Square-Enix Realizes It Should Develop for Its Core Audience

[exar333]

The problem is that WE are a dying breed my friend. Most people are not looking for a strategic, or worse *gasp* a turn based, game for their gaming fix these days.

Maybe.

I wish Square would morph into a company like Paradox (for PCs) who specialize in fantastic strategic titles. They make a good living doing it, and I think Square could do the same. I know Bravely Default is brought up a lot as a succes example, but I truly think there is a big market for well-designed games. These turn-based gams are also great for adapting to other platforms like mobile (3DS), tablet, and so forth. I hope they don't die.

 

[Aikouka]

It's hard not to look at Ubisoft's upcoming Child of Light, and not think that Square-Enix could probably learn something from them. Ubisoft started this whole small team, small risk development with FarCry 3: Blood Dragon, and they've currently got two titles (including Child of Light) in the works. What really makes me think of Square with Child of Light is that the members of the team working on the game specifically mention the older Final Fantasy games as some of their inspiration.

Bravely Default is sort of along the same line given the simpler art style (compared to say Lightning Returns), but it's still more of a premium title.

 

[exar333]

It's hard not to look at Ubisoft's upcoming Child of Light, and not think that Square-Enix could probably learn something from them. Ubisoft started this whole small team, small risk development with FarCry 3: Blood Dragon, and they've currently got two titles (including Child of Light) in the works. What really makes me think of Square with Child of Light is that the members of the team working on the game specifically mention the older Final Fantasy games as some of their inspiration.

Bravely Default is sort of along the same line given the simpler art style (compared to say Lightning Returns), but it's still more of a premium title.

Great point. That game looks awesome!

If you look back on Square days for PS1 (for example) you can see some great hits and misses alike. I liked the experimentation and lower-budget of some of them, not every game needs to be a huge 'event'. Just focus on good games, and take some chances while still offering games for the more long-term, core fans.

 

[xantub]

It's hard not to look at Ubisoft's upcoming Child of Light, and not think that Square-Enix could probably learn something from them. Ubisoft started this whole small team, small risk development with FarCry 3: Blood Dragon, and they've currently got two titles (including Child of Light) in the works. What really makes me think of Square with Child of Light is that the members of the team working on the game specifically mention the older Final Fantasy games as some of their inspiration.

Bravely Default is sort of along the same line given the simpler art style (compared to say Lightning Returns), but it's still more of a premium title.

I just wish they ported all those Vita/3DS RPGs to the PS3 (or PS4). It has to be an easy thing to do specially for Vita->PS3.

 

[exar333]

I just wish they ported all those Vita/3DS RPGs to the PS3 (or PS4). It has to be an easy thing to do specially for Vita->PS3.

Agree. Especially considering 90% of all 'good' Vita games are ports anyways from other systems.

 

[cmdrdredd]

It's hard not to look at Ubisoft's upcoming Child of Light, and not think that Square-Enix could probably learn something from them. Ubisoft started this whole small team, small risk development with FarCry 3: Blood Dragon, and they've currently got two titles (including Child of Light) in the works. What really makes me think of Square with Child of Light is that the members of the team working on the game specifically mention the older Final Fantasy games as some of their inspiration.

Bravely Default is sort of along the same line given the simpler art style (compared to say Lightning Returns), but it's still more of a premium title.

Oh wow Child of Light uses the engine from Rayman Legends? That's pretty nice...didn't know that. Rayman has some great artwork IMO and some of that can be translated to this game? Cool

 

[exar333]

Oh wow Child of Light uses the engine from Rayman Legends? That's pretty nice...didn't know that. Rayman has some great artwork IMO and some of that can be translated to this game? Cool

It looks great. I checked some gameplay videos on Youyube and it looks really fun (and accessible). This could be a fun game for RPG veterans and also new to the genre.

 

[exdeath]

http://www.gamrreview.com/article/9...-vow-to-return-to-making-games-for-core-fans/

 

[Aikouka]

http://www.gamrreview.com/article/9...-vow-to-return-to-making-games-for-core-fans/

It’s important to remember, of course, that one of the reasons for Square-Enix’s move to bring in a wider audience was because Japanese RPGs were going through a rough time, and they weren’t selling as well as the company needed them to.

This doesn't seem correct. Reading Final Fantasy X's and Final Fantasy XII's Wikipedia page shows that both games sold pretty well.

 

[exdeath]

Well part of Square's problem was the FF7 fluke.

FF7 was like their Wii, their one hit mainstream wonder, for reasons unknown to me.

From that point on they got cocky and just EXPECTED anything they graced their name with would automatically sell millions like they were ENTITLED to it. And so budgets exploded.

Nope.

 

[ImpulsE69]

This doesn't seem correct. Reading Final Fantasy X's and Final Fantasy XII's Wikipedia page shows that both games sold pretty well.

It makes perfect sense if you realize no amount of money is enough money for companies and stockholders these days. No one is happy with just making a profit. It has to be HUGE profit.

The industry is killing companies. The smaller private companies are doing just fine.

 

[cmdrdredd]

It makes perfect sense if you realize no amount of money is enough money for companies and stockholders these days. No one is happy with just making a profit. It has to be HUGE profit.

The industry is killing companies. The smaller private companies are doing just fine.

Square is kind of strange too. Tomb Raider sold 3.4million copies in the first month of release which is quite a lot by many standards and they called it something of a failure because they had the unrealistic expectation of 6million. They need to understand that a game is not unsuccessful because they set a goal that was highly unlikely to be reached.

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2013/05/sq...wants-to-maximise-profits-during-development/

 

[shortylickens]

Core Audience?

You mean the japanese teen boys who like annoying emo heroes and sluts in school girl outfits?

 

[Aikouka]

Square is kind of strange too. Tomb Raider sold 3.4million copies in the first month of release which is quite a lot by many standards and they called it something of a failure because they had the unrealistic expectation of 6million. They need to understand that a game is not unsuccessful because they set a goal that was highly unlikely to be reached.

One thing I've been curious about in regard to Square-Enix's number is... how are they dispersed among all types of sales. The biggest reason why I bring this up is AMD's Never Settle promotions. Square-Enix has had a huge presence in those promotions as Sleeping Dogs, Hitman: Absolution and Tomb Raider were all available through it. So, does the 3.4 million count however many license keys AMD had to buy to supply their promotion? Those keys are most likely at a significantly lower rate than what we expect ($60 per game), and if so, are we misjudging Square's disappointment?

Don't get me wrong, because I think Square is being a bit crazy too, but maybe there's something more to it.

Well part of Square's problem was the FF7 fluke.

FF7 was like their Wii, their one hit mainstream wonder, for reasons unknown to me.

Final Fantasy VII may have a pretty bland story that's full of more anime tropes than anyone would care to admit, but it's not a downright awful game. I think a lot of its success is due to it being the first "3D" Final Fantasy, and the release on a completely different platform. Who was a fan of Final Fantasy VI and did not jump ship from Nintendo to Sony after SquareSoft changed companies? I know I did! I remember being so disappointed after seeing all the screenshots in Nintendo Power for the Ultra 64's Final Fantasy game.

I also wonder if Cloud worked for a lot of people because he was similar in Crono in regard to his silent demeanor. When characters aren't simply played out in front of you, you are given a chance to sort of become that character. It's especially helpful if you can make decisions in the game regardless of whether they have game-changing effects. I mean... who didn't love going on a date with Barrett?

It makes perfect sense if you realize no amount of money is enough money for companies and stockholders these days. No one is happy with just making a profit. It has to be HUGE profit.

The industry is killing companies. The smaller private companies are doing just fine.

Heh... I actually got into a discussion about this with my boss (used to own his own company) the other day. I've noticed that a lot too, and it's usually quite baffling. Some analysts predict that a company will make x dollars, but it ends up making about 95% of that. Their stock price ends up taking a hit so quickly that it almost seems way too hasty. For example, Intel got hit a year or two ago after their "weak" numbers (note, we're talking about a few hundred million off their billions in revenue ). What investors need to know is (1) if the company realizes why their profits may not be as strong (2) and what they're going to do to adjust. Going back to Intel, they put a ton of effort into their low-power mobile line in an effort to stem the Arm tide.

However, I don't know if it's fair to just cast any business in that light. The Japanese are very different than us in regard to their culture. Look at when Iwata and the rest of the Nintendo execs took a pay cut due to their poor financial results. You would never see that here. I get the feeling that the Japanese certainly want to see a business be successful (i.e. not lose money like Nintendo is right now), but I don't know if they're nearly as obsessive over a constant rise in profits like we are in America.

EDIT:

Core Audience?

You mean the japanese teen boys who like annoying emo heroes and sluts in school girl outfits?

Final Fantasy has been lacking in a bit of this lately.

 

[exdeath]

Core Audience?

You mean the japanese teen boys who like annoying emo heroes and sluts in school girl outfits?

I'm looking at FF4 and FF6, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Xenogears, etc, the games that the "core audience" holds dearly on a platinum pedestal, and not seeing any of those things.

The things you bring up are the other part of the JRPG equation: renowned JRPG companies losing their direction.

 

[mmntech]

I assume JRPGs still sell pretty well in Japan. Pokemon is the only game that I can think of though that still sells consistently well globally though. Final Fantasy still does okay though.

A lot of the games JRPG fans bring up as being the pinnacle of titles all came about in the 90s before western style role playing games really caught on. Part of it is a game mechanics thing I think. WRPGs have more emphasis on character customization, and less emphasis on grinding. They also focus on more fluid real-time combat as opposed to turn based. I think that style just appeals to a much broader audience.

Story wise, I think a lot of recent JRPGs have been a bit too off the wall for global audiences. Which is why Final Fantasy and Pokemon still do well. They deal with more universal themes that are easier for non-Japanese to grasp.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I assume JRPGs still sell pretty well in Japan. Pokemon is the only game that I can think of though that still sells consistently well globally though. Final Fantasy still does okay though.

A lot of the games JRPG fans bring up as being the pinnacle of titles all came about in the 90s before western style role playing games really caught on. Part of it is a game mechanics thing I think. WRPGs have more emphasis on character customization, and less emphasis on grinding. They also focus on more fluid real-time combat as opposed to turn based. I think that style just appeals to a much broader audience.

Story wise, I think a lot of recent JRPGs have been a bit too off the wall for global audiences. Which is why Final Fantasy and Pokemon still do well. They deal with more universal themes that are easier for non-Japanese to grasp.

True, I personally know more people who enjoy Skyrim and Fallout than play JRPGs. One of the bigger complaints I've heard from them about JRPGs is that they have to fight the same monsters over and over to level up enough to beat the boss and eventually get to the point where they are overleveled and beat everything where in a western style RPG they can play without worrying so much about levels and focus on skill sets for their character.

One of the other complaints is about the style of character. Most of the western RPGs allow you to create your own character's look and the enemies and NPCs are more realistic looking. Child like characters and stuff isn't appealing for them.

 

[mmntech]

There's a philosophy in a lot of Japanese games where you're rewarded for work. This risks your game becoming repetitive in the worst possible way. When it ceases being fun and just turns into work. The worst use of this I've seen is in the Disgaea series. While I do like the games, the levelling mechanic is horribly tedious. Characters only gain EXP for defeating an enemy. Which is a slog compared to even other JRPGs, where every party member who participated in the battle gains experience. Plus when you finally unlock a new character class, all newly created characters start at level 1. Meaning you have to spend hours more grinding to get them up to the same level as the rest of your party.

I think Pokemon works though for a few reasons. It encourages customization and exploration like western RPGs while at the same time keeping the core gameplay mechanics as traditional JRPGs. You can create any party you want that suits your play style. Yet at the same time it keeps mixing stuff up. My rock solid first gen team of grass, fire, water, electric, ice, psychic doesn't work in subsequent games. So it keeps making you reevaluate your tactics. Grinding is still an issue but not as big of one as other games.

I think JRPGs today work better on a handled platform as well rather than traditional consoles. Their gameplay lends well to pick up and play.

 

[xantub]

The first thing I google when a new jRPG game comes out (and I love them except for this fact) is '<name of game> grind'. Basically I want to know if grinding is necessary to play the game or optional. Some games have optional bosses or sections, outside the games storyline, that you have to grind to beat, but you can beat the normal game without grinding. I'm ok with those. But others (like the aforementioned Disgaea series) have grinding as the focus. I stay the hell away from those.

 

[poofyhairguy]

I think most modern JRPGs let you get through the main storyline without grinding. That has been the case since the SNES era. It will be more challenging without grinding, but the last game I remember where you HAD TO grind to beat it was Final Fantasy 1.

Honestly though, when I think of my favorite times with JRPGs it has been grinding. Just grinding for grinding's sake isn't that fun, but it is a blast when you grind some enemy that:

1. You shouldn't have access to that early in the game and/or

2. Gets beat with some easy trick that you normally wouldn't think about (and otherwise beating that enemy at that point would be impossible) and/or

3. Gives you some sort of random drop that turns you into a badass

From Final Fantasy 1's Peninsula of Power, to Final Fantasy 5's Shield Dragon, to Chrono Trigger's Nu, there is a history of this kind of fun grinding in RPG series. Heck my favorite part of SOTN was grinding Schmoos to get the Crissaegrim! That sword made the end fight easier than the first fight.

I love this kind of grinding because when you take your superpowered bad-ass self and whoop the rest of the game it gives a sense of accomplishment. The more your grind breaks the difficulty of the game, the better- as long as the break isn't something you run across just playing the game (so no MM2 metal blade-style breaks).

That is what is so great about JRPGs in general. For people like me with poor hand-eye coordination I could NEVER beat a Ninja Gaiden, or perfectly shoot all the enemies with no misses in some twitch FPS level. But with a JRPG I can still feel like a gaming badass without any natural reaction skills once I find I can grind this one enemy, mix that weapon and armor, or cast this order of spells and a previously unbeatable boss turns into a joke.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Bravely Default has a lot of grinding and at a certain point it gets ridiculous as you fight over and over repeatedly. You can turn down or off the random battle frequency but then you aren't leveling enough at times.

 

[xantub]

Bravely Default has a lot of grinding and at a certain point it gets ridiculous as you fight over and over repeatedly. You can turn down or off the random battle frequency but then you aren't leveling enough at times.

That's sad news to me. I was looking forward to playing BD but if grinding is needed, I'm out.

When I play jRPGs I go through the storyline only. I only fight enemies that obstruct my path, but I don't go running around in circles to fight over and over and over only to be high level.

 

[cmdrdredd]

That's sad news to me. I was looking forward to playing BD but if grinding is needed, I'm out.

When I play jRPGs I go through the storyline only. I only fight enemies that obstruct my path, but I don't go running around in circles to fight over and over and over only to be high level.

For some bosses you have to grind to get to the proper level to win. After chapter 6 it gets a little long in the tooth, but it's not a bad game.

 

[poofyhairguy]

For some bosses you have to grind to get to the proper level to win.

That is sad to hear.

 

[exdeath]

I'll take an innocent honest child like character over a cookie cutter BillyBadAss one liner hair swooshing I'm too sexy for my gun-sword crap all day.