Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[moinmoin]

Besides Genoa, Bergamo, Siena and maybe Genoa-X, what are the odds we get some teaser details on Turin/Zen5?

All I expect is an aside on AMD's steady execution with a potentially updated/extended roadmap and maybe some comparisons of some parameters with industry averages again. Beyond that? This is not an event targeted at lesser mortal consumers, so no.

What I'm wondering is whether AMD would ever make Zen4c/Zen5c + V-cache. I'd think that it would give a much higher density and efficiency compared to normal Zen4/Zen5, especially if they can use cache die using n-1 process node.

Unlikely since TSVs take space as well, and on those dense CCDs space is at a premium compared to the normal CCDs.

 

[Kaluan]

Alls I'm saying is that maybe we'll get a slighty more detailed roadmap than the one shown at the "together we advances_PCs" event (which was a surprise for me). Osborne Effect aside 😅

 

[nicalandia]

Launches and Mirrors: AMD EPYC Genoa and Intel Xeon Sapphire Rapids.

Launches and Mirrors AMD EPYC Genoa and Intel Xeon Sapphire Rapids

AMD EPYC Genoa launches on 2022-11-10 and Intel Xeon Sapphire Rapids on 2023-01-10. The definition of launch, however, is fairly fluid

www.servethehome.com

"From a platform maturity perspective and from the systems we have seen, it actually feels like SPR platforms are more mature at this point, just waiting on chips."

I would say that at the very least a 2020 System Product(Motherboards, IO, CPU) should feel very mature on 2023.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Anyone concerned about AMD Advantage desktops featuring 7950X? This means that the Zen4X3D isn't coming in 2022. Sadly, my fear is that AMD will take its sweet time and launch sometime in Feb or Mar, because now their limited V-cache supply has to be split between Zen4 CPUs and RDNA3 GPUs.

 

[Thibsie]

Anyone concerned about AMD Advantage desktops featuring 7950X? This means that the Zen4X3D isn't coming in 2022. Sadly, my fear is that AMD will take its sweet time and launch sometime in Feb or Mar, because now their limited V-cache supply has to be split between Zen4 CPUs and RDNA3 GPUs.

This would mean those vcache would come from the same wafers or at least the same process.
Is that really the case ?

 

[nicalandia]

Anyone concerned about AMD Advantage desktops featuring 7950X? This means that the Zen4X3D isn't coming in 2022.

It's been known that Zen4X3D will be announced on CES 2023 and launch later. Zen4X3D is bringing at least 15% on top of Zen4, that's enough to hold the gaming crown until MTL-S late 2024

 

[igor_kavinski]

It's been known that Zen4X3D will be announced on CES 2023 and launch later.

That's not the point. Point is, they are pushing the AMD Advantage gaming desktop with Radeon 7900 XTX and a non-gaming productivity focused 7950X. Must be desperate to make some quick money. Couldn't wait until the X3D was ready to really show the "Advantage"?

 

[igor_kavinski]

This would mean those vcache would come from the same wafers or at least the same process.
Is that really the case ?

Yeah they said it's 2nd gen 6nm V-cache whereas GPU chiplet is 5nm.

 

[DrMrLordX]

That's not the point. Point is, they are pushing the AMD Advantage gaming desktop with Radeon 7900 XTX and a non-gaming productivity focused 7950X. Must be desperate to make some quick money. Couldn't wait until the X3D was ready to really show the "Advantage"?

Whoever is or isn't "desperate" has little to do with when Raphael-X will launch. And there shouldn't be any wafer supply problem.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Whoever is or isn't "desperate" has little to do with when Raphael-X will launch.

You don't find the pairing of 7900 XTX and 7950X ridiculous? AMD is telling gamers that this is the premium gaming experience. Typical gamer sees the marketing and ads and buys it. Few months later, AMD releases X3D. Now gamer sees his "premium" gaming machine getting beaten by relatively cheaper DIY desktops with X3D. Do you really expect the gamer to not utter an expletive at that point? It's just a really bad move by AMD.

 

[nicalandia]

....

You don't find the pairing of 7900 XTX and 7950X ridiculous? AMD is telling gamers that this is the premium gaming experience. Typical gamer sees the marketing and ads and buys it. Few months later, AMD releases X3D. Now gamer sees his "premium" gaming machine getting beaten by relatively cheaper DIY desktops with X3D. Do you really expect the gamer to not utter an expletive at that point? It's just a really bad move by AMD.

By the time the X3D is released there will be 4090 Ti(or very close to release) You can't really beat that combo with any GPU or CPU for the next 2 years(Budget Be Damned)


And to be Brutally Honest, Whoever buys a 7950X and a 7900XTX for gaming only is really not smart to begin with.

The absolute best all AMD Gaming PC in early 2023 will be a X470 MB, 5800X3D and 7900XTX for the price of a single 4090.. That right there is Both "Smart and Top of the line" High End Gaming.!

 

[DrMrLordX]

You don't find the pairing of 7900 XTX and 7950X ridiculous?

No. The 7950X is a great gaming CPU, full stop. Plus it's their most-expensive consumer CPU so why not feature it? If Raphael-X were available now, they'd feature that instead, but it isn't. They're going to upsell their latest flagship CPU no matter what.

 

[In2Photos]

You don't find the pairing of 7900 XTX and 7950X ridiculous? AMD is telling gamers that this is the premium gaming experience. Typical gamer sees the marketing and ads and buys it. Few months later, AMD releases X3D. Now gamer sees his "premium" gaming machine getting beaten by relatively cheaper DIY desktops with X3D. Do you really expect the gamer to not utter an expletive at that point? It's just a really bad move by AMD.

No different than Intel releasing a KS variant.

 

[moinmoin]

Sadly, my fear is that AMD will take its sweet time and launch sometime in Feb or Mar

According to Greymon we shouldn't expect it earlier anyway:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1576142814651756545

Though if high volume production only started a couple weeks ago it was likely more down to TSMC.

 

[A///]

Waste of my time.

 

[RnR_au]

...
now their limited V-cache supply has to be split between Zen4 CPUs and RDNA3 GPUs.

Given the bandwidth to the MDC in the RDNA3 gpu's, its uncertain now if AMD would ever release a vcache 7000 gpu model.

According to Greymon we shouldn't expect it earlier anyway:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1576142814651756545

Though if high volume production only started a couple weeks ago it was likely more down to TSMC.

Greymon removed his twitter account. That should tell you everything you need to know about his predictions.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Woops, there goes Greymon. Did anyone get a screenie of that tweet before he axed it?

 

[cortexa99]

Greymon removed his twitter account. That should tell you everything you need to know about his predictions.

Woops, there goes Greymon. Did anyone get a screenie of that tweet before he axed it?

woooo, looks like he forecasted RDNA3 absolutely wrong, he decided to axed himself as a result. I saw him somewhere he apologized all the way due to RDNA3 mis-prediction.

 

[A///]

and nothing of value was lost.

 

[DisEnchantment]

Greymon removed his twitter account. That should tell you everything you need to know about his predictions.

May the source be with him.
He has enriched many a ClickTubers with views.

 

[biostud]

With 2.7x increased speed on the infinity cache on RDNA3 vs RDNA2, do you believe we will see similar improvements with vcache?

 

[RnR_au]

With 2.7x increased speed on the infinity cache on RDNA3 vs RDNA2, do you believe we will see similar improvements with vcache?

They are different techs. But there could be an improvement in bandwidth...

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ryzen-7000-3d-v-cache-cpus-may-offer-even-more-bandwidth-than-first-gen-counterparts

 

[deasd]

this guy tested SPECint with various mobile cpu include 7950x,5950x, Zen4 clocks below 5Ghz showed a same level efficiency as M1 Max

https://twitter.com/x/status/1587136098052231169

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

Zen4 Deep Dive by CnC. In the first part they concentrated on the Front-End. As always a highly informative article.
Reinforces why people should forgive them their CPUID hoax.

AMD’s Zen 4 Part 1: Frontend and Execution Engine

AMD’s Zen 4 architecture has been hotly anticipated by many in the tech sphere; as a result many rumors were floating around about its performance gains prior to its release. In February 2021…

chipsandcheese.com

 

[biostud]

They are different techs. But there could be an improvement in bandwidth...

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ryzen-7000-3d-v-cache-cpus-may-offer-even-more-bandwidth-than-first-gen-counterparts

Hopefully they're dumping the 5800X3D prices now, because they know once 7800X3D is launched, that is what everyone wants.