Star Citizen Development Discussion (Is Derek Smart Right?)

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Ranulf

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2001
1,840
396
136
As someone who used to follow and troll DS back on usenet for the occasional laugh, Star Citizen fanatics have surpassed him and his BC3k supporters for the top spot of delusional wonks. The fact that SC supporters have spent thousands for digital goods that aren't even created yet or in a working game (and continue to do so), is proof positive of that. Deny it all you want, but they haven't even released Squadron 42 yet. All you have to do is research the Star Lancer/FreeLancer saga to see the deja vu. Long on promises, short on delivery.

Yes, Mr. Smart appears to be correct given what we know of SC so far.
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
60
91
As someone who used to follow and troll DS back on usenet for the occasional laugh, Star Citizen fanatics have surpassed him and his BC3k supporters for the top spot of delusional wonks. The fact that SC supporters have spent thousands for digital goods that aren't even created yet or in a working game (and continue to do so), is proof positive of that. Deny it all you want, but they haven't even released Squadron 42 yet. All you have to do is research the Star Lancer/FreeLancer saga to see the deja vu. Long on promises, short on delivery.

Yes, Mr. Smart appears to be correct given what we know of SC so far.
What's he correct about? You mean the working game many of us are already playing? Sounds like you're the delusional one. They're delivering quite a bit and have been completely open with development.

Shrug.
 

Fallen Kell

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,836
327
126
It is hard to say yet where things will wind up. While Chipopo is correct in that there have been some sloppy communications with the backers, there at least is communication occurring (which is more than can be said of many kickstarter games).

CIG has most certainly set their target high, and yes, they do now compare themselves with Rockstar, and Naughty Dog, and even Blizzard in some respects. They havn't released a game yet, sure, but neither did Rockstar, Naughty Dog, or Blizzard until their first game came out... In terms of development time, it is hard for people who are not involved in software development to understand how it works without previously having done something more complex than an intro to software course in college. CIG also had to build everything from their offices, infrastructure, and staff once they had funding (unlike an existing studio which already had developer teams already in place).
 

Ranulf

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2001
1,840
396
136
What's he correct about? You mean the working game many of us are already playing? Sounds like you're the delusional one. They're delivering quite a bit and have been completely open with development.

Shrug.
You're playing an alpha with plenty of bugs, all shown on videos out on the interwebs. DS is right in that you do not build up some ultra mega world/universe by constantly adding in new features before your baseline is built and then each next level. It is pie in the sky dreamer nonsense. The "Chairman" has no one guiding him, telling him "remember thou art mortal". That you refuse to see this is your own failing and certainly your right. As it is mine to point that out and laugh at the blind supporters.
 

SLU Aequitas

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2007
1,252
26
91
You're playing an alpha with plenty of bugs, all shown on videos out on the interwebs. DS is right in that you do not build up some ultra mega world/universe by constantly adding in new features before your baseline is built and then each next level. It is pie in the sky dreamer nonsense. The "Chairman" has no one guiding him, telling him "remember thou art mortal". That you refuse to see this is your own failing and certainly your right. As it is mine to point that out and laugh at the blind supporters.
Besides the fact I've already linked in substantive evidence of Derekt being laughably wrong about this project at every turn (something the vast majority of detractors can't because their argument is generally either "it can't be done because!!!" or they're just salty), I'd like to point out that just because the alpha has bugs doesn't mean it's not functional or that it isn't fun (hint: it is quite fun, esp since I just spun around 2.5 last night).

When it comes to criticism of SC, it boils down to either blatant trolling (easily seen through lack of evidence and vague claims that the game can't be done) or specific critiques over decisions (Kotaku had some good examples) which doesn't warrant the claims of doom or that this project has 2 weeks (90 days!) tops.

The trolls always give themselves away eventually. Remember, 64bit precision was impossible, local physics grids were fake, and seamless (lol seamless Derekt) transitions were just smoke and mirrors. But hey, at least we get all the free salt we need for popcorn when we get to watch the cycle of the trolls coming out and getting inevitably squashed on every new feature release :)
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
You're playing an alpha with plenty of bugs, all shown on videos out on the interwebs. DS is right in that you do not build up some ultra mega world/universe by constantly adding in new features before your baseline is built and then each next level. It is pie in the sky dreamer nonsense. The "Chairman" has no one guiding him, telling him "remember thou art mortal". That you refuse to see this is your own failing and certainly your right. As it is mine to point that out and laugh at the blind supporters.
The baseline is what's starting to be finished right now. This is what has been happening the past 2-3 years.....all the under the hood work is being built. We're finally starting to see some of that in the alpha build.

And the Chairman actually does have someone guiding him now. His brother Erin. There have been several articles and videos where Chris pretty much says: I hired Erin to tell me what's possible and how long.
 

clok1966

Golden Member
Jul 6, 2004
1,395
13
76
I mean.. if you're not following along, you might think this. Have you been following along?

To suggest it's going to look dated when it's clearly the most ambitious game out there shows a bit of a disconnect between the project and your perspective of it.

And it's not like development is taking 'a long time'. They're actually moving quite quickly compared to other games. GTA5, FFXV, etc. all have taken much longer.
I will admit I quit following along about the time we where supposed to get Combat and it was pushed back 3-4 times (months) We had a hanger and a METRIC TON of PAY TO ADD crap that did NOTHING. This is OPINION only but when you get 50 million.. please let that sink in, 50 million, you shouldn't be making me pay to add a fish tank to my hanger. You should be making the game, and not fish tanks, but if you do add fish tanks, they should be to keep ME interested in a game that wont be out for years, not make me pay. I get the scope of the game is huge, so 50 million may not be all that much.. But its WAY over what was expected, they chose the stretch goals. they said they could make it. This is not some fly by night indie guy who didn't know how this all worked but a successful dev who knows how this works.

I'm not saying it wont release, I'm just wondering when, some light at end of tunnel, and they are doing much better at communication i hear.. I have lost much of my interest and will just wait till it releases and judge it by that. But I sure wont say its going to be beter then sliced bread and keep saying it, nobody knows, and the way its going nobody will for 2-3 more years or more.
 
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preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,755
61
91
Yes.

Chris Roberts has run every project that he's been in total control of into the ground. He started the SC project after he got kicked out of hollywood for breaking a contract with kevin costner.

Derek Smart may be an jerkhole, but Chris Roberts is worse. This is Duke Nukem Forever but X1000
 
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preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,755
61
91
Seriously guys, this might be Derek Smart himself making this post. Nobody cares about DS, and he's known for using fake accounts and his few deluded minions into drumming up hate on social media.

"Is Derek Smart right" by an account with a few posts. And the only user that's basically shitting on CIG has 2 posts.

I say lock thread.
Tinfoil hat much?
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,755
61
91
Estimated delivery Nov 2014
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen

Today date : december 10 2016

What kinda car Chris Roberts drives? How expensive is his house? Where does he goes on holidays? Does he have any yachts? Plane? How much expensive wines he drinks? Did he likes to milk people so he enjoys luxury?

Finished product wasn't delivered on time. If everybody would do business like he is, we would be all naked and starved to death...
You're obviously a Derek Smart sockpuppet account created 3 years ago in order to troll about star citizen on a tech forum /insaneSCfanatic
 

SLU Aequitas

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2007
1,252
26
91
Estimated delivery Nov 2014
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen

Today date : december 10 2016

What kinda car Chris Roberts drives? How expensive is his house? Where does he goes on holidays? Does he have any yachts? Plane? How much expensive wines he drinks? Did he likes to milk people so he enjoys luxury?

Finished product wasn't delivered on time. If everybody would do business like he is, we would be all naked and starved to death...
LOOOOOL. What was the original goal amount? What happens when you vastly exceed that fundraising goal? Are you stating that instead of using the money to improve the game for us, he should instead have taken that money and ran with it?

Your arguments defeat themselves, and they've been done before. They're just sad, pathetic attempts at personal attacks on someone who's been successful in his life by a failure in all walks of life, Derekt.

Come on Husky, try to come up with something at least halfway original.

You're obviously a Derek Smart sockpuppet account created 3 years ago in order to troll about star citizen on a tech forum /insaneSCfanatic
Good contribution to the thread, pres baby, I missed our conversations in the actual SC thread. But hey, weren't you kicked out of there? Glad we found you another thread to push your troll agenda :)

Nah, TechBoyJk is just paranoid....
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia

Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of delusion and irrationality.[1] Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself (e.g. "Everyone is out to get me"). Paranoia is distinct from phobias, which also involve irrational fear, but usually no blame. Making false accusations and the general distrust of others also frequently accompany paranoia. For example, an incident most people would view as an accident or coincidence, a paranoid person might believe was intentional.
Personal attacks, the last resort for those who don't have a leg to stand on.

Ad hominem attacks.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[2]

Fallacious ad hominem reasoning is normally categorized as an informal fallacy,[3][4][5] more precisely as a genetic fallacy, a subcategory of fallacies of irrelevance.

Oh, that reminds me:

Source: Anandtech Forum Guidelines:

1) No trolling, flaming or personally attacking members. Deftly attacking ideas and backing up arguments with facts is acceptable and encouraged. Attacking other members personally and purposefully causing trouble with no motive other than to upset the crowd is not allowed.

First rule. Proudly reported <3
 

SLU Aequitas

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2007
1,252
26
91
Circles. Refer to previous replies :) Also, throwing the Kickstarter date isn't even trying. Thank you, come again.

But just for <3s, said alpha has provided more entertainment than quite a few finished games.

BTW, when is LoD due out? Pretty sure that had a 2012 release date, right?
 

SLU Aequitas

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2007
1,252
26
91
I like this threat :)

Im almost 40 years old, do u really think i give a crap about ban? :D
Ahahaha ur funny little f**** arent u? :D
That's neither a threat nor related to you. Assuming you somehow don't know, that's boilerplate Derekt Smart promises of CIG's impending doom (60-90 days, over 2 years ago at this point), empty blogs (word salads), and constant going back on promises due to his "legal" team (affectionately known as beagle, since I'm pretty sure that's the only thing that could be suckered into working for him). This thread is about Derekt. Please do keep up. :D

Also, since we're playing the age game, I'm only a decade behind :D

"Let's talk about the coming in 2012. This game went into development in 2010, with a different engine in 2011, I scrapped it, and when we scrapped it we had to start from scratch. With the engine, not with the assets. So, obviously, that threw the 2012 date out the window, and... that's it! That's all there is to it! And now it's one year out, and by the end of this year it'll be two years out, and that's why I decided to put it into early access." --- Derek Smart 2015

The ignorance and hypocrisy is strong with this one.
 

SLU Aequitas

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2007
1,252
26
91
To be honest the game when people funded it was promised 2012. Do you know what happens to business no matter what kinda business it is if they are behind 5 years until now? :)
Weird, I swore I was in the first wave of backers...oh wait, I was! I've never had any confusion as to when I thought this would be released, nor is this anywhere close to being "behind 5 years".

See, this crazy thing happened where they blew past funding goals. They added stretch content goals (including the SC piece), we blew past those.

So rather than being dishonest and running away with our money (100% the preferred approach from DS, except no one would give him money), they asked the backers what we wanted.

We voted overwhelmingly that the increase in time to deliver made sense based on the vastly increased scope.

We wanted this, we want a game where the developer has the full time to develop the game and release something that's going to push boundaries.

Also, for reference:

SWtoR development time: 5 years (with a well-established and staffed studio)
ES:O development time: 7 years (with a well-established and staffed stuido)
SC development time: 4 years (starting staff size: 8)
 

SLU Aequitas

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2007
1,252
26
91
I didn't give money to star citizen, I tried free alpha or something don't know what. It was free for few weeks. But... When u set a date for money investors u need to stick with that date...If u can't delivere at that date u need to make a new contract with new date. Did you guys get new contract for giving him money? Did u all agree to new terms? 5 years more for finished game?
So you have no stake in this. Good to know.

Star Citizen wasn't an investment. I work in FS, I know investments :) If you think a KS project is any form of an investment, we got bigger issues to talk about.
 

SLU Aequitas

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2007
1,252
26
91
Yea, I'd rather wait for the finished game if it ever comes, than play mini games for 10 years. The scope creep is real. Half the backers will have died by the time the game is released.
I think that's perfectly reasonable, backing isn't for everyone. I had some strong reasons and the financial good fortune to be liquid enough to put money into this project, but for most people (and like with most games), if you're on the fence, just wait for it to be released. No skin off of anyone's back, yeah?

Regarding scope creep, a good chunk of that was over the course of the kickstarter campaign. $130M in and it's to fund and make this game, it should probably have an increased scope over the original pitched goal I'd think.
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,045
3,913
136
I *had* a Super Hornet, Constellation Andromeda, and Banu Merchantman. All with LTI.

I needed money about two years ago and sold them all. I still have a game package with a M50. I'll be happy if the game releases sometime this decade. I'll probably be running a GTX 1580 Ti by the time it is released.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,923
1,038
126
Im not native american or english speaker. So my question is ur talking about this?

Scope creep (also called requirement creep, function creep and feature creep) in project management refers to uncontrolled changes or continuous growth in a project's scope. This can occur when the scope of a project is not properly defined, documented, or controlled. It is generally considered harmful.
You are correct.
 

Fallen Kell

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,836
327
126
I *had* a Super Hornet, Constellation Andromeda, and Banu Merchantman. All with LTI.

I needed money about two years ago and sold them all. I still have a game package with a M50. I'll be happy if the game releases sometime this decade. I'll probably be running a GTX 1580 Ti by the time it is released.
And probably can have purchased said GTX 1580 with the profits of selling the LTI Super Hornet, Constellation, and Banu at that time (made enough cash that way to have the ships I have for only a couple hundred out of pocket, especially before the last year or so where people realized you can buy whatever cheap new ship that comes out with LTI and do a chassis upgrade to the ship you really want and keep the LTI... only truly limited ships make any cash now, specifically things like an Idris-M, or Scythe).
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
25,389
32,053
136
In a way the fact that they keep selling these 'ships' for a game that is no where near completion does raise some eyebrows for me. Feels a little pay 2 win as well.

/the iraqi information minister will be around shortly to declare all is fine with the game though.
 

Chipopo

Junior Member
Dec 7, 2016
11
3
16
Just gonna leave this here, very relevant to the discussion we've had so far.

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/7338099/#Comment_7338099
-------------
Cook: I haven't made a dinner in 10 years, please pay me money to make a dinner for you!

Customer: You are a famous chef so OK, how much money do you need?

Cook: just enough for 10 people, and it will be done in 20 minutes and be the Best Damn Meal Ever!

Customer: ok, that sounds great! here is enough money for 50 people just in case.

Cook: wow thanks...

*20 minutes goes by*

Customer: So where's the meal?

Cook: well, since you gave me money for 50 people, I decided to change the recipe and make a bigger meal, so I started over. It's going to take an hour now, but I need more money. It will be the Best Damn Meal Ever!

Customer: OK, still sounds great. Here is money for 100 people just in case.

Cook: Thanks it will be ready in an hour!

*hour goes by*

Customer: So where's the meal?

Cook: funny thing, we had a problem with cooking the recipe backbone, and had to start entirely over again. And we need more money, and it will take all rest of the day now. But it will still be the Best Damn Meal Ever!

Customer: I am getting pretty hungry, can I at least get an appetizer?

Cook: I don't want to spoil the meal, so I won't show you anything form the main course, but here are some broken crackers to munch on. Send us More money now please!

Customer: OK, here is money for another 20 people, will that be enough?

Cook: Oh we always had enough money to make the meal, just the more money we get, the more ingredients we can put in it!

Customer: OK, I will wait till the end of the day.

*end of the day*

Customer: So where's the meal?

Cook: *silence*

*the next day*

Customer: I am getting kind of tired eating broken crackers, where is the meal? You said it would be the BDME?

Cook: It's coming along great! But I don't want to show you anything or it might spoil it. And we need more money again, but now we won't be delivering all the ingredients, we can only put the Minimum Viable Ingredients into the meal.

Customer: I don't care, I am starving, just serve whatever you got please.

Cook: Ok I will give you a slice of the meal later today to snack on while we finish the meal.

Customer: for sure later today?

Cook: Yes! For sure later today! Also please send us more money for better ingredients, and cash only no credit!

*end of day*

Customer: So where is the slice of the meal?

Cook: *silence*

Customer1: This is Bullshit™

Customer2: The Cook never promised to give you a slice!

Customer1: Yes he did you idiot, he said it just 7 lines above this one!

Customer2: You can't rush a good meal! Stop acting like an entitled special snowflake-- oh look here comes the cook again, I bet he has our slice!

Cook: Hey, while you are waiting, here is a menu to browse through which shows all the ingredients we are working with, and estimated times for cooking. And please send us more money again, cash only no credit!

Customer1: well, that makes me feel better at least, here's money for another 20, thank you.

Customer2: I am sure we will get that slice, and the morrow tour, and 2.6 and 3.0 in the next 5 minutes because they probably were cooking them all at the same time!...

*Customer1 stabs Customer2 in the head with a salad fork*
 

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