Squat - form help

[calvinbiss]

First time posting in ATHF!

To the point: I have following the Stronglifts 5x5 workout for about 3 months now (after learning about it from this forum) and am loving it. I had been regularly lifting at the gym for 2 years prior to starting stronglifts, but doing normal "bodybuilding" type exercises.

My 5x5 squat had gotten to 325 lbs when one of the trainers at the gym mentioned that I should try to "sit back" a little more. I widened my stance a little and was able to improve my form some for the rest of the exercise. The squat exercise had been getting brutal since about 300 lbs so, after the event with the trainer, I decided to back the weight down and concentrate on getting the form right as I progressed up again in weight. The next workout I only loaded 275 lbs and I was able to squat deeper and could feel my hamstrings engaged more, which is good.

The next workout (280 lbs), I decided I to film myself so that I know I was getting parallel. Unfortunately, I don't think I quite am. I also don't know how I would get any lower being that my knees are already right over my toes at my lowest position.

Anyway, here is a film showing 2 of my 5 sets. I guess I am looking for any input of my form or what I can do to get lower (without hurting me knees!) Think I should come down more on weight?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8advWhEiBes

 

[brikis98]

I'm sorry to tell you, but that is barely a half squat. A full squat is when the the hip joint is below the knee and you are not even close. This means you are not deriving anywhere near the full benefits of the squat as the glutes, hamstrings, adductors and many other muscles do not engage from such a short ROM. Moreover, this is actually worse for your knees than a full squat as the hamstrings cannot engage to balance the torque around the knee. You have some serious work to do:

1. Drop the weight down. Way down. There is a good chance you'd struggle to squat 225 to full depth. It sucks, but you need to check your ego. The squat is NOT worth doing if you aren't doing it right. You'll even want to start with air squats - check out the Crossfit exercises page for videos. Don't worry about your knees moving in front of your toes: this is not dangerous and is largely a factor of the type of squat being performed.

2. Buy this book. It is the best resource I've seen for learning all the major barbell lifts, including a 60 page chapter on squats. The routine from that book is actually the basis for Stronglifts 5x5. The book is worth every penny and I highly recommend spending a couple hours reading before wasting hundreds of hours doing things wrong at the gym.

3. Other good resources include the Stronglifts squat tutorial, the Squat Rx series, and the Dan John FitCast.

 

[Insomniator]

100% agree with brikis... that is like not even a squat. Full squats are really substantially harder and 225 is about the max I'll go for 3x5. Going down 10 inches I could probably do 275 no problem.

How tall are you? It looks like your stance is very narrow but its hard to tell from that angle... Widen your stance and make your knees follow the angle of your feet.

 

[Howard]

100% agree with brikis... that is like not even a squat. Full squats are really substantially harder and 225 is about the max I'll go for 3x5. Going down 10 inches I could probably do 275 no problem.

How tall are you? It looks like your stance is very narrow but its hard to tell from that angle... Widen your stance and make your knees follow the angle of your feet.

Might want to reword that, some people may interpret your statement as saying that 225lbs is the max recommended squat weight for a 3x5 routine.

 

[calvinbiss]

Thanks for the responses. I knew lowering the weight was going to be an answer. I have no problems with my ego and want to do it right. I think I started the stronglifts at like 175 on squat and felt like I was getting a full squat. I definitely lost it along the way and should have dropped back.

I am 5'10. Started with my feet about shoulder width apart and toes pointed out about 30 degrees. Have since widened my stance some and my knees now do follow my toes.

I plan to be at the gym tomorrow and will significantly lower the weight and film it again. Hopefully I will have a good update afterward.

 

[brikis98]

Thanks for the responses. I knew lowering the weight was going to be an answer. I have no problems with my ego and want to do it right. I think I started the stronglifts at like 175 on squat and felt like I was getting a full squat. I definitely lost it along the way and should have dropped back.

I am 5'10. Started with my feet about shoulder width apart and toes pointed out about 30 degrees. Have since widened my stance some and my knees now do follow my toes.

I plan to be at the gym tomorrow and will significantly lower the weight and film it again. Hopefully I will have a good update afterward.

Along with the weighted squats, film yourself doing some air squats so we can see if it is just an issue of heavy weight or bad technique/flexibility in general. Try to get your whole body in the shot if possible as it's hard to judge a squat by just watching the legs.

 

[Whisper]

Along with the weighted squats, film yourself doing some air squats so we can see if it is just an issue of heavy weight or bad technique/flexibility in general. Try to get your whole body in the shot if possible as it's hard to judge a squat by just watching the legs.

He did actually have more of a full-body view at about the half-way point of the video, which made things easier to examine. Mostly just looked like he needed to get the hips lower, so it's very possible that it could be a flexibility issue.

OP, as brikis mentioned, are you able to air squat to the point that your backside touches or nearly touches your heels? And do you regularly perform hamstring and squat stretches?

Edit: Also, I could be wrong, but in the second or third rep at the full-body angle, I thought I saw you start shifting weight towards the balls of your feet rather than driving entirely with the heels. That could be another symptom of reduced flexibility.

 

[calvinbiss]

I didn't read the posts before I went to the gym this morning, so no film of air squats. I guess I could do some now.... And these are about the best angles I can get without getting someone to hold it for me.

Anyway, dropped weight to 155 and did my five sets of 5. Here is the film of 2 of the sets: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOPGudXY2CA

Whisper - when I watch this film, I can see when I shift my weight towards my toes. I will concentrate more on keeping in my heels.

As far as flexibility goes - I stretch for about 5 minutes before starting the exercise and I do a set of 10 with the bar only before. I include the "indian squat" or squatting all the way down and pushing out on the inside of my knees with the elbows (hands clasped in front of me).

Thoughts?

And again, thanks for the input. I knew this was the place to come.

 

[Whisper]

Initial impression is that definitely looks much better.

 

[bommy261]

looks much better.. look up to the ceiling for the whole exercise,focus on flexing your abs and keeping your back straight. if you find it hard to flex your abs, blow out your stomach to make a bigger base for yourself.. this will help you when u start doing heavier weights again.

you probably shouldn't stretch before working out either because it makes your muscles weaker, but definetely warm up by doing a quick run, and do like 20 reps with just the bar before putting on weight... u will avoid injury that way

 

[SociallyChallenged]

looks much better.. look up to the ceiling for the whole exercise,focus on flexing your abs and keeping your back straight. if you find it hard to flex your abs, blow out your stomach to make a bigger base for yourself.. this will help you when u start doing heavier weights again.

you probably shouldn't stretch before working out either because it makes your muscles weaker, but definetely warm up by doing a quick run, and do like 20 reps with just the bar before putting on weight... u will avoid injury that way

This is not the best advice. Looking up at the ceiling typically makes people engage muscles in their neck. Because of that, they strain unnecessarily and have resulting neck soreness/pain/issues. The individual should keep his or her head in a neutral position and pay attention to other proprioceptive cues from their body.

Also, the rest of your cues aren't very good. I have no idea what you're trying to say by "blowing out your stomach." The best cue is to tell the person to breathe a fairly large breath and flex without releasing the air. That's the Valsalva maneuver, which allows for optimal tightness of the core during heavy lifts. The OP doesn't seem to be having ANY of these problems so giving unnecessary feedback is counterproductive.

OP: Your second video looks much better. This thread motivated me to record some squat sets myself, which I'll post in my journal later. I'd say you should work on your glute flexibility so getting deep in the squat is easier and less uncomfortable. Nice job at the lighter weight though.

 

[calvinbiss]

I'd say you should work on your glute flexibility so getting deep in the squat is easier and less uncomfortable.

Butt flexibility!?! Got any good stretch ideas?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Butt flexibility!?! Got any good stretch ideas?

I have the same problem, so yes Here's a picture of a good one:

Essentially, you cross your leg over and pull it into your chest. It will stretch your gluteus maximus relatively well. Also, there is a squat-specific stretch that works very well for promoting glute flexibility. Here's a picture:

Make sure you keep your heels on the floor at all times. Only go as low as you can without having them come up. Hold it however long you're comfortable with. I typically hold it for 30s, shake it out, and do it again for another 30s. I promise these will help you. Let me know what you think of them.

 

[Howard]

There's a stretch that you can do that hits something in your ass area, but I don't know if it's the glute max. While sitting in a chair, cross one leg over the other (figure 4, not ball-hugger style) and lean forward at the hips.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

There's a stretch that you can do that hits something in your ass area, but I don't know if it's the glute max. While sitting in a chair, cross one leg over the other (figure 4, not ball-hugger style) and lean forward at the hips.

That's essentially the same stretch as the first picture. It works quite well though. I do those all the time in class since it doesn't look silly.

 

[Whisper]

Both of the stretches that SC posted definitely work very well, and I regularly do them before--and while--I'm squatting.

Also, a bonus to adding the stretches in, and to squatting in general, is that it generally gets your hamstrings nice and limbered-up for subsequent deadlift sets.

 

[brikis98]

I didn't read the posts before I went to the gym this morning, so no film of air squats. I guess I could do some now.... And these are about the best angles I can get without getting someone to hold it for me.

Anyway, dropped weight to 155 and did my five sets of 5. Here is the film of 2 of the sets: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOPGudXY2CA

Whisper - when I watch this film, I can see when I shift my weight towards my toes. I will concentrate more on keeping in my heels.

As far as flexibility goes - I stretch for about 5 minutes before starting the exercise and I do a set of 10 with the bar only before. I include the "indian squat" or squatting all the way down and pushing out on the inside of my knees with the elbows (hands clasped in front of me).

Thoughts?

And again, thanks for the input. I knew this was the place to come.

Much better! As a result, I can actually see you engaging some hip drive now, which means your glutes and hamstrings are much more involved. Having said that, I think you still need another inch or two of depth, so work on your flexibility using the stretches suggested by others (squat stretch, glute stretch, goblet squats) as well as the ones mentioned in the Youtube squat rx series.

 

[Danube]

Here - from "Starting Strength" author Mark Rippetoe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i60dzS84n8

 

[Deeko]

much better the second time, but you do need a little more depth. I can visibly see you shifting your weight forward. keep on your heels. try curling your toes up as you squat, that helped me when I was teaching myself to stay back.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Oh by the way, can anyone tell me how to rotate vids on youtube? Do I have to rotate them before uploading or does youtube have a feature that would allow me to do that? I figured this would be an alright place to ask since I'll be posting form checks as well

 

[Deeko]

Oh by the way, can anyone tell me how to rotate vids on youtube? Do I have to rotate them before uploading or does youtube have a feature that would allow me to do that? I figured this would be an alright place to ask since I'll be posting form checks as well

download windows Live Movie maker. its free, can do basic video editing like that. it also can upload directly to youtube.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

download windows Live Movie maker. its free, can do basic video editing like that. it also can upload directly to youtube.

Thanks, man. Just did that.

 

[brikis98]

Picasa can rotate and upload videos to Youtube as well. Decent picture manager too.

 

[coreyb]

looking good, just another few inches of depth and you're good.

 

[calvinbiss]

Wanted to update this thread one last time as I feel I learned something from it.

Here are the 4th and 5th sets of 5 at 160: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=113JD5XdeQQ

I am going to start at 185 and work my way back up. I can tell you that I am glad I filmed my form and brought it here to get it right. Still need to concentrate on slowing down and keeping the weight in my heels.

I will probably be posting a deadlift form video here soon. I know there are a lot of experts.