Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

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Vattila

Vattila

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Oct 22, 2004
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Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

Untitled2.png


What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts! :)
 
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Thibsie

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Apr 25, 2017
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Kaluan said:
Okay, this has got to be trolling by some at this point. I refuse to believe everyone muttering this has never at least glanced at DDR5 B660/760 motherboard prices. They're just as expensive if not more so than low end B650 offerings. And likely even more skimp on features.

Do people really look at 12th or 13th gen performance numbers (which are almost exclusively sporting fast/non-JEDEC DDR5) then look at a ("D4") super-basic $120 B660 boards and think "gee, I can have all that but for $50 less than those expensive B650 boards!" ?

Just looked at MSI's B760M Mortar WIFI and their B650M Mortar WIFI and the AM5 one is actually cheaper.

So I'm really bewildered about WTH people are on about.

1. ALL DDR5 MOBO OPTIONS COME WITH A PREMIUM, be it AMD or be it Intel.
2. You're not really buying "premium" 13th gen performance if you go DDR4.
3. If you're not building a Intel system based on future proofing and are aware you'll get less performance w/ DDR4 then go for it. But you should probably know AM4 is still a thing too. Often cheaper as well.

Once A620 mobos drop, I hope people can stop with that misguided talking point, AM5 may have the cheapest DDR5 boards on the market.
As far as I can tell, Intel H610 DDR5 boards don't even exist (and I doubt they reliably can run 200W+ CPUs either, but that's another subject).
Click to expand...

Well... It's trolling IMO and it mostly come from the usual suspects.
 
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poke01

poke01

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Can I just once again how powerful and efficient the Non X Zen 4 parts are?

Incredible performance below 80 watts when gaming while still nearly toe to toe with the i5 and i7 13th gen Raptor parts.

TSMC 5nm shines below 100 watts and part of the reason why also Apples M1 were also efficient.

They both have great design but a also node that's not stupid power hungry under load.

Laptop Zen 4 is going to even MORE efficient than Desktop due being Monolithic and it's going to be maybe 1hr to 2hr behind M1 in battery life but that's still great when considering windows is not meant for laptops.


Major reason why Intels not efficient is cause they have NO perf/w philosophy. Apparently Intel did not get that memo till Arrow Lake/Lunar Lake.
 
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naad

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Not really interesting in finding out zen4 efficiency with desktop parts, the i/O die is usually sniffing around 30%+ of the power alone in <100PPT comparisons, while Intel's ringbus is using less than 10W on Raptor dies, their cores get way more power to play with.


Now once phoenix makes it into desktop that will be fair game. Such a shame there's no desktop rembrandt
 
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H

Hitman928

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Asterox said:
As expected, no surprise R5 7600 is a better gaming CPU+AM5 socket+coming soon A620 motherboards.

Click to expand...

He uses DDR4 only for the 13400f. This will compromise its performance, at least somewhat. Maybe not so much at 4K, but for sure at 1080p. It wouldn’t be enough to catch the 7600, but it would close the gap a bit.

With that said, the video is about building a budget gaming PC so using DDR4 to save money probably makes sense, I just don’t like his dismissal of there being a performance difference. I think some acknowledgement of the 5800x3d option would have been good given the purpose of the video and the 5800x3d being pretty much unbeatable at the moment in terms of performance for system cost.
 
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In2Photos

In2Photos

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Hitman928 said:
He uses DDR4 only for the 13400f. This will compromise its performance, at least somewhat. Maybe not so much at 4K, but for sure at 1080p. It wouldn’t be enough to catch the 7600, but it would close the gap a bit.

With that said, the video is about building a budget gaming PC so using DDR4 to save money probably makes sense, I just don’t like his dismissal of there being a performance difference. I think some acknowledgement of the 5800x3d option would have been good given the purpose of the video and the 5800x3d being pretty much unbeatable at the moment in terms of performance for system cost.
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They all say the same thing.

Reviewer: Intel is more budget friendly.
Me: But AMD still has the AM4 platform for budget friendly builds.
Reviewer: But AM4 is a dead platform.
Me: So is LGA 1700.
Reviewer: But I can upgrade to a 13900K later if I want.
Me: You could upgrade to a 5800X3D as well, probably for less. And it won't require a cooler upgrade most likely.
Reviewer: But Intel...
Me: :rolleyes:

Before Christmas I was looking at a 5700X build for my daughter in the $1200-$1300 range. I found that I could do a 7600X for $1388 so that's what I did.
 
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biostud

biostud

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In2Photos said:
They all say the same thing.

Reviewer: Intel is more budget friendly.
Me: But AMD still has the AM4 platform for budget friendly builds.
Reviewer: But AM4 is a dead platform.
Me: So is LGA 1700.
Reviewer: But I can upgrade to a 13900K later if I want.
Me: You could upgrade to a 5800X3D as well, probably for less. And it won't require a cooler upgrade most likely.
Reviewer: But Intel...
Me: :rolleyes:

Before Christmas I was looking at a 5700X build for my daughter in the $1200-$1300 range. I found that I could do a 7600X for $1388 so that's what I did.
Click to expand...
Exactly. When you build a new computer, the total cost difference is so little that there is no reason not to choose a more future proof platform.
 
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lopri

lopri

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Kaluan said:
Just looked at MSI's B760M Mortar WIFI and their B650M Mortar WIFI and the AM5 one is actually cheaper.
Click to expand...
B760 was released like yesterday and the price has not had time to settle yet. Better examples would be something like these:

GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS ELITE AX $259
GIGABYTE X670 AORUS ELITE AX $289

MSI PRO Z790-P WIFI $246
MSI PRO X670-P WIFI $289

I get that AMD want to amortize their investment as quickly as possible. But then why did they release 4 different chipsets that are not much different, adding only to confusion? That is a clear anti-consumer move. It seems like bean counters are winning in AMD board room.
 
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I

itsmydamnation

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Feb 6, 2011
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lopri said:
B760 was released like yesterday and the price has not had time to settle yet. Better examples would be something like these:

GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS ELITE AX $259
GIGABYTE X670 AORUS ELITE AX $289

MSI PRO Z790-P WIFI $246
MSI PRO X670-P WIFI $289

I get that AMD want to amortize their investment as quickly as possible. But then why did they release 4 different chipsets that are not much different, adding only to confusion? That is a clear anti-consumer move. It seems like bean counters are winning in AMD board room.
Click to expand...
This is the dumbest of hot takes...

There is one chipset with 4 different configurations. With two of those configurations being relaxed pci-e requirements which has zero do to with amd revenue.....
 
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eek2121

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poke01 said:
Can I just once again how powerful and efficient the Non X Zen 4 parts are?

Incredible performance below 80 watts when gaming while still nearly toe to toe with the i5 and i7 13th gen Raptor parts.

TSMC 5nm shines below 100 watts and part of the reason why also Apples M1 were also efficient.

They both have great design but a also node that's not stupid power hungry under load.

Laptop Zen 4 is going to even MORE efficient than Desktop due being Monolithic and it's going to be maybe 1hr to 2hr behind M1 in battery life but that's still great when considering windows is not meant for laptops.


Major reason why Intels not efficient is cause they have NO perf/w philosophy. Apparently Intel did not get that memo till Arrow Lake/Lunar Lake.
Click to expand...

The X parts do great in 65W eco mode as well. They also have the advantage of being better binned.
 
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Hitman928

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HWUB just tested the Intel 13500 with DDR4 and DDR5. As expected, the DDR5 config shows higher performance (11%). It still trails the AMD 7600 by about 10% but using fast DDR5 cuts the gap in half. Just data that shows the previous reviewer being ignorant in dismissing DDR5 as having no real performance advantage. The DDR4 system does have a small perf/$ advantage, but I don't know if $65 is really enough to not justify stepping up to DDR5 and higher performance. Good to have data for both though so the consumer can make an informed decision.

1674316075654.png

1674316123021.png

 
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Saylick

Saylick

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nicalandia

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Saylick said:
My guess is the non-V$ die can be overclocked just like any other Zen 4 X SKU, but the V$ die will be limited by the cache itself. You might be able to squeeze out 100-200 MHz out of the V$ CCD?
Click to expand...
Even if that's the case(highly likely) it will increase overall performance for Overall MT Workloads as to not hold it back when compared to the standard 7950X while providing generational leap gaming performance

Also this

1674505662140.png

It appears that the 7800X3D will also be unlocked.
 
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Hitman928

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nicalandia said:
Even if that's the case(highly likely) it will increase overall performance for Overall MT Workloads as to not hold it back when compared to the standard 7950X while providing generational leap gaming performance

Also this

View attachment 75185

It appears that the 7800X3D will also be unlocked.
Click to expand...

Didn't AMD say that you wouldn't be able to manually overclock Zen4-3D but that you could use PBO?
 
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In2Photos

In2Photos

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Videocarz.com thinks it's just yet another error by AMD since they announced that they would not be unlocked for overclocking, only PBO and curve optimizer would be available.
 
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In2Photos

In2Photos

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Exist50 said:
Would be one heck of a screw up if they changed it to be incorrect, but the alternative is pretty weird as well.
Click to expand...
Well they did put on their website that the CPUs would be available on Feb 14, and then immediately said that was incorrect. So right now they don't any free passes! :tearsofjoy:

But if it is unlocked that would be awesome!
 
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