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Star Citizen: Chris Robert`s new space sim (the Wing Commander guy)

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Malibutomi

Member
Sep 25, 2016
32
6
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The development of the game started in 2011 with building a demo on a modified version of the CryEngine 3game engine.

Look guys it appears you have a lot emotionally and financially tied to this game, and feel you must defend it endlessly.

IMO it's just a matter of time before they run out of funds and ask for more.

It's always a possibility to end up on the short end with crowd funding.

Good luck
Yes....and making a few minute demo with a few people is comparable with the established studios work which is fully founded from the start (hint no irs not)

You are entitled to your opinion...its just bad you base it on lack of knowledge + false information.

Yes its a possibility they run out of funds...have you seen that they have 2-4 million income every month? They didn't start with 120 million, and thats all, they started with 0 and earning money every month.
Not to say they have other sources of income which the critics usually forget to mention (the AMD game pack deal for one).


I don't feel to defend the game at all...i do feel to step up and correct the ones who are criticizing without real knowledge on the topic, after reading a few articles which are mostly covering old things.
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
60
91
The development of the game started in 2011 with building a demo on a modified version of the CryEngine 3game engine.

Look guys it appears you have a lot emotionally and financially tied to this game, and feel you must defend it endlessly.

IMO it's just a matter of time before they run out of funds and ask for more.

It's always a possibility to end up on the short end with crowd funding.

Good luck
1) The demo was not built on a modified version of CryEngine. With all due respect, you keep asserting really misguided ideas as facts. Please stop.

2) Your opinion that it's just a matter of time before they're going to run out of money doesn't have any merit because you don't have access to their financials. They still have plenty of money and the option to bring in private capital. Even if they stopped fundraising today, they likely have 3-4 years of runway before they'd have to reign things in.
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
60
91
I'm not sure what you mean with "they set the minimum what should be (edited) in the release, and they will add features after that". Does that mean that what CR has already announced will be in the game, but we may see him announce more? Or is it more of a "here what we know we can do in the announced features, and here's what we'll add down the road?"
Why do you think it's CR that keeps overscoping the game? In the article he even says he wanted the stretch goals to stop. The stretch goals were a response to the increase in crowd funding. Saying it was CR that stretched the goals is putting the cart before the horse and putting blame in the wrong place.

When CR discussed MVP, minimum viable product, it wasn't pushed as you suggested. The MVP will not include all of the stretch goals. The MVP will be released when enough of the project goals have been met to make the game playable beyond just an alpha sandbox. They'll keep developing past the MVP in hopes to complete all of the stretch goals.
 

Malibutomi

Member
Sep 25, 2016
32
6
16
I'm not sure what you mean with "they set the minimum what should be (edited) in the release, and they will add features after that". Does that mean that what CR has already announced will be in the game, but we may see him announce more? Or is it more of a "here what we know we can do in the announced features, and here's what we'll add down the road?"

I couldn't speak on the view of the articles, I've said before that there could be more to it than I've seen. I've asked for more links on the subject, I'm interested even more in ones that show CR doesn't keep overscoping the game like all the articles I've seen do. If you've any, please send them over. I didn't think I would find this subject as interesting as I have. I also didn't think pointing out similarities between it and 38 Studios (and now Duke) would have kicked started some people so much..
It was one of the TFC videos lately where he stated they have the list of features for the "minimum viable product" which would be the released game - Star Citizen 1.0, and the other features will be added one after another after the release.

https://youtu.be/vJoHlCc4Y7E?t=1442

Found the transcript for you:
we'll have what will sort of determine a sort of... MINIMUM VIABLE PRODUCT FEATURE LIST for what you would call STAR CITIZEN the COMMERCIAL RELEASE, which is basically when you say, "OK! Ah, we've gotten to this point and we've still got plans to add a lot more COOL STUFF and MORE CONTENT and MORE FUNCTIONALITY and MORE FEATURES", which by the way includes some of... the LATER STRETCH GOALS we have cos not all of that's meant to be for ABSOLUTELY RIGHT HERE, on the commercial release... but we'll have SOMETHING that we'll think, "Ok yeah!", now everyone can play it you know, it doesn't matter, you can load it up, it PLAYS really well, it's really STABLE, there's lots of CONTENT, there's lots of FUN THINGS TO DO, different PROFESSIONS, lots of PLACES TO GO... aahm, you know, we've got a really good ECO SYSTEM... aaahh... so when we GET TO THAT POINT, that's sort of when we'll sort of say, "now it's not ALPHA it's not BETA, it's STAR CITIZEN ONE POINT ZERO"
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
51
The development of the game started in 2011 with building a demo on a modified version of the CryEngine 3game engine.
A skeleton crew, a few freelance artists, and a little studio outsourcing is what you're counting as "development." It has been said many times that the original assets created for that demo had to be scrapped due to how they were scraped together. It wasn't a proper dev environment, and it wasn't really until halfway through 2013 they had even one studio operating at a reasonable level.

It's not like they have had four studios and $120-something million dollars since day one. The most recent studio has barely been open a year, and they have already accomplished a LOT with that one alone.
 

renz20003

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2011
2,674
593
136
1) The demo was not built on a modified version of CryEngine. With all due respect, you keep asserting really misguided ideas as facts. Please stop.

2) Your opinion that it's just a matter of time before they're going to run out of money doesn't have any merit because you don't have access to their financials. They still have plenty of money and the option to bring in private capital. Even if they stopped fundraising today, they likely have 3-4 years of runway before they'd have to reign things in.
Your the one who posted a graph saying development was started in 2012.

Demo or not it still started in 2011.

I don't care what got scrapped out, it just proves CR is a terrible manager and should stick to design.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,115
425
136
Why do you think it's CR that keeps overscoping the game? In the article he even says he wanted the stretch goals to stop. The stretch goals were a response to the increase in crowd funding. Saying it was CR that stretched the goals is putting the cart before the horse and putting blame in the wrong place.

When CR discussed MVP, minimum viable product, it wasn't pushed as you suggested. The MVP will not include all of the stretch goals. The MVP will be released when enough of the project goals have been met to make the game playable beyond just an alpha sandbox. They'll keep developing past the MVP in hopes to complete all of the stretch goals.
The Kotaku article and every other one I've come across has all stated that he overscopes the game. What started as a simple dog fighting sim has turned into the beast that should be SC when it's released. Maybe he's stopped that now, but you can't pretend it hasn't happened. Again, if you've links to articles where they talk about him no longer adding 'features' to the game, or asking for things to be changed please send them over.. I'm interested in reading a more balanced mix. So far every post that doesn't say how awesome SC will be you appear to jump on to say how wrong it is, but you don't supply anything to back your point. People have posted links to support why they believe stuff for you, but I haven't really seen the same from you. I get that you have a passion for the game, which is really awesome, but I'm not sure making the clear case you think you are.

It was one of the TFC videos lately where he stated they have the list of features for the "minimum viable product" which would be the released game - Star Citizen 1.0, and the other features will be added one after another after the release.

https://youtu.be/vJoHlCc4Y7E?t=1442

Found the transcript for you:
we'll have what will sort of determine a sort of... MINIMUM VIABLE PRODUCT FEATURE LIST for what you would call STAR CITIZEN the COMMERCIAL RELEASE, which is basically when you say, "OK! Ah, we've gotten to this point and we've still got plans to add a lot more COOL STUFF and MORE CONTENT and MORE FUNCTIONALITY and MORE FEATURES", which by the way includes some of... the LATER STRETCH GOALS we have cos not all of that's meant to be for ABSOLUTELY RIGHT HERE, on the commercial release... but we'll have SOMETHING that we'll think, "Ok yeah!", now everyone can play it you know, it doesn't matter, you can load it up, it PLAYS really well, it's really STABLE, there's lots of CONTENT, there's lots of FUN THINGS TO DO, different PROFESSIONS, lots of PLACES TO GO... aahm, you know, we've got a really good ECO SYSTEM... aaahh... so when we GET TO THAT POINT, that's sort of when we'll sort of say, "now it's not ALPHA it's not BETA, it's STAR CITIZEN ONE POINT ZERO"
Thanks for the info. I really hope this means that the game will be released within the next year or so. Did they release what features will be considered locked in, and which are being pushed out?
 

Malibutomi

Member
Sep 25, 2016
32
6
16
Your the one who posted a graph saying development was started in 2012.

Demo or not it still started in 2011.

I don't care what got scrapped out, it just proves CR is a terrible manager and should stick to design.
Your ignorance isn't helping the discussion.
So if they would have just shown some sketches about how they imagine the game that would count as development? Because they basicly did that just in 3D. They had like 3 ship models, 2 avatar models and thats it.

Would you start to develop a game before you know it will have founding? Because most ppl with common sense would't.
 

Malibutomi

Member
Sep 25, 2016
32
6
16
The Kotaku article and every other one I've come across has all stated that he overscopes the game. What started as a simple dog fighting sim has turned into the beast that should be SC when it's released. Maybe he's stopped that now, but you can't pretend it hasn't happened. Again, if you've links to articles where they talk about him no longer adding 'features' to the game, or asking for things to be changed please send them over.. I'm interested in reading a more balanced mix. So far every post that doesn't say how awesome SC will be you appear to jump on to say how wrong it is, but you don't supply anything to back your point. People have posted links to support why they believe stuff for you, but I haven't really seen the same from you. I get that you have a passion for the game, which is really awesome, but I'm not sure making the clear case you think you are.



Thanks for the info. I really hope this means that the game will be released within the next year or so. Did they release what features will be considered locked in, and which are being pushed out?
TBH if they reach a beta phase by end of next year that would be nice...i wouldn't count on a final release in a year...but...they said the 3.0 release will be the first iteration which will start to look like a game: basic professions, earning currency, doing missions, going to lots of places etc. So they seem to be on track now.
 

renz20003

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2011
2,674
593
136
Your ignorance isn't helping the discussion.
So if they would have just shown some sketches about how they imagine the game that would count as development? Because they basicly did that just in 3D. They had like 3 ship models, 2 avatar models and thats it.

Would you start to develop a game before you know it will have founding? Because most ppl with common sense would't.
Indeed it does
 

Malibutomi

Member
Sep 25, 2016
32
6
16
Indeed it does
Ok so you can say they worked on the development of a demo in 2011 before SC development started.

From the Kotaku article:
"With no idea of whether the prototype would be a success, it didn’t make sense to set up a studio and hire staff at the beginning. Instead, Roberts set up his studio virtually and, besides a few freelancers, delegated a lot of the grunt work to third-party contractors who already had established teams of developers. "

So yes they did some work on the demo, but there was no team and studio. They just started building the team after the crowdfunding success. So as it was mentioned before the development of the game (not the demo) was started at the end of 2012-early 2013 when they set up the core team. Because you know without developers theres no development.
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
Your ignorance isn't helping the discussion.
So if they would have just shown some sketches about how they imagine the game that would count as development? Because they basicly did that just in 3D. They had like 3 ship models, 2 avatar models and thats it.

Would you start to develop a game before you know it will have founding? Because most ppl with common sense would't.

From what I've heard, the work done in 2011 was like six people at Lord British' house (Richard Garriott) here in Austin. Those six people included Sandi Gardiner and Ben Lesnick, neither of whom are developers. They built a marketing demo (I don't think you can even call it a tech demo) in the hopes of raising investor capital to begin development of a video game.

That's what happened in 2011.

Personally, I think saying development started in 2011 is disingenuous. But everyone is entitled to their opinions.
 

Malibutomi

Member
Sep 25, 2016
32
6
16
This is why I don't bother. This guy has no idea what he is talking about.
Lol didn't noticed that.

Strange that so many going by this misconception....when the original kickstarter was already about persistent universe and multiplayer.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,115
425
136
Lol didn't noticed that.

Strange that so many going by this misconception....when the original kickstarter was already about persistent universe and multiplayer.
Prob because most articles about it continue to refer to it as a "spiritual successor" to Wing Commander.. It may be a hazy memory but that was a simple dog fighter. Even getting the basic concept of the game wrong doesn't change the fact that EVERY. SINGLE. ARTICLE. says that CR has continued to overscope the game. The adding of layering of clothes because he saw it in another game, the adding of a new inventory system.. This is what I was speaking to. TechBoyJK can continue to act uber awesome because he's followed this game from it's beginnings (and looks to have sunk a bunch of money into it) as if it somehow negates what I was saying, but the fact remains. The game was originally slated to come out years ago.. it continues to be delayed due to changes and mismanagement. I've repeatedly asked for links to stuff that doesn't say that, but no one provides them. I can only assume they don't exist at this point as unless TechBoyJK is just extremely lazy, he would have posted them to prove his point.
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
51
Is the game delayed due to missteps early on? Yes.

Is the game larger than it started in scope and features? Yes.

Am I okay with that? Yes.

I want the game they're building now more than what the plan was when we started. They have the potential to create something truly unique and I want them to take their time to do it right. No rush.
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
60
91
Prob because most articles about it continue to refer to it as a "spiritual successor" to Wing Commander.. It may be a hazy memory but that was a simple dog fighter. Even getting the basic concept of the game wrong doesn't change the fact that EVERY. SINGLE. ARTICLE. says that CR has continued to overscope the game. The adding of layering of clothes because he saw it in another game, the adding of a new inventory system.. This is what I was speaking to. TechBoyJK can continue to act uber awesome because he's followed this game from it's beginnings (and looks to have sunk a bunch of money into it) as if it somehow negates what I was saying, but the fact remains. The game was originally slated to come out years ago.. it continues to be delayed due to changes and mismanagement. I've repeatedly asked for links to stuff that doesn't say that, but no one provides them. I can only assume they don't exist at this point as unless TechBoyJK is just extremely lazy, he would have posted them to prove his point.
I'm at work. It's a matter of time management. I won't spend my time explaining things to people who are grossly misinformed.. ie 'oh i thought Star Citizen was just a dogfighting thing like Wing Commander' but are yet throwing shade at the management style of the project as if they've been actually following along.

A different game was slated to come out years ago. Things changed. Including the game.

It's not about being lazy; it's about not wanting to spell out the ABC's when the information has been readily available for months/years and has already been discussed at length in this thread.

As a matter of fact, the politics of the project aren't even supposed to be allowed in this thread, which is why many of us are scoffing at some of the assertions by the misguided members posting here (Skel, renz, Jstorm, etc).
 

Malibutomi

Member
Sep 25, 2016
32
6
16
Prob because most articles about it continue to refer to it as a "spiritual successor" to Wing Commander.. It may be a hazy memory but that was a simple dog fighter. Even getting the basic concept of the game wrong doesn't change the fact that EVERY. SINGLE. ARTICLE. says that CR has continued to overscope the game. The adding of layering of clothes because he saw it in another game, the adding of a new inventory system.. This is what I was speaking to. TechBoyJK can continue to act uber awesome because he's followed this game from it's beginnings (and looks to have sunk a bunch of money into it) as if it somehow negates what I was saying, but the fact remains. The game was originally slated to come out years ago.. it continues to be delayed due to changes and mismanagement. I've repeatedly asked for links to stuff that doesn't say that, but no one provides them. I can only assume they don't exist at this point as unless TechBoyJK is just extremely lazy, he would have posted them to prove his point.

There won't be articles saying Star Citizen is just in time, and not delayed. Did you ever read such articles about ANY game. "XY game development is going nicely it is NOT dealyed..."
There are no such articles anywhere.
There are articles about the development, about what they showed, or how much funding it has. A game development quietly going on track is not news.

The spiritual successor to WC is SQ42 not SC.

The game was intended to release in 2014 when it was just over at kickstarter with a much smaller cope. Would you rather have a mediocre game, and a smiling CR waving you with a bag of money from Hawaii? "Thanks for the 120million, sadly in 2 years we could only dump 35 in the game, but the rest is in good hand kk thx bye"

I'd rather have them spend it on the game and make a much better game. If you paid attention to my posts the ones looking at development can see that they are developing in an ever increasing pace and bigger and bigger steps since they are done with the engine. 2.0 was the first milestone, 2.5 is another, 3.0 will be again a completely new height, all in a year.
 
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TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
60
91
There won't be articles saying Star Citizen is just in time, and not delayed. Did you ever read such articles about ANY game. "XY game development is going nicely it is NOT dealyed..."
There are no such articles anywhere.
There are articles about the development, about what they showed, or how much funding it has. A game development quietly going on track is not news.

The spiritual successor to WC is SQ42 not SC.

The game was intended to release in 2014 when it was just over at kickstarter with a much smaller cope. Would you rather have a mediocre game, and a smiling CR waving you with a bag of money from Hawaii? "Thanks for the 120million, sadly in 2 years we could only dump 35 in the game, but the rest is in good hand kk thx bye"

I'd rather have them spend it on the game and make a much better game. If you paid attention to my posts the ones looking at development can see that they are developing in an ever increasing pace and bigger and bigger steps since they are done with the engine. 2.0 was the first milestone, 2.5 is another, 3.0 will be again a completely new height, all in a year.
I think the big issue here is that CIG has spent most of their development time on 'back end' engineering issues. 64bit Precision, Item System 2.0, etc. Basically, they're still building the theater and people are thinking they're not doing anything because they've yet to see any plays in the theater.

Basically, people are confused about the lack of content considering how much time they've had and what the budget is. That's understandable, especially if someone hasn't spent that much time following the progress in detail. And unless you're interested in the back end side of things, then that progress and the importance of it is likely not as vividly clear as it could be.
 

Malibutomi

Member
Sep 25, 2016
32
6
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Ok someone tell me how to get rid of the notifications please.
I have unticked every one of them at my profile, even unwatched the topic, still getting an email every time someone posts here
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,115
425
136
I'm at work. It's a matter of time management. I won't spend my time explaining things to people who are grossly misinformed.. ie 'oh i thought Star Citizen was just a dogfighting thing like Wing Commander' but are yet throwing shade at the management style of the project as if they've been actually following along.

A different game was slated to come out years ago. Things changed. Including the game.

It's not about being lazy; it's about not wanting to spell out the ABC's when the information has been readily available for months/years and has already been discussed at length in this thread.

As a matter of fact, the politics of the project aren't even supposed to be allowed in this thread, which is why many of us are scoffing at some of the assertions by the misguided members posting here (Skel, renz, Jstorm, etc).
I wasn't aware of this. Again, if you had provided this info instead of the scoffing, it might have gone better... either way this will be the last I say on it...though it's really bizarre that you attack me and say "it was always supposed to be this way", and now it's "A different game was slated to come out years ago. Things changed. Including the game"

There won't be articles saying Star Citizen is just in time, and not delayed. Did you ever read such articles about ANY game. "XY game development is going nicely it is NOT dealyed..."
There are no such articles anywhere.
There are articles about the development, about what they showed, or how much funding it has. A game development quietly going on track is not news.

The spiritual successor to WC is SQ42 not SC.

The game was intended to release in 2014 when it was just over at kickstarter with a much smaller cope. Would you rather have a mediocre game, and a smiling CR waving you with a bag of money from Hawaii? "Thanks for the 120million, sadly in 2 years we could only dump 35 in the game, but the rest is in good hand kk thx bye"

I'd rather have them spend it on the game and make a much better game. If you paid attention to my posts the ones looking at development can see that they are developing in an ever increasing pace and bigger and bigger steps since they are done with the engine. 2.0 was the first milestone, 2.5 is another, 3.0 will be again a completely new height, all in a year.
I've said before and I'll say it again.. if you (the people who are continuing to invest money in the project through whatever means) are happy then that's all that matters. I came across this whole mess over an article that appears now to be outlawed in this tread as it talked about the politics of the studio. From there I've found myself engaged in debates about CR's leadership and the scope of the game. I have found it interesting, and have read more about this game (that I never really cared much about either way) than I would have expected. I'll continue to read things as they come up as it's going to be interesting what happens. No one can debate this is possibly the largest game ever funded via crowdsourcing. If they do or do not deliver is the interesting question. I know I'll be fascinated either way that goes. I'll drop from the thread now and allow it to return to what I gather from TechboyJK's post is the internal stuff for the people that are actively playing/watching it. enjoy...
 

Dannar26

Senior member
Mar 13, 2012
692
27
91
I don't get the hate.

I paid some money in 2014. It was $30. No sorry, $35 after I got the arena commander pass. I had some enjoyable moments flying my ship and fighting some computerized Vanndul in high fidelity graphics. I fired up Free Space 1 afterword, and I just couldn't go back to it. The graphics and chunkiness were too evident to me, now that I had moved on. At $35 I have already played and enjoyed this game more than some of the other games I bought for more, and/or <insert entertainment purchase here>.

It's clear that progress is being made. It's clear that we're being given content as they develop it. It's clear that they intend to push the boundaries of gaming; something there are MANY threads about here in AT PC Gaming. This is the risk we take to get something better than Assassin's Creed XXXVIII, and Call of Brody MMCDXX. For $35, you're not in? Even in 2016 where there's a community, several podcasts, and working alpha modules? What else could you possible need to see that this ball is rolling, and that this thing is going to happen? A handy from CR? "Aw no man, I read this article on Kotaku that says his hands are really rough."

Bruh. It's 35 bucks. Clam down.
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
Skel maybe this will help. Here's an approximation of the events at Star Citizen

Chris Roberts to the Gaming Community: "I want to build the spiritual successor to Freelancer. Give me $20 million so I don't have to go to a publisher and I'll deliver the game in 2014. We'll even make a sandbox multiplayer game a milestone and if we hit it, we'll build it"

Gaming Community: "Sounds Great! Here's $40 million"

CR: "Thanks! With the extra money we could do this, that, and the other thing. But it's going to take longer. You ok with that?"

Gaming Community: "Sounds Great! Here's another $20 million"

CR: "Ok. Thanks! But no more milestones. We'll use the money to start four studios worldwide....putting a studio where the talent is will allow us to attract better talent and essentially develop the game continually."

Gaming Community: "Sounds Great! Here's another $60 million"

All of this is out there, mostly on the SC website. I'm not aware of any article documenting this because.....it's not really news-worthy. Business-as-usual doesn't generate clicks. But negative stuff does.

The deal is, I don't really see "delays" in any of this. The gaming community asked for more. And were told it would take longer. And agreed to that (mostly.....I'm sure there are Kickstarter backers who only wanted a single player game delivered in 2014....but unfortunately for them they got out voted by the majority).

Having said all of this, I will agree with you that I don't think Chris Roberts is a good game developer. He's a visionary. The team he's built around him, however, appears to include some very good (and proven) game developers including Erin Roberts, Brian Chambers, Tony Zurovec. Which gives me hope that good games will be delivered (eventually).
 

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
13,134
135
106
IMO, the single-player game should have been completed and sold, before the MMO work was started. I would've given money then.
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
51
IMO, the single-player game should have been completed and sold, before the MMO work was started. I would've given money then.
They don't want the single player game to feel like a different game entirely, so it will play like the PU will play. Therefore, they had to wait for the shared underlying technologies to be built out (local physics grids, 64-bit precision, etc).

The up side is they've had a lot of time for content creation on SQ42. I think people will be pleasantly surprised with what we get for it. Some of the leaks for it have been unreal in the amount of stuff we're not being shown about SQ42.
 

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