"Spreading democracy, by any means necessary"

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: FoBoT
ok, on behalf of america, the USA is just as evil as everybody else

we had slavery until 1860's
we wiped out american indians in huge numbers and stole their land
we dropped two nuclear weapons on japan and killed tens of thousands of civilians

we are really evil too

----

i still think we need to defend our country from foreign aggressors

Agreed, but when we champion ourselves as the sole protector of democracy and justice throughout the world, people should know that that is a load of crap; looking at our past record just about anyone in the world can see that we have not always (or even often) fulfilled the image we set for ourselves as righteous protectors of disenfranchised and oppressed peoples of the world; in fact, we have often been the reason for that disenfranchisement and oppression.

So are you saying that the United States should enter into some period of self-flaggelation until it is deemed by any person that might have been disenfranchised, oppressed, or offended that we have punished ourselves enough?

Look, is the USA perfect? NO. Name one country that is. Do we have high ideals that we don't always meet? Yes, but at least we strive for those ideals.

I'm not sure exactly what the point of your original post is other than to say the US has done something bad in the past.

 

[konichiwa]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: FoBoT
ok, on behalf of america, the USA is just as evil as everybody else

we had slavery until 1860's
we wiped out american indians in huge numbers and stole their land
we dropped two nuclear weapons on japan and killed tens of thousands of civilians

we are really evil too

----

i still think we need to defend our country from foreign aggressors

Agreed, but when we champion ourselves as the sole protector of democracy and justice throughout the world, people should know that that is a load of crap; looking at our past record just about anyone in the world can see that we have not always (or even often) fulfilled the image we set for ourselves as righteous protectors of disenfranchised and oppressed peoples of the world; in fact, we have often been the reason for that disenfranchisement and oppression.

So are you saying that the United States should enter into some period of self-flaggelation until it is deemed by any person that might have been disenfranchised, oppressed, or offended that we have punished ourselves enough?

No, what I am saying is that the US running around the world and proclaiming that it is freeing the people of Iraq, Iraq is a obstacle to worldwide democracy, the US is freeing the middle east to engage in democracy, and frankly that just doesn't coincide with our history. It's no surprise that ALL MODERN COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD disagree and are skeptical of this war, because they know just how bad we (agreed, as well as most other nations) have acted towards certain peoples of the world over the years.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: FoBoT
ok, on behalf of america, the USA is just as evil as everybody else

we had slavery until 1860's
we wiped out american indians in huge numbers and stole their land
we dropped two nuclear weapons on japan and killed tens of thousands of civilians

we are really evil too

----

i still think we need to defend our country from foreign aggressors

Agreed, but when we champion ourselves as the sole protector of democracy and justice throughout the world, people should know that that is a load of crap; looking at our past record just about anyone in the world can see that we have not always (or even often) fulfilled the image we set for ourselves as righteous protectors of disenfranchised and oppressed peoples of the world; in fact, we have often been the reason for that disenfranchisement and oppression.

So are you saying that the United States should enter into some period of self-flaggelation until it is deemed by any person that might have been disenfranchised, oppressed, or offended that we have punished ourselves enough?

No, what I am saying is that the US running around the world and proclaiming that it is freeing the people of Iraq, Iraq is a obstacle to worldwide democracy, the US is freeing the middle east to engage in democracy, and frankly that just doesn't coincide with our history. It's no surprise that ALL MODERN COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD disagree and are skeptical of this war, because they know just how bad we (agreed, as well as most other nations) have acted towards certain peoples of the world over the years.

<cough>There is currently a coalition of 30+ countries supporting the United States so please do not say "ALL MODERN COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD". You are being disingenious when you do so.

The US is going out of its way to avoid civilian casualties and to provide timely aid to the people of Iraq. US forces are still in Afghanistan along with the UN to help the newly forming gov't and the people. Yes, America has made mistakes in the past. Yes, some mistakes may be made in the future. But at least we are out there trying to help.

 

[smartt]

Americans, and others, believe that people are born with a fundamental right to be free and to be part of a representative government. We will enforce the ability to practice that right wherever necessary. If you don't believe in that freedom than one can only assume you are brainwashed or that you are prisoner of fear in someone else's regime. Some may say it seems ironic to force someone to be free, but no matter what you are told everyone wants to be free. Elizabeth Smart wanted to be free, but she had been brainwashed to fear her captors.

I so often hear that America is just trying to push theeir beliefs on other countries. I'll be the first to tell you that is a 100% correct. With God willing, everyone in the world will be free one day!

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

No, what I am saying is that the US running around the world and proclaiming that it is freeing the people of Iraq, Iraq is a obstacle to worldwide democracy, the US is freeing the middle east to engage in democracy, and frankly that just doesn't coincide with our history.

Well the first post said Britain displaced these people but I guess we can take the rap for that 40 year old "offense" such as it is. If that's the worse that you can dig up I guess we will survive...especially when juxtaposed with Hussein dropping live people into industrial plastic shredders.

I'm sure there are alot of terrible things we've done but on balance, I will put our record up against anyone. As bad as it pains you, I still think of us as one of the good guys.

 

[etech]

konichiwa

No, what I am saying is that the US running around the world and proclaiming that it is freeing the people of Iraq, Iraq is a obstacle to worldwide democracy, the US is freeing the middle east to engage in democracy, and frankly that just doesn't coincide with our history. It's no surprise that ALL MODERN COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD disagree and are skeptical of this war, because they know just how bad we (agreed, as well as most other nations) have acted towards certain peoples of the world over the years.

So your argument is - Since some things have not worked out for the best in the past the US or any other nation should now not do anything but become isolationists.

Got it, been there, done that, doesn't work.

 

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: FoBoT
ok, on behalf of america, the USA is just as evil as everybody else

we had slavery until 1860's
we wiped out american indians in huge numbers and stole their land
we dropped two nuclear weapons on japan and killed tens of thousands of civilians

we are really evil too

----

i still think we need to defend our country from foreign aggressors

Agreed, but when we champion ourselves as the sole protector of democracy and justice throughout the world, people should know that that is a load of crap; looking at our past record just about anyone in the world can see that we have not always (or even often) fulfilled the image we set for ourselves as righteous protectors of disenfranchised and oppressed peoples of the world; in fact, we have often been the reason for that disenfranchisement and oppression.

so because we aren't perfect, we can't take actions to defend ourselves?

i agree that "iraqi freedom" is a stretch , but projecting power does make sense to me. showing weakness to your enemies is always a mistake.

 

[joohang]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: rudder
I can go back in history and find a case where virtually every country has done something wrong. And that was 40 yers ago. Do some research, it was a crazy time where two nuclear superpowers had the attitude that they would be tangling with each other in the near future.

Thats the past. The future affords us the opportunity to not make those same mistakes.

You see, that's exactly the kind of attitude people around the world despise. You don't even sound much sorry for those people harmed from American atrocities and simply dismiss it as a result of tense international politics, or because everybody at some point in history did it.


Edit: grammar

A funny thing about history, you can't really change it now can you. I don't recall you asking about my feelings on the matter. I guess I should still be pissed at the British who killed all of those colonists when they wanted to start their own country in 1775.

I think I read your post out of context. Sorry about that.

I am not sure about going as far back as 1775. I just want to see more Americans recognize that their nation did do a lot cruel stuff (i.e. in Panama), and think more critically to propagandic statements like "Iraqi freedom."

Like you said, history cannot be changed. You also said that it is important to not repeat it. Unfortunately, I don't get the impression that a lot of Americans feel that way, nor are they even aware much about the past.

Anybody mentions anything negative about America's past, and they get bashed or mocked. This thread (especially the first few posts) is one example.

 

[joohang]

Originally posted by: smartt
Americans, and others, believe that people are born with a fundamental right to be free and to be part of a representative government. We will enforce the ability to practice that right wherever necessary. If you don't believe in that freedom than one can only assume you are brainwashed or that you are prisoner of fear in someone else's regime. Some may say it seems ironic to force someone to be free, but no matter what you are told everyone wants to be free. Elizabeth Smart wanted to be free, but she had been brainwashed to fear her captors.

I so often hear that America is just trying to push theeir beliefs on other countries. I'll be the first to tell you that is a 100% correct. With God willing, everyone in the world will be free one day!

I am not sure. Maybe the surviving Iraqis will enjoy freedom (if they get it) about 30 years from now. If I were one of them in Baghdad, though, I am not sure if I'd choose Saddam or live in fear of missile bombardment.

Although more than 50 years apart and the whole nature of the war is very different, the general course of the Iraqi conflict reminds me a bit about the Korean War. I wonder if the new Iraq will go through a path similar to that of South Korea in the 50s, 60s and the 70s.

 

[sandorski]

Someone once said, "Past performance, doesn't indicate future returns"(something like that("indicate" might be "gaurantee")).

This is true. However, some would like us to ignore the past claiming "we've changed". It is always nice to think of "us(we) in the present" as having learned from past mistakes and of having superior morals, but history shows the repition of errors by the "morally upright" ad nauseum. To accept our current "moral values" as being different is a grand assumption of Faith. History will judge us not by our intentions, but by our actions and the result of those actions.

 

[etech]

Although more than 50 years apart and the whole nature of the war is very different, the general course of the Iraqi conflict reminds me a bit about the Korean War. I wonder if the new Iraq will go through a path similar to that of South Korea in the 50s, 60s and the 70s.

Interesting point. I wonder if you took a poll of S. Koreans if they would rather the US had not fought and they were living as the N. Koreans are now.

 

[joohang]

Originally posted by: etech

Although more than 50 years apart and the whole nature of the war is very different, the general course of the Iraqi conflict reminds me a bit about the Korean War. I wonder if the new Iraq will go through a path similar to that of South Korea in the 50s, 60s and the 70s.

Interesting point. I wonder if you took a poll of S. Koreans if they would rather the US had not fought and they were living as the N. Koreans are now.

With strong anti-American sentiments nowadays (at least that's the impression I got), I don't know if I can trust such poll.

(This paragraph has little to do with your post, but may give some relevant picture.)
The Korean War had little to do with the Koreans themselves. It was one of the consequences of the initial Cold War confrontation. Technically, the North Koreans did launch an invasion, but there were little conflicts here and there for months before the official launch of the conflict. They were also quite well-aware of the military build-up in the north, and the South Korean military were absolutely pathetic. I wrote a paper on this topic a few years ago, and I swear that the figures on the South Korean military were unbelievably weak. It almost looked as though the South Korean government and the Americans pretty much invited the North Koreans to invade. In fact, Kim Il-sung planned an invasion to last less than 10 days and take control of the entire peninsula.

Enough about the war. I am more interested about whether the new "free" Iraqi regime will walk the path similar to what the South Koreans did. It took South Korea more than 35 years to hold a true, "free" presidential election. For decades, many presidents ruled through authoritarian means and maintained very close ties with America. They were pretty much a puppet. Then, for a couple of decades after, South Korea was ruled by military governments. One of them is known for rapid economic boost by opening up trade with Japan and controlling the bank so that money flows to those industries that would benefit the state. Another is infamous for the massacre at Kwangju in 1980, which is often portrayed Tiananmen of South Korea.

I am oversimplifying decades of modern Korean history here, but it is pretty clear that the road to freedom and establishment of a civil society is very bumpy. Amazingly, South Korea is an example of a relatively smooth case.

I'd just appreciate if more people take the whole notion of "freedom of the Iraqis" with a grain of salt. This war is mainly for America's own interests. And chances are, there will be a dictator or a government under tight American control. There will probably be demonstrations and bloodshed as people demand more freedom. Hopefully, Iraq will establish a civil society in a relatively smooth manner. I just hope that there won't be another Saddam Hussein.

 

[Morph]

Originally posted by: Queasy

<cough>There is currently a coalition of 30+ countries supporting the United States so please do not say "ALL MODERN COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD". You are being disingenious when you do so.

But those countries that are part of the coalition are not necessarily there because the people of that country agree with the war effort. The leaders make these decisions, mostly for political reasons. For example take our biggest partner, the UK. Look at the polls in the UK and you will see that the majority of its citizens are against this war. I think you'll find it's the same case for most of those 30+ countries. So when you talk about "countries" being for or against something, are you talking about the leader who gets to make the decision (regardless of what those who elected him think) or are you talking about the opinion of the majority of people in that country?

 

[HappyGamer2]

Thread Title: What Arabs are saying ...
I already gave my comments on the foolish dream of turning Iraq into a democracy in the above threadhttp://http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=52&threadid=1011147

 

[konichiwa]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: FoBoT
ok, on behalf of america, the USA is just as evil as everybody else

we had slavery until 1860's
we wiped out american indians in huge numbers and stole their land
we dropped two nuclear weapons on japan and killed tens of thousands of civilians

we are really evil too

----

i still think we need to defend our country from foreign aggressors

Agreed, but when we champion ourselves as the sole protector of democracy and justice throughout the world, people should know that that is a load of crap; looking at our past record just about anyone in the world can see that we have not always (or even often) fulfilled the image we set for ourselves as righteous protectors of disenfranchised and oppressed peoples of the world; in fact, we have often been the reason for that disenfranchisement and oppression.

So are you saying that the United States should enter into some period of self-flaggelation until it is deemed by any person that might have been disenfranchised, oppressed, or offended that we have punished ourselves enough?

No, what I am saying is that the US running around the world and proclaiming that it is freeing the people of Iraq, Iraq is a obstacle to worldwide democracy, the US is freeing the middle east to engage in democracy, and frankly that just doesn't coincide with our history. It's no surprise that ALL MODERN COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD disagree and are skeptical of this war, because they know just how bad we (agreed, as well as most other nations) have acted towards certain peoples of the world over the years.

<cough>There is currently a coalition of 30+ countries supporting the United States so please do not say "ALL MODERN COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD". You are being disingenious when you do so.

The US is going out of its way to avoid civilian casualties and to provide timely aid to the people of Iraq. US forces are still in Afghanistan along with the UN to help the newly forming gov't and the people. Yes, America has made mistakes in the past. Yes, some mistakes may be made in the future. But at least we are out there trying to help.

"coalition of the willing"

I believe the number of countries stands somewhere in the forties currently, with less than ten (IIRC, and unless it's changed) actually offering troops or "direct" military support (Britain, Australia, Poland are the only countries actually offering fighting tropps. Some scattered others are offering "experts" and "noncombatants" as well as those who are in it for the "moral support"). Not to mention some of the stunningly powerful countries we say are with us...

such as...

Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, South Korea, Spain, Turkey, the United Kingdom and Uzbekistan.

Azerbaijan? El Salvador? Eritrea? Compared with a coalition of 20+ countries who actually gave us troops as well as "moral support" in Gulf war I

 

[Alistar7]

I thought the coaltion number was up to 45 now....


Notice how there is no question as to the motives of the major dissenting countires. No talk of the lucrative oil deals made with Saddam that disappear if he is gone, billions given for support, it's a shame they sold out their moral base and won't even get the $$$$ they were promised, but at least the French and Russians continued giving that full support as promised until the end. France hasn't even waited for the killing to stop before trying to get in position to make some money of the rebuilding, sorry, you made your deals with Saddam and supported him to the end. You took no risk and will not profit from the Iraqi people you sold out in the UN by making deals with their "leader".
If Saddam was smart he would have taken exile in France with all the other deposed dictactors and pedophiles.

26 wars have been started since the inception of the UN, only on 3 occasions was the UN even asked, all 3 times it was the US. The one country who needs no help, how ironic.