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Star Citizen: Chris Robert`s new space sim (the Wing Commander guy)

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BoberFett said:
But there's definitely something that smells bad about the whole thing. What started out as a modest space sim with great graphics and ship combat is now... an FPS and a drink serving simulator??? How about getting what you said you'd get done out first, then add more stuff later?
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I will say it again, IT ALWAYS WAS GOING TO HAVE FPS! They USED a FPS ENGINE in the first place BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY WANTED TO HAVE FPS!

From the kickstarter:
Real quick, Star Citizen is:
-A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person.
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Notice the "in first person"? It means, like it says, in first person.

Bigger ships offer bigger multi-player action

On larger ships, friends can join you to man turrets, repair systems, or switch with you on the pilot’s chair. Think the Millennium Falcon with Han-Solo piloting and Luke on the turret.
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Wow, more mentions of characters running around in first person inside a ship defending it. I'm not going to bother looking up the initial videos that discuss it, but from early on, it was always mentioned that the game would allow for recreating the opening scene from "Star Wars" ("A New Hope"), defending a ship from boarding action.

Again, it is WHY a FPS engine was used in the first place to develop the game and not a flight sim engine.
 
RampantAndroid said:
I did say dev hours 😉

I work on software. I sometimes think Scott Adams worked at my company too (doesn't everyone in a corporate setting think that though?) I worked at Broadcom in past, and they're worse...they know how to make hardware, but hell if they know how to develop software.
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You said you were working on a feature. I get it now. So we both work on deadlines. What would happen if you were a year late? Yeah I know. But just answer for these guys 😉
 
You do know that FPS means either frames per second or first person shooter....as in counterstrike.

He's referring to Star Marine, I think. Also, just because Cryengine was used to make an FPS...well, it isn't limited to FPSes.

JSt0rm said:
You said you were working on a feature. I get it now. So we both work on deadlines. What would happen if you were a year late? Yeah I know. But just answer for these guys 😉
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Not allowed to happen - not at my level at least. I've been on a project that slipped a release date by ~6 months. We rolled with it, because our original design/schedule wasn't viable. Engineering damn well knew it, management had their fingers in their ears going "lalala". In the end, I guess a couple of heads did roll. The current project I'm on...well, the train is leaving the station. Your feature is on it or it's not. And if I slip my personal deadlines, I need to have a good reason or suffer when it comes to reviews and such.

I get games are a different beast, but the only games I can think of off the top of my head that slipped deadlines are HL2 (never really had a deadline, I guess), Smart's game and Duke Nukem. Smart's game and DM both turned out to be absolute turds. If you want to spend 5 years making a game, don't give a deadline. But the kickstarter had a release date set 2 years in the future right? They blew past that...and they're still going.
 
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Ns1 said:
nm
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(I saw before the edit, so I'll respond, though I suspect you already know) - Blizzard refuses to set release dates, afaik - they instead roll with "it'll be released when it's ready." I prefer things that way, really...but it's a bit different I think when someone sets expectations in a kickstarter.
 
Fallen Kell said:
I will say it again, IT ALWAYS WAS GOING TO HAVE FPS! They USED a FPS ENGINE in the first place BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY WANTED TO HAVE FPS!

From the kickstarter:


Notice the "in first person"? It means, like it says, in first person.



Wow, more mentions of characters running around in first person inside a ship defending it. I'm not going to bother looking up the initial videos that discuss it, but from early on, it was always mentioned that the game would allow for recreating the opening scene from "Star Wars" ("A New Hope"), defending a ship from boarding action.

Again, it is WHY a FPS engine was used in the first place to develop the game and not a flight sim engine.
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Ummmm, how much dogfighting is done while walking? First person shooter has a very specific meaning. It does not mean a space sim with a first person camera which is what was described. Even if you can walk around in your ship in first person, that's not the same as a first person shooter. It takes years for companies to develop decent first person shooters by themselves, much less also simultaneously developing a space sim within a persistent universe along with a full economy system and all the other stuff they're promising. How much did Destiny cost? How much as the development of the Call of Duties and and Battlefield series cost over the years? Do those games also have all that other massive living breathing universe stuff that Roberts is promising?

Roberts bit off more than he could chew here.
 
RampantAndroid said:
(I saw before the edit, so I'll respond, though I suspect you already know) - Blizzard refuses to set release dates, afaik - they instead roll with "it'll be released when it's ready." I prefer things that way, really...but it's a bit different I think when someone sets expectations in a kickstarter.
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It's also different because companies who develop speculatively are beholden to their investors, whether internal or external. Those investors expect a return, and they're taking a gamble based on the perceived ability of the developer to deliver. The investors also have sway and can push the developer should things start going the way Star Citizen has.

Roberts has taken $84M from people who have no ability to force him to get back in line with what he promised to deliver.
 
BoberFett said:
Ummmm, how much dogfighting is done while walking? First person shooter has a very specific meaning. It does not mean a space sim with a first person camera which is what was described. Even if you can walk around in your ship in first person, that's not the same as a first person shooter. It takes years for companies to develop decent first person shooters by themselves, much less also simultaneously developing a space sim within a persistent universe along with a full economy system and all the other stuff they're promising. How much did Destiny cost? How much as the development of the Call of Duties and and Battlefield series cost over the years? Do those games also have all that other massive living breathing universe stuff that Roberts is promising?

Roberts bit off more than he could chew here.
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I think GTA V cost ~150million, right? I'd agree that he may have bit off too much here. I think he should honestly focus on smaller sections at a time. Get the main sections out - the universe, the ships, the dogfights, economy and such.

THEN focus on adding in the extras - the FPS, boarding ships (who really wants to deal with this? The idea of having to worry about not just a dogfight but ALSO someone trying to bore through the hull of my ship? Sounds a bit excessive), the transport stuff where you can serve drinks (this just sounds so awful)....that stuff should have been prioritized, scheduled and added later on.
 
BoberFett said:
Ummmm, how much dogfighting is done while walking? First person shooter has a very specific meaning. It does not mean a space sim with a first person camera which is what was described. Even if you can walk around in your ship in first person, that's not the same as a first person shooter. It takes years for companies to develop decent first person shooters by themselves, much less also simultaneously developing a space sim within a persistent universe along with a full economy system and all the other stuff they're promising. How much did Destiny cost? How much as the development of the Call of Duties and and Battlefield series cost over the years? Do those games also have all that other massive living breathing universe stuff that Roberts is promising?

Roberts bit off more than he could chew here.
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Rebate process is explained here:
http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&boardid=1&threadid=164409
 
BoberFett said:
It's also different because companies who develop speculatively are beholden to their investors, whether internal or external. Those investors expect a return, and they're taking a gamble based on the perceived ability of the developer to deliver. The investors also have sway and can push the developer should things start going the way Star Citizen has.

Roberts has taken $84M from people who have no ability to force him to get back in line with what he promised to deliver.
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Agreed - SC is a great example of why I think software cannot be built and funded this way. The people paying for SC have no clue how a company is run, no clue how software development works (let alone game development) and so forth. They have no way to understand if someone is a good developer or has laid out a solid plan.

Not that people on wall street are geniuses, but the people on the board generally have a good grasp, and investors can vote on board members. It's VERY different when you have someone with know knowledge of the industry just going "OOooh, I liked Freelancer, he wants to make another one like that, take my money!" I think I've gone in for ONE kickstarter...ever. Exploding cats...and that's because Inman went into that with the proposed design needing money for production.
 
Jeez, I didn't even realize the extent of some of the feature creep. So they're basically redoing the FPS module and deviating from typical FPS mechanics (which were created to make gameplay more fun) in order to ensure that the first person and third person views are synced? Will this hyper-realistic FPS even be fun?

I guess we'll see. My guess is that this game will end up being a jack of all trades, master of none. Including what it originally set out to do: be a space sim.
 
BoberFett said:
Jeez, I didn't even realize the extent of some of the feature creep. So they're basically redoing the FPS module and deviating from typical FPS mechanics (which were created to make gameplay more fun) in order to ensure that the first person and third person views are synced? Will this hyper-realistic FPS even be fun?

I guess we'll see. My guess is that this game will end up being a jack of all trades, master of none. Including what it originally set out to do: be a space sim.
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2 weeks.
 
RampantAndroid said:
THEN focus on adding in the extras - the FPS, boarding ships (who really wants to deal with this?
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This is one of the main reasons I decided to back.

I'm tired of space sims where you only exist as a cockpit HUD. Fly into a space station and open a spreadsheet.

I've always wished for a game where I could actually get out of my ship and walk around the space station - interact with the environment and characters. Or infiltrate a space station or large vessel - that sounds pretty awesome to me.

I think that concept appeals to a large percentage of the community, who are interested in more than just flying a ship and dog-fighting. The allure of "space" in a sci-fi context to me is about way more than spaceship combat.
 
Stringjam said:
This is one of the main reasons I decided to back.

I'm tired of space sims where you only exist as a cockpit HUD. Fly into a space station and open a spreadsheet.

I've always wished for a game where I could actually get out of my ship and walk around the space station - interact with the environment and characters. Or infiltrate a space station or large vessel - that sounds pretty awesome to me.

I think that concept appeals to a large percentage of the community, who are interested in more than just flying a ship and dog-fighting. The allure of "space" in a sci-fi context to me is about way more than spaceship combat.
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The idea of docking at a station and walking around is REALLY awesome - I agree. Having to worry about my ship being boarded though? As in - outside of single player having this problem? No...not at all interesting. The same thing with the stupid insurance stuff. Zero interest.
 
BoberFett said:
Jeez, I didn't even realize the extent of some of the feature creep. So they're basically redoing the FPS module and deviating from typical FPS mechanics (which were created to make gameplay more fun) in order to ensure that the first person and third person views are synced? Will this hyper-realistic FPS even be fun?

I guess we'll see. My guess is that this game will end up being a jack of all trades, master of none. Including what it originally set out to do: be a space sim.
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Wait, so aligning your animation model so that you don't need to keep a separate set of animations shown depending on if you are showing it from the eyes of the character doing the animation vs looking at another character performing the animation isn't a valid goal?

Realism has always been a goal. Faking realism is exactly what he has been trying to avoid from day one. It is the reason ships have thrusters, mass, and engines that need to be able to move realistically in order to produce the impulse vectors to move the ship correctly with newtonian physics. Realism is why when you damage/destroy a thruster on a ship, it realistically acts as though that thruster is damaged/destroyed. It is why the space combat is already so good.

I don't know if the realistic FPS will be fun or not. It will certainly force the people to play differently. It will add a whole new level of strategy to FPS games that doesn't exist in many of them today. Work and move as a group or die. I can see a lot of people who don't like being a team player getting frustrated. People will eventually learn how to play, or simply do something else in the game and avoid FPS situations when they can.
 
Stringjam said:
I think that concept appeals to a large percentage of the community, who are interested in more than just flying a ship and dog-fighting. The allure of "space" in a sci-fi context to me is about way more than spaceship combat.
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Not large enough! I wish more backers had your opinion. Way way too much combat focus in SC if you ask me.

I understand that pew pew sells more than exploration, space flight, etc. But still, the focus seems to be on combat thus far.
 
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RampantAndroid said:
The idea of docking at a station and walking around is REALLY awesome - I agree. Having to worry about my ship being boarded though? As in - outside of single player having this problem? No...not at all interesting. The same thing with the stupid insurance stuff. Zero interest.
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You know how you avoid getting boarded? Don't get close enough to an enemy ship to allow them to board you. Keeping yourself moving is a good first defence. You can also simply fly smaller 1 seater ships. I mean, you still have to worry about someone getting on top of your cockpit and shooting a hole through the canopy to kill you, but you have those same issues whether they are in an eva suit or in a ship.
 
Ns1 said:
But it can't possibly be scope creep - it HAS to be embezzlement. That 11k/month house aint going to pay itself.

I don't need no evidence to go on a fishing expedition, just badly drawn conclusions!
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Of course it can't be badly drawn conclusions! 11k/month houses can definitely not be afforded by successful game/movie producers with money in the bank from previous ventures. Nope, not at all. Has to be embezzlement. :\
 
SunnyD said:
Of course it can't be badly drawn conclusions! 11k/month houses can definitely not be afforded by successful game/movie producers with money in the bank from previous ventures. Nope, not at all. Has to be embezzlement. :\
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I agree nobody answered my question what should Chris Roberts salary be as CEO. What do other game studios CEOs earn?
 
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