so broad, I can't help but wonder if they can really pull it off. And I also think they're pointing the game towards co-op/group play.....which doesn't appeal to me.

Regardless, I have to admit the journey has been interesting and the controversy has been fun to watch! And that's not ending any time soon....
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
7,835
3,613
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I never played the old Wing Commander or Freelancer games....or even the Star Wars titles. So I'm a relative noob to this genre. And I don't like or tend to play multiplayer games. But the idea of a living, breathing universe where you could try to survive and prosper appealed to me. In Star Citizen, I honestly don't want to do much more than small cargo runs and see about upgrading my ship components to make it easier to survive and prosper. That's all I ever wanted out of that title. Sadly they've expanded the scope to something so broad, I can't help but wonder if they can really pull it off. And I also think they're pointing the game towards co-op/group play.....which doesn't appeal to me.

Regardless, I have to admit the journey has been interesting and the controversy has been fun to watch! And that's not ending any time soon....
Tried Elite: Dangerous? You described a very viable play style of that game.
 

Dannar26

Senior member
Mar 13, 2012
683
26
91
I think you just described Rebel Galaxy and Rebel Galaxy Outlaw.....including the easy money part (I think the dev has done well with these titles).
Are any of these like Descent: Freespace?

Around here, you must suffer the indignity of a posting error until the heat death of the universe.
I see. I'll go get the whips again...

I never played the old Wing Commander or Freelancer games....or even the Star Wars titles. So I'm a relative noob to this genre. And I don't like or tend to play multiplayer games. But the idea of a living, breathing universe where you could try to survive and prosper appealed to me. In Star Citizen, I honestly don't want to do much more than small cargo runs and see about upgrading my ship components to make it easier to survive and prosper. That's all I ever wanted out of that title. Sadly they've expanded the scope to something so broad, I can't help but wonder if they can really pull it off. And I also think they're pointing the game towards co-op/group play.....which doesn't appeal to me.

Regardless, I have to admit the journey has been interesting and the controversy has been fun to watch! And that's not ending any time soon....
Right. I'm worried that because I haven't mired myself in the political landscape of an online game, that I might not be able to accomplish the things I want to accomplish. Honestly, I'm probably pretty much the same as you in outlook for what I want to do. As awesome as bounty hunting sounds, I doubt I'll have the skills developed to out fly and shoot the whale types. But these are all good problems to have -- if there's a game worth playing in the backdrop.

It has been a pretty fun drama ride though. I'll give you that.
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,558
83
91
Are any of these like Descent: Freespace?



I see. I'll go get the whips again...



Right. I'm worried that because I haven't mired myself in the political landscape of an online game, that I might not be able to accomplish the things I want to accomplish. Honestly, I'm probably pretty much the same as you in outlook for what I want to do. As awesome as bounty hunting sounds, I doubt I'll have the skills developed to out fly and shoot the whale types. But these are all good problems to have -- if there's a game worth playing in the backdrop.

It has been a pretty fun drama ride though. I'll give you that.
Well don't forget that IF CIG does what they say they're going to do, the universe will be 90% NPCs. And very vast. So much of the time, you won't have to outfly and outshoot the whale types.

But we've seen little evidence of intelligent AI in the code thus far. So that's a pretty big hurdle CIG need to clear.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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@rivethead @Dannar26

Check out Empyrion, full disclosure it is early access, however there definitely is a game to be played just sort of ruff around the edges. Game has minimal hand holding personally I like that but I understand if someone doesn’t agree.
Sort of blocky looking & beautiful in a weird way.
Single player or multiplayer your call




also the X series.

I think I spent my entire ~80 hours in X3 shuffling space burgers, energy cells, and space whores.
You can shuttle space whores? I’ll have to check this game out.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,365
5,272
136
Elite: Dangerous has been around for awhile and has an insanely difficult-to-use control scheme. I personally won't touch it.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,063
357
136
You're right that the Cat can hold more....but the medical outpost only need 1 CU. So if you're going to do that mission you're only going to get 1000 credit. Now maybe you can piggy back missions and still profit. But the most efficient profit will be to make that run in Aurora. If you're interested listen to anything Tony Zuravic says. He's designing the economic model. He's not an eloquent speaker, but he's pretty talented (in my opinion). At the last Citizencon he did a presentation on how his system will work. It's pretty interesting.....and a great example of how I think CIG does have some talented people.

If "win" is defined as having all of the tools in the toolbox, yes it's pay to win. And yes, this is the model CIG are using to raking in obscene amounts of cash: sell an infinite (?) number of ships that do specific roles well. The problem with that model (in my opinion) is that it's style over substance. Ships are being (have been) sold that have no role. The gameplay for them hasn't been built. And, sadly, I suspect the gameplay for certain ships hasn't even been thought about by CIG leaders. The question isn't: does this ship play a role in our universe? The question (being asked) is: how many of these ships can we sell and how much money will we make?

That's a problem.
If there was no way that the larger, more powerful ship wasn't a massive upgrade then no one would buy it. While sure.. the mission you speak of might go for the Aurora, but (and it's a big but) that mission is probably the small eek your living out missions i mentioned before for the people that can't afford the larger, more powerful ships. It would completely goat-f&*k CIG's whole business model of getting people to spend tons of money to buy ships if the balance was anywhere near what you're implying it'll be. If anything those larger ships would probably make enough to be able to quickly replace the ship if something happened to it. Could you say the same for the Aurora? Having said this, I freely admit that it's possible I'm off my rocker and CIG isn't thinking that far ahead in terms of pissing off those that bought the larger ships. It wouldn't be the first WTF choice they've made.

In a related note.. what happens if I've got the cheap ship and it goes boom? I know one can buy insurance and that'll replace it, but what if I don't have insurance? Does that mean it's game over for me until I can pony up to buy another ship?
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,063
357
136
I never played the old Wing Commander or Freelancer games....or even the Star Wars titles. So I'm a relative noob to this genre. And I don't like or tend to play multiplayer games. But the idea of a living, breathing universe where you could try to survive and prosper appealed to me. In Star Citizen, I honestly don't want to do much more than small cargo runs and see about upgrading my ship components to make it easier to survive and prosper. That's all I ever wanted out of that title. Sadly they've expanded the scope to something so broad, I can't help but wonder if they can really pull it off. And I also think they're pointing the game towards co-op/group play.....which doesn't appeal to me.

Regardless, I have to admit the journey has been interesting and the controversy has been fun to watch! And that's not ending any time soon....
Are those cargo runs just picking up here and flying it over there? Is there some battling involved? I've seen a few people talk about how they only want to do some grind type missions like that and no combat. It makes me scratch my head as it sounds like a job at that point.. only a job that you pay someone else to do.
 
Feb 4, 2009
26,735
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In a related note.. what happens if I've got the cheap ship and it goes boom? I know one can buy insurance and that'll replace it, but what if I don't have insurance? Does that mean it's game over for me until I can pony up to buy another ship?
They’ve been pretty clear, low tier ships will be cheap to acquire. Cheap could mean an hour of playtime “missions” or instant replacement. I am not sure.
Safe to say it won’t be like COD die in your cheap ship and immediately spawn in another cheap ship. Maybe I’m wrong but feels like this games wants you to work for things.
I’m thinking starting players will have some sort of insurance that covers all losses for the first x hours or days or whatever. By the time it expires you’ll have a good feel for what the value of insurance is or what the risk will be traveling without it.
Mostly guesses above.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
102,056
16,286
136
You can shuttle space whores? I’ll have to check this game out.
Of course! There is also the piracy option, but in terms of trade, there are all sorts of cargo that are considered illicit, and prostitutes (which, now that I think about it, are actually sex slaves in this game) are one of those type of cargo. To become proficient in trading such goods, you need to invest in upgrading your cargo ships to defeat the security scanners, as well as speed and defense (I think you become a more frequent target for pirates). Every space area throughout the universe is patrolled by space police, and their ships will simply scan yours as they approach the space stations, or if they just happen to be near you wherever you are.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Of course! There is also the piracy option, but in terms of trade, there are all sorts of cargo that are considered illicit, and prostitutes (which, now that I think about it, are actually sex slaves in this game) are one of those type of cargo. To become proficient in trading such goods, you need to invest in upgrading your cargo ships to defeat the security scanners, as well as speed and defense (I think you become a more frequent target for pirates). Every space area throughout the universe is patrolled by space police, and their ships will simply scan yours as they approach the space stations, or if they just happen to be near you wherever you are.
Ah, I was hoping to be more of a Space Pimp
 

Printed Circuit Bro

Senior member
Jan 21, 2020
411
84
61
I honestly don't know why people are willing to give their money to Chris Robers after he's scammed so many over so long in so many different industries. He's stolen so much money from different investors over the years I'm surprised he's not in prison. TV industry won't give him money anymore, movie industry won't give him money anymore, and even the video game industry told him to go spit which is why he was forced to turn to crowd funding aaaaaaand look where we are now. When will people learn that this guy is a thief?
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,063
357
136
They’ve been pretty clear, low tier ships will be cheap to acquire. Cheap could mean an hour of playtime “missions” or instant replacement. I am not sure.
Safe to say it won’t be like COD die in your cheap ship and immediately spawn in another cheap ship. Maybe I’m wrong but feels like this games wants you to work for things.
I’m thinking starting players will have some sort of insurance that covers all losses for the first x hours or days or whatever. By the time it expires you’ll have a good feel for what the value of insurance is or what the risk will be traveling without it.
Mostly guesses above.
While it would be interesting (and it plays to CIG's Business model with the game) for you to have to buy a new ship everytime it's destroyed, I can't see that not alienating the bulk of casual players.. which I would think are needed to keep your game funded and working. Even if you have to grind a bunch of stuff before you can earn enough in-game cash to buy a ship it will still tilt the game towards those with real money to burn. I never thought I've live to see an real world $$ elitist game, but if this goes that route then.. wow.. it's both awesome and disturbing. I wouldn't take bets on this thing being around long term if this the case.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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While it would be interesting (and it plays to CIG's Business model with the game) for you to have to buy a new ship everytime it's destroyed, I can't see that not alienating the bulk of casual players.. which I would think are needed to keep your game funded and working. Even if you have to grind a bunch of stuff before you can earn enough in-game cash to buy a ship it will still tilt the game towards those with real money to burn. I never thought I've live to see an real world $$ elitist game, but if this goes that route then.. wow.. it's both awesome and disturbing. I wouldn't take bets on this thing being around long term if this the case.
Cheap means easy to purchase with in game money. Not real world money.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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I honestly don't know why people are willing to give their money to Chris Robers after he's scammed so many over so long in so many different industries. He's stolen so much money from different investors over the years I'm surprised he's not in prison. TV industry won't give him money anymore, movie industry won't give him money anymore, and even the video game industry told him to go spit which is why he was forced to turn to crowd funding aaaaaaand look where we are now. When will people learn that this guy is a thief?
Here’s the thing, at the time games we’re becoming more and more bland. Nobody was taking chances with anything. This game brought back the excitement, the prospect of having high minimum specs to have a big, beautiful game, the prospect of having to upgrade your video card to play. Nobody was doing this at the time, they were all targeting the broadest market possible.
While I get what you are saying it goes back to my earlier point. Don’t buy early access if you don’t like the risk.
 

Printed Circuit Bro

Senior member
Jan 21, 2020
411
84
61
Here’s the thing, at the time games we’re becoming more and more bland. Nobody was taking chances with anything. This game brought back the excitement, the prospect of having high minimum specs to have a big, beautiful game, the prospect of having to upgrade your video card to play. Nobody was doing this at the time, they were all targeting the broadest market possible.
While I get what you are saying it goes back to my earlier point. Don’t buy early access if you don’t like the risk.
People were doing all of that just fine back in 2014, including me, who upgraded their ancient computer to play Elite Dangerous when it came out. Space games are notorious for not needing beefy computers so even the industry was dying and nobody wanted to upgrade, which isn't true, it wouldn't have made a big difference when it came to investors deciding whether or not to give Chris Roberts money.

The reason Chris Roberts had funding problems is not because the industry had been in a lul and nobody was upgrading their video cards or something. It's because major investors didn't want to give HIM money (combined with the industry investors' general aversion to space games based on a lack of ROI).
 

Printed Circuit Bro

Senior member
Jan 21, 2020
411
84
61
While it would be interesting (and it plays to CIG's Business model with the game) for you to have to buy a new ship everytime it's destroyed, I can't see that not alienating the bulk of casual players.. which I would think are needed to keep your game funded and working. Even if you have to grind a bunch of stuff before you can earn enough in-game cash to buy a ship it will still tilt the game towards those with real money to burn. I never thought I've live to see an real world $$ elitist game, but if this goes that route then.. wow.. it's both awesome and disturbing. I wouldn't take bets on this thing being around long term if this the case.
You have to buy a new ship in Eve every time it's destroyed and that game's been going strong for a million years. Insurance, ship prices using in-game currency, and the ability to easily generate in-game currency make that point easy to cross off the list.

If you've never seen a real world $$ elitist game, you've never played Eve in the massive PVP battles that major in-game corporations get involved in. Some ships lost in battle are valued in thousands of dollars, and tons of pilots lost several of those ships.

I played in this battle :)

 
Feb 4, 2009
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People were doing all of that just fine back in 2014, including me, who upgraded their ancient computer to play Elite Dangerous when it came out. Space games are notorious for not needing beefy computers so even the industry was dying and nobody wanted to upgrade, which isn't true, it wouldn't have made a big difference when it came to investors deciding whether or not to give Chris Roberts money.

The reason Chris Roberts had funding problems is not because the industry had been in a lul and nobody was upgrading their video cards or something. It's because major investors didn't want to give HIM money (combined with the industry investors' general aversion to space games based on a lack of ROI).
You are free to disagree but a game using minimum quad core 2GHz system in 2014 isn't exactly cutting edge for the time.
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,558
83
91
In a related note.. what happens if I've got the cheap ship and it goes boom? I know one can buy insurance and that'll replace it, but what if I don't have insurance? Does that mean it's game over for me until I can pony up to buy another ship?
If you let your insurance expire and your ship is destroyed, you lose the ability to use it in the game. This will surprise a lot of backers, but no one owns any ships in the game. If you read the terms of service (most don't), it clearly states this this. The ONLY right you get when you hand CIG money is the right to run their computer code on your personal computer.

But if you lose the ability to use a ship, you still have the ability to play the game. The plan is to have ship crew members be paid. So you'd need to work as a crew member until you earn enough to buy the use of new ship (or rent - renting ships is already in the alpha I think).
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,558
83
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Are those cargo runs just picking up here and flying it over there? Is there some battling involved? I've seen a few people talk about how they only want to do some grind type missions like that and no combat. It makes me scratch my head as it sounds like a job at that point.. only a job that you pay someone else to do.
Well I'm one of the people that would be just fine doing small runs without any combat. Space travel, all by itself, is supposed to be challenging and difficult. Landing a fully-laden cargo ship on a small moon outpost should be challenging just due to inertia. But also the mechanical risks - losing a thruster because you didn't spend the money to maintain or replace it, etc.

I would argue that this game - billed as a "living, breathing universe" was never meant to be a space combat simulation.

But, sadly, they've mostly focused on the combat aspect of the game (and it's not great from what I read) - and little else.
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,558
83
91
Cheap means easy to purchase with in game money. Not real world money.
Yes. And CIG has stated that it will be pretty difficult to destroy ships in the future. It's not now - it's pretty easy to see them go boom. But in the future, ships are more likely to be disabled (not destroyed) which then adds gameplay for repair, rescue, salvage, pirating, etc.

We'll see.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Yes. And CIG has stated that it will be pretty difficult to destroy ships in the future. It's not now - it's pretty easy to see them go boom. But in the future, ships are more likely to be disabled (not destroyed) which then adds gameplay for repair, rescue, salvage, pirating, etc.

We'll see.
Yeah I have a feeling that outside of PvP it will be difficult to lose a ship, maybe the damage it takes will be challenging to repair or a simple time sink like this ship is out of action for one hour.
I can easily imagine some vendor in the repair that has quests to get parts or cash to fix or replace.
 

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