Spin Off: AT's Testing Methods & Uber Mode

[tential]

Oh I don't know. I just got done reading a controversy at tomshardware that was picked up by probably 30 other web news outlets that is based directly on the terrible cooler on the 290 series. And then, I see noise mentioned as a negative in 100% of every web review of the 290 series. And then practically every PC enthusiast forum has pages upon pages of people complaining about the noise and how they wouldn't consider a 290 series card because of noise. Says who? Indeed. Was all of this entirely, 100% preventable? Yes, it could have been prevented - No throttling, no noise complaints, no user experience complaints, no conspiracy theories about reviews at AT.. Preventable. Yes, yes it was. But wasn't.

But, let's forget all that. AMD is a victim here, right? I mean AMD didn't need to prevent all of this with a better design.

Actually surprised MORE people haven't said anything about this.

AMD just finds many ways to shoot itself in the foot.

Either way though, this is only part one of the review phase. Real fun comes in when the multiple custom boards get reviewed.

 

[raghu78]

the noise factor upto 55% fan speed is FUD. at uber speed its not loud that it disturbs the user especially from a closed case. scott from techreport and brent from hardocp already confirmed that. after 65% fan speed noise is definitely loud. the point is Nvidia is not going to sell a GTX 780 for USD 400 and AMD is letting the user have that performance for hundred bucks less. if the noise is a big issue slap a custom cooler for 50 bucks and enjoy lower noise than ref GTX 780 and on par with custom GTX 780 for 50 - 100 bucks less. :thumbsup:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1437634/installation-guide-tips-of-rev-2-icy-vision-on-r9-290x

 

[krumme]

Anyone remember when there was a limited edition extreme oc gtx 460ee was tested against the new reference amd cards? I thought that was curious just as the thought of testing a card in quiet mode only is quite curious.

Yes and it was a sad day - but i think it have been better the last years.

It looks like AT bad relationship to AMD made Ryan follow the very agressive NV reviewer guides to large dregree.

I dont question the competence of Ryan, and the intention to make objective reviews. I perfectly follow his consern for noise, but the 290 rant - because of a 5.5dB difference to eg. 780ti is so out of line, and so is his sli vs cf remarks. Its just way off.

Ryan reviews keeps to be unintentional biased against AMD for some reason, but i dont blame him personally for that. Please notice that. From my perspective it will always be AMD responsibility what happens here as its their profit its about. Its naive to think this is about a person.

We have a situation where we dont pay for the articles. We have a situation where there can be no money between the review sites and eg. nv/amd. But in such relations there is always traded something when money is not involved. Information for us readers, support and knowledge for the staff from eg. nv is traded for the ability to follow review guides. NV gives all that and in return they get something else.

Thats how business works. Its a damn difficult balance as reviewer to keep that. When the relationship goes bad its naive it does not affect the reviews and the attitude as eg. seen here:
http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/4..._they_treat_gpu_partners_and_media/index.html

Ryan have said himself that there have been a bad relationsship from AMD to AT. Imho it is still seen in Ryans reviews, otherwise i can not explain all the crazy stuff in the last two pieces.

 

[ViRGE]

Ryan have said himself that there have been a bad relationsship from AMD to AT

Huh?

 

[krumme]

Huh?

Yes. Cant find it now. Its back in the comment section for a card review years back. Imho there is nothing wrong with a good relationship. Its part of the work. Relationships is there. And anyway its years back and is probably different today. That my impression reading the reviews.

Its just naive to think the reviewer is some objective person imune to bias standing on a pedestal.

Where Ryan fails big time in the reviews is not stating his personal preferences eg to noise but presenting his subjective impression from 290 as a bare fact. His sli vs cf is just pure bias.

 

[krumme]

Reviewing modern gfx card is surely becomming more and more difficult and more expensive to do properly. Especially when the freq becomes more irrelevant with time as noted by Brent.

Here is therefore another expensive wish to add - lol:

Blindtesting subjective gaming experience for different gfx on similar setup.

So instead of meassuring the card, test and meassure the user experience on 2 or 3 different users with different preferences.

With g-synch, truesound and the difficulty in getting clocks straight (also because uber settings) we need to take a look at the review practices. Make some attemp to stop the old way of reviewing and concentrate on the gaming experience as experienced from the average user.

Perhaps that could also invite new user to the site, with less technical insight.

After all when reading the reviews at anand we demand a fairly high level of preunderstanding, even though its all very well written. Why not concentrate on what is important for everyone no matter if they are nerds or more average users. We are stuck in old habits and need a change.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

There is a report from Sweclockers saying that no aftermarket cards have been announced yet from AIB's due to shortages (although this does conflict with the ASUS ROG report). There have been aftermarket 290s announced, but roll out will not happen en mass until early next year supposedly (according to the article). There may be some scattered ones before then, but supply will be limited. If that is so, that is unfortunate because this card with a really good cooler will perform really well. It is getting held back drastically by the cooler that is on it right now.

The shortage of reference boards is probably because they are stockpiling chips for aftermarket cards.

 

[HurleyBird]

I missed the note on testing methodology when going through the AT review, so the stark contrast between Ryan's commentary and the data being presented was rather unsettling. It made me question if I was reading the graphs right, and Ryan's trustworthiness after going over the data a few times and not seeing his viewpoint reflected in it.

Now that I know what Ryan was doing I can see where the commentary was coming from, but I fear a lot of damage has been done. Probably around half of people who read reviews on launch day skip to the results section and begin from that point, and I doubt many of them left with a favorable impression.

 

[R0H1T]

I missed the note on testing methodology when going through the AT review, so the stark contrast between Ryan's commentary and the data being presented was rather unsettling. It made me question if I was reading the graphs right, and Ryan's trustworthiness after going over the data a few times and not seeing his viewpoint reflected in it.

Now that I know what Ryan was doing I can see where the commentary was coming from, but I fear a lot of damage has been done. Probably around half of people who read reviews on launch day skip to the results section and begin from that point, and I doubt many of them left with a favorable impression.

Yeah that's the thing, it's as if he glossed over the part where the 290/x were excellent bang for buck(i.e. better than 780/Ti) & better at high resolutions for something which is relative, that being noise & it's something which is highly subjective as seen from other reviews which have gotten their cards running at 15~20dB lower than AT's

The thing is most people look at price first & the fact that he over emphasized his personal issues with noise may have inadvertently driven away potential 290/x buyers, when in fact it isn't as bad as has been portrayed thus far, plus it most certainly would have left AMD fuming.

 

[blackened23]

the noise factor upto 55% fan speed is FUD. at uber speed its not loud that it disturbs the user especially from a closed case. scott from techreport and brent from hardocp already confirmed that. after 65% fan speed noise is definitely loud. the point is Nvidia is not going to sell a GTX 780 for USD 400 and AMD is letting the user have that performance for hundred bucks less. if the noise is a big issue slap a custom cooler for 50 bucks and enjoy lower noise than ref GTX 780 and on par with custom GTX 780 for 50 - 100 bucks less. :thumbsup:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1437634/installation-guide-tips-of-rev-2-icy-vision-on-r9-290x

Oh PLEASE dude. I've purchased tons of AMD/ATI cards including a 5870, a 6970 and a 7970. The shroud under the hood for the 290 series is EXACTLY the same. You're sitting here telling me that 55% isn't loud? Get the heck outta here because IT IS LOUD. PERIOD. Have you even OWNED one of these cards, man? Past 45% fan speed you ARE GOING to hear it and it is DEFINITELY loud at 55%. Past 45% is about the threshold where it sounds the same as the Titan shroud at something silly like 80% fan. That's how far the gulf between these cards is, 50%+ is where the cheap garbage AMD shroud starts to sound like a dust buster while the Kepler Titan shroud is pretty darn quiet even at high RPM. AMD could have replicated this by making a similar high quality shroud as the Titan uses. They didn't have to use the fancy materials and they didn't have to match it, but they should have come close to it. But didn't.

With a better 290/290X shroud:

1) Toms controversy would not exist
2) Silent mode throttling would not exist
3) Retail sample variance would not exist
4) The 100+ page thread of complaints about NOISE would not exist
5) 100+ web reviews all mentioning complaints about NOISE would not exist

Instead, if AMD had created a better shroud we would get uber performance with quiet mode acoustics, and have no throttling. Would any of this controversy exist had AMD done this? NO.

Do you see the problem here? By all means keep defending AMD on this until you're blue in the face - but anyone reasonable would have to admit that AMD screwed up. The GPU landscape has changed and people value user experience, and that user experience is being compromised by silent mode throttling. It's also being compromised by uber mode noise. AMD COULD HAVE AND SHOULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS SITUATION. I like the performance of the 290 cards - they are real beasts - but I cannot fathom why anyone would defend this acoustic/throttling situation. It is BS, AMD screwed up here.

Like I said before, I like AMD GPUs, and I wanted to like the 290 series. Performance wise they deliver, but only if you use unnecessarily high fan speeds. This is not a situation that AMD should have let happen in the first place. Period.

 

[railven]

Oh PLEASE dude. I've purchased tons of AMD/ATI cards including a 5870, a 6970 and a 7970. The shroud under the hood for the 290 series is EXACTLY the same. You're sitting here telling me that 55% isn't loud? Get the heck outta here because IT IS LOUD. PERIOD. Have you even OWNED one of these cards, man? Past 45% fan speed you ARE GOING to hear it and it is DEFINITELY loud at 55%. Past 45% is about the threshold where it sounds the same as the Titan shroud at something silly like 80% fan. That's how far the gulf between these cards is, 50%+ is where the cheap garbage AMD shroud starts to sound like a dust buster while the Kepler Titan shroud is pretty darn quiet even at high RPM. AMD could have replicated this by making a similar high quality shroud as the Titan uses. They didn't have to use the fancy materials and they didn't have to match it, but they should have come close to it. But didn't.

Who are you trying to kid here? Give me a break. The only FUD here is YOU trying to say that 45% on the AMD shroud is quiet.

Spot on! When I found out it was the same cooler on the HD 7970, I officially crossed a line on ref R9 290/290X. That cooler was unbearable and since we were all OC-crazy with our HD 7970's the fan levels easily got into >60%.

I swapped that cooler out fast as I could and decided not to support that cooler (or AMD's decision to use) it again.

 

[3DVagabond]

Oh PLEASE dude. I've purchased tons of AMD/ATI cards including a 5870, a 6970 and a 7970. The shroud under the hood for the 290 series is EXACTLY the same. You're sitting here telling me that 55% isn't loud? Get the heck outta here because IT IS LOUD. PERIOD. Have you even OWNED one of these cards, man? Past 45% fan speed you ARE GOING to hear it and it is DEFINITELY loud at 55%. Past 45% is about the threshold where it sounds the same as the Titan shroud at something silly like 80% fan. That's how far the gulf between these cards is, 50%+ is where the cheap garbage AMD shroud starts to sound like a dust buster while the Kepler Titan shroud is pretty darn quiet even at high RPM. AMD could have replicated this by making a similar high quality shroud as the Titan uses. They didn't have to use the fancy materials and they didn't have to match it, but they should have come close to it. But didn't.

With a better 290/290X shroud:

1) Toms controversy would not exist
2) Silent mode throttling would not exist
3) Retail sample variance would not exist
4) The 100+ page thread of complaints about NOISE would not exist
5) 100+ web reviews all mentioning complaints about NOISE would not exist

Instead, if AMD had created a better shroud we would get uber performance with quiet mode acoustics, and have no throttling. Would any of this controversy exist had AMD done this? NO.

Do you see the problem here? By all means keep defending AMD on this until you're blue in the face - but anyone reasonable would have to admit that AMD screwed up. The GPU landscape has changed and people value user experience, and that user experience is being compromised by silent mode throttling. It's also being compromised by uber mode noise. AMD COULD HAVE AND SHOULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS SITUATION. I like the performance of the 290 cards - they are real beasts - but I cannot fathom why anyone would defend this acoustic/throttling situation. It is BS, AMD screwed up here.

Like I said before, I like AMD GPUs, and I wanted to like the 290 series. Performance wise they deliver, but only if you use unnecessarily high fan speeds. This is not a situation that AMD should have let happen in the first place. Period.

The Titan cooler is not the end all be all you are making it sound like. The aftermarket coolers are the true performance coolers. AMD cards will have them as well.

Do you not think everyone has read and understood your view on the AMD cooler the 1st 25(sic) times you wrote it? Why do you feel the need to continually repeat it? People have responded to you many times. The reference cooler was used simply as a placeholder until the aftermarket cards are ready. There isn't much point in spending lots of money like nVidia did to engineer a better cooler that, once the custom models are released, nobody is going to buy. nVidia locked out their board partners from designing their own Titan models and sold complete cards with coolers to all of their board partners for months. That was needed to make the reference cooler investment pay off (that and the $1000 price). AMD isn't going to do that. They are going to allow their partners to make their own cards. That's a win for their partners, being able to make cards that differentiate them from others in the market, and a win for consumers because it introduced Hawaii at a lower price point and allows us to buy the improved cards from their partners. It's not the total lose/lose proposition you are making it out to be.

 

[krumme]

This thread is not about a bad cooler. We have been over that 1000 times. And most have said 5 times its bad. Some have said it 20. Can we move on and stay OT?

 

[blackened23]

This thread is not about a bad cooler. We have been over that 1000 times. And most have said 5 times its bad. Some have said it 20. Can we move on and stay OT?

Oh, I think it is about the cooler. If you can't see the correlation between quiet mode throttling and slower performance being directly related to the low quality shroud employed by AMD, I don't know what to say. This entire thread is about something (eg BIOS switch) indirectly caused by AMD's poor design decisions.

This entire situation should not have happened, there should be no BIOS switch - the user experience should not be compromised to attain maximum performance. Passing the buck to AIB makers is also not the answer - not everyone can use an open air card, as they are much worse for small form factor chassis. Additionally, none of the 27 controversies related to the 290 series would have happened had AMD made a good shroud - no Tom's controversy, no throttling, I could go on here but i've said it all before.

 

[3DVagabond]

Oh, I think it is about the cooler. If you can't see the correlation between quiet mode throttling and slower performance being directly related to the low quality shroud employed by AMD, I don't know what to say. This entire thread is about something (eg BIOS switch) indirectly caused by AMD's poor design decisions.

This entire situation should not have happened, there should be no BIOS switch - the user experience should not be compromised to attain maximum performance.

No, it's not about the cooler. It's about Ryan deciding to only compare the 290X in quiet mode.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

So it would be better if a more efficient cooler added another$50? That extra$50 has a lot of ramifications such as: 290x would be $600 while aftermarket would be $620+. 780 would be $550 and possibly not have a bundle. 780ti would be $750. 290 would be $450 with aftermarket going up to $500.
In the end this cheap cooler is going to save everybody cash. Even those that plan on picking up a 290 with aftermarket cooler which should be the 8800gt of this generation.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Oh, I think it is about the cooler. If you can't see the correlation between quiet mode throttling and slower performance being directly related to the low quality shroud employed by AMD, I don't know what to say. This entire thread is about something (eg BIOS switch) indirectly caused by AMD's poor design decisions.

This entire situation should not have happened, there should be no BIOS switch - the user experience should not be compromised to attain maximum performance. Passing the buck to AIB makers is also not the answer - not everyone can use an open air card, as they are much worse for small form factor chassis. Additionally, none of the 27 controversies related to the 290 series would have happened had AMD made a good shroud - no Tom's controversy, no throttling, I could go on here but i've said it all before.

Toms decided to use the silent mode only.

You can say the card is either loud or that doesn't perform very well. You can't say both. Toms is trying to say it is both.

 

[railven]

So it would be better if a more efficient cooler added another$50? That extra$50 has a lot of ramifications such as: 290x would be $600 while aftermarket would be $620+. 780 would be $550 and possibly not have a bundle. 780ti would be $750. 290 would be $450 with aftermarket going up to $500.
In the end this cheap cooler is going to save everybody cash. Even those that plan on picking up a 290 with aftermarket cooler which should be the 8800gt of this generation.

You get what you pay for. Those of us unhappy with the current cooling solution can wait. That probably isn't what AMD wants to hear and with Nvidia making it harder to wait (dat price cut!) it points out AMD's flaw in the cooling solution.

Even though I'm openly against that cooler, I want the data on it to be used when comparing it to any other card, and more so when custom cooler cards come out because then we can really see just how atrocious that cooler is.

AMD could have had the golden boy card if they strapped a better cooler, or heck why even make reference? Just let AIBs make custom designs I'm sure Sapphire would have provided a few Dual-Xs for review samples.

 

[SiliconWars]

Oh, I think it is about the cooler. If you can't see the correlation between quiet mode throttling and slower performance being directly related to the low quality shroud employed by AMD, I don't know what to say. This entire thread is about something (eg BIOS switch) indirectly caused by AMD's poor design decisions.

This entire situation should not have happened, there should be no BIOS switch - the user experience should not be compromised to attain maximum performance. Passing the buck to AIB makers is also not the answer - not everyone can use an open air card, as they are much worse for small form factor chassis. Additionally, none of the 27 controversies related to the 290 series would have happened had AMD made a good shroud - no Tom's controversy, no throttling, I could go on here but i've said it all before.

It's not about the cooler. It's about double standards. It's about out of the box for one company and not the other.

AMD could have put the best cooler ever on it, set clocks at 1.2 GHz and still had quiet mode where it downclocked to 950 MHz. That wouldn't have changed the FACT that Anandtech would have thrown out the 1.2 GHz results anyway so get it straight, it is NOT about the bad reference cooler so quit with this BS line of thought already.

 

[Keysplayr]

You get what you pay for. Those of us unhappy with the current cooling solution can wait. That probably isn't what AMD wants to hear and with Nvidia making it harder to wait (dat price cut!) it points out AMD's flaw in the cooling solution.

Even though I'm openly against that cooler, I want the data on it to be used when comparing it to any other card, and more so when custom cooler cards come out because then we can really see just how atrocious that cooler is.

AMD could have had the golden boy card if they strapped a better cooler, or heck why even make reference? Just let AIBs make custom designs I'm sure Sapphire would have provided a few Dual-Xs for review samples.

All of this could have been avoided Soooooooooooo easily. But that would involve not being a self destructive entity. AMD apparently does not fall into that category. I have to agree with Blackened23 in that AMD will get no sympathy from me due to their decision. It's not simply the cooler they chose, but that they actually chose it and thought it was good enough. Good enough is not enough in this business and you have to exploit any and all advantages. Why didn't they? I am utterly dumbfounded that they would consciously make that decision.

 

[railven]

All of this could have been avoided Soooooooooooo easily. But that would involve not being a self destructive entity. AMD apparently does not fall into that category. I have to agree with Blackened23 in that AMD will get no sympathy from me due to their decision. It's not simply the cooler they chose, but that they actually chose it and thought it was good enough. Good enough is not enough in this business and you have to exploit any and all advantages. Why didn't they? I am utterly dumbfounded that they would consciously make that decision.

Because some bean counter (or the theory of overstock of them fans) wanted to reduce cost. I get that, they are a corporation, but because of that (ie their self interest) I'm not going to give them a pass for "trying."

Go big or go home.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Yeah poor us... instead of an aftermarket 290 costing$470+ we'll get one for $420 range. I really don't see a downside for those willing to wait for aftermarket coolers.

 

[Keysplayr]

Because some bean counter (or the theory of overstock of them fans) wanted to reduce cost. I get that, they are a corporation, but because of that (ie their self interest) I'm not going to give them a pass for "trying."

Go big or go home.

Exactly right! I feel the same. To save a few dollars in manufacturing costs it will likely cost AMD millions long term not only in this product but also their reputation for not following through to offer a good through and through product, but one that skimps at the finish line and offers them up as a sacrifice to the gods of the judgmental public with uncertainty. OMG this riles me up and I don't know why. I guess it's because I cannot rationalize such a stupid move/decision.

 

[Keysplayr]

Yeah poor us... instead of an aftermarket 290 costing$470+ we'll get one for $420 range. I really don't see a downside for those willing to wait for aftermarket coolers.

Even 450. The cards perform and 450 with a superior cooling solution is WELL worth it. I have no problem paying for a good product.

 

[Keysplayr]

It's not about the cooler. It's about double standards. It's about out of the box for one company and not the other.

AMD could have put the best cooler ever on it, set clocks at 1.2 GHz and still had quiet mode where it downclocked to 950 MHz. That wouldn't have changed the FACT that Anandtech would have thrown out the 1.2 GHz results anyway so get it straight, it is NOT about the bad reference cooler so quit with this BS line of thought already.

You can't know that for sure, and YES it is about the bad reference cooler. It's actually all about it. Don't know why you won't accept that.