Squat help needed

[MrMatt]

I can currently bench for a max of about 260, deadlift 430...and back squat 290 max...with absolute shit form.


I've asked for help on other forums, and many suggested Box Squats. So I did box squats for about 7 weeks then went back last week to regular squatting. I thought it went well, form was much better. Then today I had another leg workout, and my form was just as bad as before. My knees cave in when coming up from the bottom, the weight doesn't come up evenly, they hurt my lower back, I end up doing a good-morning at the top, etc.


Now some things I took note of today so I could post here:

1) When I do squats I feel like my quads are going to pop, I don't mean off the joint, I mean the muscle itself feels like it's going to explode. When I squat it feels like between my knee and hip joint there is just too much quad muscle, and like it's going to actually pop like an overfull meat-filled balloon. It's weird. I notice it especially with a narrower stance squat, but even squatting with my feet spread as wide as I comfortably can, I still feel like this.

2) Going along with #1, I feel squats almost entirely in my upper quad, VERY close to the hip joint, but on top of my quad, so the part facing forward. That region of my quad (again, NOT the joint, the actual muscle) is so battered after even a single set of squats that it actually cramps.

3) I don't know what people mean when they say drive from the hips

4) When I sit back to squat, I never feel like I can get my ass back far enough. Even if I'm leaning back so far on my heals that my toes come off the ground, I can barely sit back, if I do I'll fall backwards, even just at bodyweight. ESPECIALLY near parallel,

5) On box squats, as you get to parallel and just below, are you supposed to basically 'fall' those last few inches onto the box, or is it supposed to be controlled all the way down? Because I definitely 'fall' the last 2 or 3 inches onto the box with anything more than about 100 lbs.

6) And finally my back, knees, and hips still torque like a motherfucking wise and beautiful woman when I'm at the higher weight in my range. My knees cave in, one side of my body is always a few inches higher than the other, and it feels incredibly unstable.

 

[Howard]

Do you have a video?

 

[brikis98]

To be honest, it sounds like your biggest problem is that you don't have an understanding of how a proper squat really works. I don't mean this as an insult - the exercise is just not at all intuitive for many people (myself included). The absolute best resource I've seen for learning how to squat properly is Starting Strength. There is a 60 page chapter that is devoted to squatting properly, including tons of very useful illustrations, mental cues and exercises you can do. On top of that, the book also has awesome descriptions of other core exercises - deadlift, OH press, bench press, and power clean - and even after doing some of those for years, I still learned a lot from reading it. The Starting Strength DVD is also a wonderful complement to the book, letting you see proper form (and improper form when the students screw up) in action. If you're going to be spending countless hours at a gym doing these exercises, it's worth spending a little money and a few hours up front to make sure you're doing it right.

Originally posted by: MrMatt
I've asked for help on other forums, and many suggested Box Squats. So I did box squats for about 7 weeks then went back last week to regular squatting.

Although I can guess why they were recommended to you (they definitely help teach hip drive out of the hole), I personally think box squats are not appropriate in your situation. In general, box squats are an advanced exercise and only recommended for advanced lifters with already solid squat technique. If you're struggling with the basic form, they are not a great choice and potentially even dangerous.

Originally posted by: MrMatt
1) When I do squats I feel like my quads are going to pop, I don't mean off the joint, I mean the muscle itself feels like it's going to explode. When I squat it feels like between my knee and hip joint there is just too much quad muscle, and like it's going to actually pop like an overfull meat-filled balloon. It's weird. I notice it especially with a narrower stance squat, but even squatting with my feet spread as wide as I comfortably can, I still feel like this.

This could be a few different things, but my guess is that you are letting your knees drift forward all through out the squat. If knees get too far forward in the bottom position, they end up stretching several tendons that go from the knee joint to the hip joint. This potentially leads to pain in the hips and eventually tendonitis. This is covered in detail in Starting Strength, but the general idea is that your knees should travel forward during the first ~1/3 of the squat, after which they reach their final position (usually a bit in front of the toes) and stay put. The rest of the squat is your hips lowering down and then back up.

One way to help prevent your knees from sliding too far forward is to consciously push them out (that is, away from each other). Your foot stance in the squat should have your heels roughly shoulder width apart and your toes pointed out at ~30 degrees. When seen from above, your thighs should end up tracking directly over your feet, which means your knees will have to be pushed out 30 degrees as well. Since you've mentioned before that your knees buckle together, you'll have to consciously exaggerate this motion just to get your knees in the right place. One other thing recommend in SS is to use the "terribly useful block of wood": set up a block of wood just in front of your toes. When you squat down, your knee should touch the block during the first 1/3 of the squat, but NOT knock it over during the rest of the squat.

Originally posted by: MrMatt
2) Going along with #1, I feel squats almost entirely in my upper quad, VERY close to the hip joint, but on top of my quad, so the part facing forward. That region of my quad (again, NOT the joint, the actual muscle) is so battered after even a single set of squats that it actually cramps.

3) I don't know what people mean when they say drive from the hips

These two points go together. The back squat is not a quad exercise, but rather a hip exercise. Your quads are certainly used through out the motion, but most of the power should come from your hips. Again, this is also covered in excruciating detail in SS, but to generate "hip drive" you must be using your "hip extensors." The hip extensors are primarily your glutes, hamstrings and adductors. Learning to use the hip extensors in the squat is challenging and again, my recommendation is to read the book for a thorough discussion. The main points are:

1. You must keep your feet flat on the ground. Many people roll forward onto their toes, so you must use the exaggerated mental cue of keeping your weight on your heels (and even being able to lift your toes up inside your shoes) to get your weight even over the entire foot.

2. You must squat so that your hip joint ends up bellow your knee joint (below parallel). If you squat above parallel, you eliminate virtually all your hip drive and put your knees in danger of injury.

3. As mentioned before, it's crucial to push your knees out (away from each other) so that your thighs are directly over your toes. This will help enormously in generating hip drive, achieving proper depth, maintaining a proper lumbar arch and so on. Think "knees out" during each rep.

4. Start the drive out of the hole not by trying to lift your chest up and straighten out but by driving your butt directly upwards. To see what this feels like, get into a squat and have a friend push directly downward onto the small of your back. To stand up, you'll have to push directly upwards with your hips/butt against his hand. If you can do this and remain balanced, you're using hip drive.

5. Some people just don't have conscious control over their glutes. Following some of the glute activation exercises from stronglifts can help you learn to feel and control your posterior chain better.

Originally posted by: MrMatt
4) When I sit back to squat, I never feel like I can get my ass back far enough. Even if I'm leaning back so far on my heals that my toes come off the ground, I can barely sit back, if I do I'll fall backwards, even just at bodyweight. ESPECIALLY near parallel,

Sitting back is a very useful mental cue, but in reality, you squat between your legs. This video with Dan John does a great job of discussing this.

Originally posted by: MrMatt
5) On box squats, as you get to parallel and just below, are you supposed to basically 'fall' those last few inches onto the box, or is it supposed to be controlled all the way down? Because I definitely 'fall' the last 2 or 3 inches onto the box with anything more than about 100 lbs.

Avoid box squats for now.

Originally posted by: MrMatt
6) And finally my back, knees, and hips still torque like a motherfucking wise and beautiful woman when I'm at the higher weight in my range. My knees cave in, one side of my body is always a few inches higher than the other, and it feels incredibly unstable.

First, stop squatting heavy before you seriously hurt yourself. It's good that you realize you need to improve your form, so check your ego and drop the weight real low until you're doing things properly.

Second, besides all the points I mentioned above, it's also possible you are lacking the necessary flexibility for a proper squat. To maintain proper lumbar extension, you need fairly flexible hamstrings, glutes and lower back. Do an air squat (ie, unweighted squat) while watching yourself in the mirror. Does your back stay full extended all the way down, or does your butt curl under when as you approach parallel? If it's the latter, you'll definitely need to start working on your hamstring flexibility, as tight hamstrings will pull the pelvis "under" when placed under the tension of a full squat. Doing the "squat stretch" can also help.

And finally, here are a few more useful resources for learning to squat:

Stronglifts Squat Tutorial
Mark Rippetoe: Intro to the squat
Mark Rippetoe: Fixing the squat, hip drive
Crossfit Exercises Page

 

[KingGheedora]

Excellent post, brikis.

 

[Eomer of Aldburg]

bravo!

 

[MrMatt]

AWESOME post brikis! I'm gonna pour through it after.

 

[GenHoth]

/thread

Where do you find the time to answer all these questions?

 

[Onita]

Originally posted by: GenHoth
/thread

Where do you find the time to answer all these questions?

I'm sure by now he's gotta have half of these answers ready for copy and pastes

 

[scootermaster]

Not to thread hijack here, but I figured I'd ask, since it's somewhat pertinent:

My hamstrings are insanely tight. Like, epically tight. If they ever snapped, they'd probably fly right out of my legs and slap me in the face.

To the point where I tried to do some lower back stretches (since I sometimes get lower back tightness) by lying on a flat surface and bringing my knees to my chest, and I couldn't even stretch out my lower back because my hammys and ab/aductors wouldn't let my knees get there without some pain. (I actually have some abductor issues too, but that's neither here nor there)

The point:

I need to stretch my hammys. Stat. I remember all the shit I used to do running hurdles, but doing a hurdler stretch and slamming your foot against the wall of a steel shed (so it has some give) is probably not the best way of loosening up your hammys (although it did work!)

So, how do I loosen up my hammys?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Did you ever do those drills where you held onto a rail or a fence and did hurdle kicks back and forth? As in you are facing perpendicular to the fence/rail and you swing your straightened leg straight up (kinda like hurdling) and then bring it back down and continue. I do those and they help a great deal. If you don't know what I mean, I'll find a video, but I already tried and it's a little bit more difficult than I think it should be, lol.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: scootermaster
Not to thread hijack here, but I figured I'd ask, since it's somewhat pertinent:

My hamstrings are insanely tight. Like, epically tight. If they ever snapped, they'd probably fly right out of my legs and slap me in the face.

To the point where I tried to do some lower back stretches (since I sometimes get lower back tightness) by lying on a flat surface and bringing my knees to my chest, and I couldn't even stretch out my lower back because my hammys and ab/aductors wouldn't let my knees get there without some pain. (I actually have some abductor issues too, but that's neither here nor there)

The point:

I need to stretch my hammys. Stat. I remember all the shit I used to do running hurdles, but doing a hurdler stretch and slamming your foot against the wall of a steel shed (so it has some give) is probably not the best way of loosening up your hammys (although it did work!)

So, how do I loosen up my hammys?

Do hamstring stretches, such as Pike stretches or the static and PNF strethces listed here. The exact stretches you do aren't terribly important, but consistency is. Do it 3-5 times per week minimum, 2 or 3 stretches, holding each stretch 20-30 seconds. Only stretch AFTER you are very well warmed up, otherwise the stretching won't be nearly as effective and you could even injure yourself.

 

[scootermaster]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Did you ever do those drills where you held onto a rail or a fence and did hurdle kicks back and forth? As in you are facing perpendicular to the fence/rail and you swing your straightened leg straight up (kinda like hurdling) and then bring it back down and continue. I do those and they help a great deal. If you don't know what I mean, I'll find a video, but I already tried and it's a little bit more difficult than I think it should be, lol.

We used to have days where we wouldn't even really run...we'd just slam our hams for an hour and a half. Like I said, most of it was taking a three step approach and then kicking this steel shed, while trying to lean over into a hurdling position (i.e. arm blocked, chest down to leg as far as it'll go, legs at as close to 90 degrees as possible).

We'd do other stretches as well...that's pretty much the only time in my entire life I've been anywhere near as flexible as I need to be.

Brikis:

I work out MWF, and I do a 10 minute warmup on the elliptical (and live in Southern California, so it's rarely "cold"). So if I did that, and then did one sitting stretch and something like dynamic leg swings three times a week, would that been good? I can do stuff at home, but I'd be cold. THoughts?

(And thank you so much for the advice!)

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: scootermaster
Brikis:

I work out MWF, and I do a 10 minute warmup on the elliptical (and live in Southern California, so it's rarely "cold"). So if I did that, and then did one sitting stretch and something like dynamic leg swings three times a week, would that been good? I can do stuff at home, but I'd be cold. THoughts?

(And thank you so much for the advice!)

I would not recommend doing *any* static or PNF stretches before a workout. It's actually been shown to make you a bit weaker and doesn't do much for injury prevention. Instead, do dynamic stretches before the workout, as these will warm you up nicely, help increase flexibility a little bit and actually do help prevent injuries without any negative impact on performance. After the workout, do several static/PNF stretches from the links I posted earlier. These will help you make big gains in flexibility and reduce DOMS in the following days. However, I must again point out that consistency is the key: improvements in flexibility are slow to develop and tend to revert quickly, so stretch after EVERY workout and preferably on 1 or 2 off days as well. It takes less than 5 minutes per day, but the benefits are huge, so you really have no excuse to skip it.

 

[scootermaster]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: scootermaster
Brikis:

I work out MWF, and I do a 10 minute warmup on the elliptical (and live in Southern California, so it's rarely "cold"). So if I did that, and then did one sitting stretch and something like dynamic leg swings three times a week, would that been good? I can do stuff at home, but I'd be cold. THoughts?

(And thank you so much for the advice!)

I would not recommend doing *any* static or PNF stretches before a workout. It's actually been shown to make you a bit weaker and doesn't do much for injury prevention. Instead, do dynamic stretches before the workout, as these will warm you up nicely, help increase flexibility a little bit and actually do help prevent injuries without any negative impact on performance. After the workout, do several static/PNF stretches from the links I posted earlier. These will help you make big gains in flexibility and reduce DOMS in the following days. However, I must again point out that consistency is the key: improvements in flexibility are slow to develop and tend to revert quickly, so stretch after EVERY workout and preferably on 1 or 2 off days as well. It takes less than 5 minutes per day, but the benefits are huge, so you really have no excuse to skip it.

Okay, no problem. Leg swings before my workout (but after my elliptical) and static stretches after. Done and done.

But what's a good warmup, then, on off days? I mean, do I go run around the block for 5 minutes and then stretch? Or maybe I'm missing your meaning. The only reason I suggested doing it "only" 3 times a week is because obviously I won't be cold at the gym.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: scootermaster
But what's a good warmup, then, on off days? I mean, do I go run around the block for 5 minutes and then stretch? Or maybe I'm missing your meaning. The only reason I suggested doing it "only" 3 times a week is because obviously I won't be cold at the gym.

Anything you want, really. You could, for example, do a bunch of dynamic stretches to warm-up. You could jump rope for a few minutes, take a brief jog, do a circuit of push-ups/pull-ups/air squats, whatever. If you do cardio on your off days from lifting, do it after that. It's really up to you.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: scootermaster

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: scootermaster
Brikis:

I work out MWF, and I do a 10 minute warmup on the elliptical (and live in Southern California, so it's rarely "cold"). So if I did that, and then did one sitting stretch and something like dynamic leg swings three times a week, would that been good? I can do stuff at home, but I'd be cold. THoughts?

(And thank you so much for the advice!)

I would not recommend doing *any* static or PNF stretches before a workout. It's actually been shown to make you a bit weaker and doesn't do much for injury prevention. Instead, do dynamic stretches before the workout, as these will warm you up nicely, help increase flexibility a little bit and actually do help prevent injuries without any negative impact on performance. After the workout, do several static/PNF stretches from the links I posted earlier. These will help you make big gains in flexibility and reduce DOMS in the following days. However, I must again point out that consistency is the key: improvements in flexibility are slow to develop and tend to revert quickly, so stretch after EVERY workout and preferably on 1 or 2 off days as well. It takes less than 5 minutes per day, but the benefits are huge, so you really have no excuse to skip it.

Okay, no problem. Leg swings before my workout (but after my elliptical) and static stretches after. Done and done.

But what's a good warmup, then, on off days? I mean, do I go run around the block for 5 minutes and then stretch? Or maybe I'm missing your meaning. The only reason I suggested doing it "only" 3 times a week is because obviously I won't be cold at the gym.

If you're used to the whole track thing like I am, run a half a mile, do dynamic stretches (including the leg swings, a-skips, c-skips, high knees, buttkicks, etc), and then do whatever you want. If you're not going to be working out a certain day, you could actually do some PMF (proprioceptive muscular faciliation) stretches. For the hamstrings, you'd need some help from someone, but this is the quickest way to get limber. Here's a link about PNF stretching.

 

[Sciron]

The following link is Dan John (danjohn.org) giving a seminar on how to do a squat. It is about an hour long and he goes through squats and RDL's... Watch the video, practice it with light weight and you should get your form down in no time!.

http://video.google.com/videop...d=-6529481301858251744

 

[Snakexor]

op, try to make sure your feet are shoulder width apart....

 

[Unmoosical]

Originally posted by: Sciron

The following link is Dan John (danjohn.org) giving a seminar on how to do a squat. It is about an hour long and he goes through squats and RDL's... Watch the video, practice it with light weight and you should get your form down in no time!.

http://video.google.com/videop...d=-6529481301858251744

I was gonna post this is no one else had. It's a good resource for sure.

 

[MrMatt]

Thanks for all the links, posted latest leg workout in journal.