Square-Enix Realizes It Should Develop for Its Core Audience

[shortylickens]

That is sad to hear.

I dont mind grinding if its fun and lets me enjoy the game as opposed to distracting me from it.

Grinding to improve your Materia gets you new and or better abilities. Or more fun: New ways to combine and get cool results.

Grinding for job points was OK too.

I did NOT like grinding for faster chocobos, or for special nuts to breed them. That shit was annoying.

 

[cmdrdredd]

That is sad to hear.

It's just because it doesn't scale to your level the same way a game like Skyrim or Fallout or Diablo 3 does now.

I'll take an innocent honest child like character over a cookie cutter BillyBadAss one liner hair swooshing I'm too sexy for my gun-sword crap all day.

Tell me...what RPG has this type of character?

 

[Super56K]

I'm part of the problem being from the generation that started on FFVII, but then grew out of it. I remember my brothers and I used to cram on the couch and spend weeks doing a FFVII play through and with each subsequent release up to FFX I think. The last JRPG I tried was Ni No Kuni and even with my love of Studio Ghibli films I just couldn't hack more than six hours before I hit my limit. A beautiful game but GRINDGRINDGRIND. You can't move more than a few steps without triggering an encounter and then you hear that same victory music/dialogue again and again and again. The voice acting hurt it too because when it was there it was great, but it was sparingly utilized. . .often starting with voice acting then unceremoniously switching to scrolling text. Probably would've been better not having it at all.

What I'm getting at is I think traditional JRPG's truly are a dying genre considering how much the gaming landscape has evolved. Square-Enix erronously thought they could get me back into the fold by watering down their games. Not happening though. There's always going to be a niche for them, but I think a lot of the gaming community has moved on from traditional JRPG's - including gamers like me that mostly skip out on any kind of testosterone infused action game.

Executives at these companies don't care about the games themselves, but only care about somehow having a record quarter every quarter in perpetuity. That's hurting all games, not just JRPG's. So in that sense I hope Square-Enix is serious about developing for their core audience. There's nothing wrong with a game that won't break 500,000 units in its lifetime so long as its budgeted accordingly and expectations are correctly set. Nobody wins when the experience is homogenized because some suits think that if the game appeals to everyone then everyone will in turn buy it. That's not how it works.

 

[xantub]

I dont mind grinding if its fun and lets me enjoy the game as opposed to distracting me from it.

Grinding to improve your Materia gets you new and or better abilities. Or more fun: New ways to combine and get cool results.

Grinding for job points was OK too.

I did NOT like grinding for faster chocobos, or for special nuts to breed them. That shit was annoying.

I think a game's storyline should be entirely doable without grinding. You follow the story, do side quests, beat the enemies on the way, that's it. I don't mind if there are optional bosses where you have to grind, or if there are optional items you can craft or find via grinding, but you should be able to complete the game without grinding.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I'm part of the problem being from the generation that started on FFVII, but then grew out of it. I remember my brothers and I used to cram on the couch and spend weeks doing a FFVII play through and with each subsequent release up to FFX I think. The last JRPG I tried was Ni No Kuni and even with my love of Studio Ghibli films I just couldn't hack more than six hours before I hit my limit. A beautiful game but GRINDGRINDGRIND. You can't move more than a few steps without triggering an encounter and then you hear that same victory music/dialogue again and again and again. The voice acting hurt it too because when it was there it was great, but it was sparingly utilized. . .often starting with voice acting then unceremoniously switching to scrolling text. Probably would've been better not having it at all.

What I'm getting at is I think traditional JRPG's truly are a dying genre considering how much the gaming landscape has evolved. Square-Enix erronously thought they could get me back into the fold by watering down their games. Not happening though. There's always going to be a niche for them, but I think a lot of the gaming community has moved on from traditional JRPG's - including gamers like me that mostly skip out on any kind of testosterone infused action game.

Executives at these companies don't care about the games themselves, but only care about somehow having a record quarter every quarter in perpetuity. That's hurting all games, not just JRPG's. So in that sense I hope Square-Enix is serious about developing for their core audience. There's nothing wrong with a game that won't break 500,000 units in its lifetime so long as its budgeted accordingly and expectations are correctly set. Nobody wins when the experience is homogenized because some suits think that if the game appeals to everyone then everyone will in turn buy it. That's not how it works.

I agree and I think persona 4 was an example of a jrpg done correctly. You were not forced into encounters because you could usually either run away or get in the first hit for an advantage. Grinding was not necessary at all except to get the optional persona fusions and get the right levels for your persona to use certain move sets. You could go through the whole game without yoshitsune and trumpeter if you wanted. I liked that the focus of the game was on you interacting with the other characters and choosing your time wisely and allowing you to unlock more powerful persona and powering up your party rather than grinding to get a specific item for a power up.

I cannot wait to play persona 5.

 

[xantub]

I agree and I think persona 4 was an example of a jrpg done correctly. You were not forced into encounters because you could usually either run away or get in the first hit for an advantage. Grinding was not necessary at all except to get the optional persona fusions and get the right levels for your persona to use certain move sets. You could go through the whole game without yoshitsune and trumpeter if you wanted. I liked that the focus of the game was on you interacting with the other characters and choosing your time wisely and allowing you to unlock more powerful persona and powering up your party rather than grinding to get a specific item for a power up.

I cannot wait to play persona 5.

I agree.
Also, a lot of times 'walkthrough' FAQs are useless to me when I'm looking for tips on how to beat a boss. 99.9% of the times I'm like 20 levels below them, and I don't have 'Masamune the sword of ultimate destruction', so usually I read stuff like 'This boss is easy, just hit it 5 times for 10k damage each' but when I hit it with my party, I do like 1.5k damage. So I really have to fight strategically. Usually the problem worsens as the game goes on, until in the worst cases, I just stop near the final segment of the game and just watch the 'good ending' in youtube and imagine I did that.

 

[poofyhairguy]

I agree.
Also, a lot of times 'walkthrough' FAQs are useless to me when I'm looking for tips on how to beat a boss. 99.9% of the times I'm like 20 levels below them, and I don't have 'Masamune the sword of ultimate destruction', so usually I read stuff like 'This boss is easy, just hit it 5 times for 10k damage each' but when I hit it with my party, I do like 1.5k damage. So I really have to fight strategically. Usually the problem worsens as the game goes on, until in the worst cases, I just stop near the final segment of the game and just watch the 'good ending' in youtube and imagine I did that.

Sometimes the fun of a JRPG is when you miss that certain sword or grind and so you rely on a risky/complicated solution to try and power through. That is part of the charm of the genre to me.

First time I played Breath of Fire 1 I completely missed all the dragon upgrades because you have to fish in some random place to get it. So I had to beat end of late bosses with that early dragon all juiced on ProtnAs. And it was a blast! When I played it again and got all the upgrades the game almost got too easy.

It is like a puzzle with many solutions.

 

[shortylickens]

I think a game's storyline should be entirely doable without grinding. You follow the story, do side quests, beat the enemies on the way, that's it. I don't mind if there are optional bosses where you have to grind, or if there are optional items you can craft or find via grinding, but you should be able to complete the game without grinding.

well then you might wanna consider switching to PC gaming. Lots more titles where level and/or XP doesnt matter at all.

 

[Red Hawk]

I think a game's storyline should be entirely doable without grinding. You follow the story, do side quests, beat the enemies on the way, that's it. I don't mind if there are optional bosses where you have to grind, or if there are optional items you can craft or find via grinding, but you should be able to complete the game without grinding.

So basically, you don't want the game to be challenging and require effort.

 

[shortylickens]

So basically, you don't want the game to be challenging and require effort.

Grinding isnt necessarily challenging or an effort. It does kill time and it does make you wish your were doing something besides playing the game.

 

[Red Hawk]

Grinding isnt necessarily challenging or an effort. It does kill time and it does make you wish your were doing something besides playing the game.

The challenge is getting your party strong enough and tuned enough to take on a boss. I agree that excessive grinding is a bad thing, but setting things so you probably need just the right amount of grinding can be good. I don't want to just breeze through a game.

 

[xantub]

The challenge is getting your party strong enough and tuned enough to take on a boss. I agree that excessive grinding is a bad thing, but setting things so you probably need just the right amount of grinding can be good. I don't want to just breeze through a game.

To me that's the opposite of challenging. That's just lazy design. Challenging means, this is the fight, you're level 20, beat it with tactics. But in grinding jRPGs almost all challenges can be overcome by just grinding. See a boss? lose? ok no problem, let me kill 100 more lemmings while I sip some tea. Fight boss after that, you one-shot it.

It's not that I don't like levels or exp, I LOVE it, I like RPGs mostly because I can see my character/group grow in power over time, but not by running in circles around a save point fighting easy fights to get levels. A perfect example, Gladius (my favorite game of all time). You fight, you gain experience, but there are no random fights (mostly), you beat your arena battles with different enemies, different restrictions, etc. What members you chose to fight, positioning of troops and tactics during battles is a hell of a lot more important than 'being level 50'. There are many other jRPGs that you can win without grinding, I just wish they were the norm and not the exception.

 

[exar333]

Grinding isnt necessarily challenging or an effort. It does kill time and it does make you wish your were doing something besides playing the game.

Reading this comment out of context makes me chuckle...

 

[railven]

There are good companies releasing JRPGS. Atlus, XSEED, Level-5 etc. they just don't get the same hype as Final Fantasy, and honestly since the PS2 days I didn't like any game that bears the Final Fantasy name.



This too. Square needs to realize that not everyone wants to play a game with chibi characters, boys who look like 13 year old girls and save the world with a 10 foot long sword, and other such characters. The audience has grown up and gaming has evolved around them as well. It's ok to take a more realistic approach now. Heck, there's even companies who make JRPGs who are crafting complex stories that are a little more mature in tone. Persona for example. I might even say Dark Souls is an RPG. It just happens to be in a more western style but Square can learn from that I think.

I find those two statements a little odd. The majority of RPGs by said companies do just that - chibi characters (Persona Q/EO), or 13 year old boys looking like girls (Altirier series/Eternal Sonata), or save the world with 10 foot swords (Xenoblade) or what not.


On the subject of the title, I really don't know why people freak out. I haven't played FFXIII-3 yet, but XIII and XIII-2 weren't terrible games. FFXIV is pretty fun, Dissidia series was great for mobile, Crisis Core was good...

Beside FF Defenders, I really can't think of an FF game that cratered, but note I still haven't touched 13-3, so perhaps that might be the big stinker?

I'm currently playing through Bravely Default and up to chapter 3, it is by far an amazing game.

 

[railven]

I'll take an innocent honest child like character over a cookie cutter BillyBadAss one liner hair swooshing I'm too sexy for my gun-sword crap all day.

Tell me...what RPG has this type of character?

Honestly, Breath of Fire 3 comes to mind. The Ryu in that particular game doesn't come off as a bad ass from the start. He's lost, a child, confused, and trying to survive until he comes across Rei and Teepo (was it Teepo? The Magus clone haha.).

 

[poofyhairguy]

There are many other jRPGs that you can win without grinding, I just wish they were the norm and not the exception.

I agree. I think given that we get fewer jRPGs they need to be closer to the perfection that is Chrono Trigger on non-forced grinding.

Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light was the last great jRPG of that mold with the name Final Fantasy.

 

[Red Hawk]

I agree. I think given that we get fewer jRPGs they need to be closer to the perfection that is Chrono Trigger on non-forced grinding.

Can't argue with that. Chrono Trigger had perfectly paced character progression, and actually being able to see enemies and avoid them if you didn't want a fight was vastly superior to random battles.

 

[exdeath]

To me that's the opposite of challenging. That's just lazy design. Challenging means, this is the fight, you're level 20, beat it with tactics. But in grinding jRPGs almost all challenges can be overcome by just grinding. See a boss? lose? ok no problem, let me kill 100 more lemmings while I sip some tea. Fight boss after that, you one-shot it.

It's not that I don't like levels or exp, I LOVE it, I like RPGs mostly because I can see my character/group grow in power over time, but not by running in circles around a save point fighting easy fights to get levels. A perfect example, Gladius (my favorite game of all time). You fight, you gain experience, but there are no random fights (mostly), you beat your arena battles with different enemies, different restrictions, etc. What members you chose to fight, positioning of troops and tactics during battles is a hell of a lot more important than 'being level 50'. There are many other jRPGs that you can win without grinding, I just wish they were the norm and not the exception.

It is what you make of it.

First play of FF3/6 straight from the store I maxed everyone to 99, then a second time when I realized I messed up and had to plan stat growth with magicite for max stats

Last year I loaded it up on my Everdrive cart and competed a low level 100% game. Kefka @ level 6.

Though that's not even a challenge if you plan ahead. It's just a lot of reloading and backtracking knowing what enemy to confuse to give you what ability you don't have, same with rages, and knowing where exp is mandatory and how to divide and soak it before checkpoints.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I find those two statements a little odd. The majority of RPGs by said companies do just that - chibi characters (Persona Q/EO), or 13 year old boys looking like girls (Altirier series/Eternal Sonata), or save the world with 10 foot swords (Xenoblade) or what not.

It is simple. The companies I mention have games that are way above anything square has done in recent years outside of bravely default (which has serious grind issues in later chapters) but at the same time square can learn from other Japanese companies that make games that are tailored for a more mature audience with more complex storylines and character relationships, a more dark subject matter, and not relying on the same old chacter types as before.

 

[Red Hawk]

It is simple. The companies I mention have games that are way above anything square has done in recent years outside of bravely default (which has serious grind issues in later chapters) but at the same time square can learn from other Japanese companies that make games that are tailored for a more mature audience with more complex storylines and character relationships, a more dark subject matter, and not relying on the same old chacter types as before.

Going after a different, "more mature" audience is arguably exactly what has been dragging Square Enix down. Bravely Default reached success without trying to be "mature" and "dark". That's not the core of what Square Enix is, nor what JRPGs have to be.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Big spoilers in my post!!!

It is simple. The companies I mention have games that are way above anything square has done in recent years outside of bravely default (which has serious grind issues in later chapters) but at the same time square can learn from other Japanese companies that make games that are tailored for a more mature audience with more complex storylines and character relationships, a more dark subject matter, and not relying on the same old chacter types as before.

Honestly I think Square has DONE mature subject matters with dark and complex story lines in their past. Chrono dying and coming back, the Celes Jail cell scene in FF6, the cabaret dancers in FF4, the unreliable narrator of Cloud in FF7 (he was insane), etc.

Especially Xenogears, jeez you can't get more mature than that. You had a Soylent System producing food and medicine out of recycled humans. You have re-incarnation. You have a interplanetary invasion system that basically becomes a self-aware god. You have higher planes of existence. You have huge daddy issues. It is the whole enchilada.

Unless by "mature" you mean sticking to the western archetypes of heros being facsimiles of The Punisher or Neo with a potty mouth and all the women as walking breast implants.

No thank you in that case, the western dude bro games can keep the punishers, tits and people in space suits. To me that stuff, and shock-value games like the GTA series, is just as immature as anything else- it is meant to appeal to 13 year old boys. Mature to me is stories of love, family and lineage ala Final Fantasy IV: The After Years.

I also like how jRPGs have an anime style to them. One of the best parts of THE original JRPG Dragon Warrior 1 was the artwork by Akira Toriyama (man behind Dragon Ball). Or his work on Chrono Trigger. Anime and JRPGs go hand-in-hand to me.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Going after a different, "more mature" audience is arguably exactly what has been dragging Square Enix down. Bravely Default reached success without trying to be "mature" and "dark". That's not the core of what Square Enix is, nor what JRPGs have to be.

They've been approaching it incorrectly though. The story lines are still the same old "save the world" stuff. It's different than say Persona 4 that revolved around inner conflict and identity disorder. Dark Souls while not the traditional RPG and more of an action game also has darker themes. Both games are very well received and the story praised highly and despite what I think about Dark Souls, there is no doubt it is well received. Ever so much more than final fantasy of late.

Big spoilers in my post!!!



Honestly I think Square has DONE mature subject matters with dark and complex story lines in their past. Chrono dying and coming back, the Celes Jail cell scene in FF6, the cabaret dancers in FF4, the unreliable narrator of Cloud in FF7, etc.

Especially Xenogears, jeez you can't get more mature than that. You had a Soylent System producing food and medicine out of recycled humans. You have re-incarnation. You have a interplanetary invasion system that basically becomes a self-aware god. You have higher planes of existence. You have huge daddy issues. It is the whole enchilada.

Unless by "mature" you mean sticking to the western archetypes of heros being facsimiles of The Punisher or Neo with a potty mouth and all the women as walking breast implants.

No thank you in that case, the western dude bro games can keep the punishers, tits and people in space suits. To me that stuff, and shock-value games like the GTA series, is just as immature as anything else- it is meant to appeal to 13 year old boys. Mature to me is stories of love, family and lineage ala Final Fantasy IV: The After Years.

I also like how jRPGs have an anime style to them. One of the best parts of THE original JRPG Dragon Warrior 1 was the artwork by Akira Toriyama (man behind Dragon Ball). Or his work on Chrono Trigger. Anime and JRPGs go hand-in-hand to me.

No you are right but see those games were all excellent. The new ones? No and there is a distinct difference in the way the characters are drawn and the relationships between them.

 

[Red Hawk]

They've been approaching it incorrectly though. The story lines are still the same old "save the world" stuff. It's different than say Persona 4 that revolved around inner conflict and identity disorder. Dark Souls while not the traditional RPG and more of an action game also has darker themes. Both games are very well received and the story praised highly and despite what I think about Dark Souls, there is no doubt it is well received. Ever so much more than final fantasy of late.

You know what's also a "save the world" story? The Avengers. You might have heard of it, it's the third highest grossing movie worldwide, ever. The story is pretty straightforward, but viewers loved it and critics received it pretty well.

Whether we're talking about subjective quality or objective commercial success, the traditional "Save the world" and "hero's journey" stories are by no means something that drags the work down. Persona 4 revolved around inner conflict and identity disorder, sure. And for what it attempted to do, it was great (I haven't played it, but I'll take your word for it). That doesn't mean Square Enix needs to stop what they do best and go emulate that. Square Enix shouldn't be emulating anything. They can take in influences from other works where appropriate, but if you try to copy the dark, brooding action of a game like Dark Souls without knowing what you're doing, you get...well, you get Final Fantasy XIII-3.

 

[cmdrdredd]

You know what's also a "save the world" story? The Avengers. You might have heard of it, it's the third highest grossing movie worldwide, ever. The story is pretty straightforward, but viewers loved it and critics received it pretty well.

Whether we're talking about subjective quality or objective commercial success, the traditional "Save the world" and "hero's journey" stories are by no means something that drags the work down. Persona 4 revolved around inner conflict and identity disorder, sure. And for what it attempted to do, it was great (I haven't played it, but I'll take your word for it). That doesn't mean Square Enix needs to stop what they do best and go emulate that. Square Enix shouldn't be emulating anything. They can take in influences from other works where appropriate, but if you try to copy the dark, brooding action of a game like Dark Souls without knowing what you're doing, you get...well, you get Final Fantasy XIII-3.

And this is why Final Fantasy will continue to forever suck and critical acclaim won't come to it. They are out of touch with what RPG players actually want in a game. They are trying too hard to build the next billion seller instead of recognizing that the people who bought xenogears and praised it, the people who actually remember Chrono Trigger, and the people who have been long time players of final fantasy still play these games and the people who play Ninja Gaiden won't touch their Final Fantasy action game.

They need to go back to what worked but remove the cutesy stuff from it and build a story that is a little more thought out and less predictable using some of the new twists to the traditional gameplay they have used. The battle system in bravely default is great but some of the dialog makes me feel as if they have no idea how people actually talk in real life. Some of the dialog is so forced and borderline creepy. I just feel like SE has no idea how to make a game for the modern audience. They get one part right but always one glaring issue in their latest efforts sullies the experience a bit for me. Drags a great game down to good and a good game to nearly bad.

It seems to be a trend for some Japanese developers these days. They lost their way and cannot compete for gamer's attention against other development studios. They should just support their base and understand it's ok to not break every sales record.

 

[railven]

Big spoilers in my post!!!



Honestly I think Square has DONE mature subject matters with dark and complex story lines in their past. Chrono dying and coming back, the Celes Jail cell scene in FF6, the cabaret dancers in FF4, the unreliable narrator of Cloud in FF7 (he was insane), etc.

Especially Xenogears, jeez you can't get more mature than that. You had a Soylent System producing food and medicine out of recycled humans. You have re-incarnation. You have a interplanetary invasion system that basically becomes a self-aware god. You have higher planes of existence. You have huge daddy issues. It is the whole enchilada.

Unless by "mature" you mean sticking to the western archetypes of heros being facsimiles of The Punisher or Neo with a potty mouth and all the women as walking breast implants.

No thank you in that case, the western dude bro games can keep the punishers, tits and people in space suits. To me that stuff, and shock-value games like the GTA series, is just as immature as anything else- it is meant to appeal to 13 year old boys. Mature to me is stories of love, family and lineage ala Final Fantasy IV: The After Years.

I also like how jRPGs have an anime style to them. One of the best parts of THE original JRPG Dragon Warrior 1 was the artwork by Akira Toriyama (man behind Dragon Ball). Or his work on Chrono Trigger. Anime and JRPGs go hand-in-hand to me.

You know what's also a "save the world" story? The Avengers. You might have heard of it, it's the third highest grossing movie worldwide, ever. The story is pretty straightforward, but viewers loved it and critics received it pretty well.

Whether we're talking about subjective quality or objective commercial success, the traditional "Save the world" and "hero's journey" stories are by no means something that drags the work down. Persona 4 revolved around inner conflict and identity disorder, sure. And for what it attempted to do, it was great (I haven't played it, but I'll take your word for it). That doesn't mean Square Enix needs to stop what they do best and go emulate that. Square Enix shouldn't be emulating anything. They can take in influences from other works where appropriate, but if you try to copy the dark, brooding action of a game like Dark Souls without knowing what you're doing, you get...well, you get Final Fantasy XIII-3.

Well said.

Considering a lot of the jRPGs by other companies still follow the tried cliche story arches/character setups/and even combat systems, I really don't understand how people can argue FF-is straying away from it's roots. If they imply fantasy by the era of a more Tolkien-ish or whatever setting, sure, I'll give them that, but so far the games still hold up.

They will never replace the classics since like most crap from our childhood, it has sentimental places because it was "our first time". I guess being cynical/jaded after killing the same monsters for the last 20+ years is to be expected.